Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tommy Callahan]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

If nothing else I hope I've done you a service and if you pay a bit more attention to what's playing out in this game of global intrigue rather buying Washington's feel-good story it will help you minimize the personal impact of the the negative consequences all of us will experience as all of these initiatives reach critical mass.         

I just wish the adults would be seeking peace vs war for the MIC and some BS geopolitical game. 

 

I cant even get any war supporter to actually state what the goal of the war is?  pre 2014 borders?

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just now, Chris farley said:

I just wish the adults would be seeking peace vs war for the MIC and some BS geopolitical game. 

 

I cant even get any war supporter to actually state what the goal of the war is?  pre 2014 borders?

 

 

 

Agree 100%.   

[Roundybout]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Not sure.  
 

Kind of like the wet market stay 6 feet apart flu. 
 

Team Mask all fell right to Team Ukraine.  
 

Absolutely stunning.  
 

Scientists - one’s allowed in a future free society allowed to question and critically think are going to be studying the very real things Doctor Robert Malone said were happening to these deranged scared insecure fascist lunatics but was banned off CCP TWITTER (that we were also told was absolutely not rigging their algorithms to influence public opinion). 

 

 

Go……Ukraine 

 

Let's see: 

 

Either Ukraine is faking a conflict in order to launder money for Biden, start WWIII, and usher in the NWO all while faking combat footage, casualty rates, bombed out cities, etc...

 

or

 

Putin, an aging oligarch, decided he wanted to invade Ukraine out of a fear of NATO and a grand dream of reuniting the USSR before he died. 

 

Occam's Razor, anyone?

2 hours ago, Chris farley said:

I just wish the adults would be seeking peace vs war for the MIC and some BS geopolitical game. 

 

I cant even get any war supporter to actually state what the goal of the war is?  pre 2014 borders?

 

 

 

 

Ask Putin, who started it. 

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

No.  There isn’t.  Not the sense you think.  Who is fighting who exactly?  Is Team Ukraine actually fighting for “their country?”  What country was this?  A George Soros money laundering operation?  Exactly

 

 

 

 

Now The people telling you this is an “epic battle for democracy” from behind their face diapers and mandated vaccines, just named a Twitter account that posts videos made by the very people themselves saying or doing the things they want to pretend aren’t real, as a “misinformer of the year.”

 

 

I have more proof this is a Jussie Smullet “war” then you do that it’s something we should be pouring 100s of billions of dollars into.  

 

Libs of Tiktok is as close to the "2 Minute Hate" from 1984 that we are ever going to get. 

 

Also kindly go ask the families of those killed in Russian attacks on cities how fake it is. 

 

Blind contrarianism is such a silly, tiring ideology, as well as an unamerican one. 

[ChiGoose]

2 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

Let's see: 

 

Either Ukraine is faking a conflict in order to launder money for Biden, start WWIII, and usher in the NWO all while faking combat footage, casualty rates, bombed out cities, etc...

 

or

 

Putin, an aging oligarch, decided he wanted to invade Ukraine out of a fear of NATO and a grand dream of reuniting the USSR before he died. 

 

Occam's Razor, anyone?

 

Ask Putin, who started it. 

 

Occam's Razor is anathema to this board...

[gobills404]

Here’s a recap of the speech Zelensky gave to congress for anyone who missed it

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, Roundybout said:

 

 

Libs of Tiktok is as close to the "2 Minute Hate" from 1984 that we are ever going to get. 

 

Also kindly go ask the families of those killed in Russian attacks on cities how fake it is. 
 

 

 

I’m sure they’re angry. 
 

I have lots of unanswered questions for Wet Market Xi but I guess I should stop asking.  

Edited December 23, 2022 by Big Blitz

[Tommy Callahan]

16 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

 

I don't think supporting Ukraine to this extent was the original plan. If I remember correctly, the Biden administration offered to pull Zelensky out of Kyiv and set up a government-in-exile when Ukraine inevitably fell to the Russians. Based on the poor performance of the Ukrainian military in 2014, there was little expectation that they would have much success against the much larger and better-resourced Russian military.

 

But after Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, Ukraine changed it's military posture from a post-Soviet strategy to one aspiring to NATO standards. The goal was to better adhere to how Western militaries worked (valuing the lives of the soldier, delegation of control to NCO's in the field, advanced Western weaponry, etc.) instead of continuing the Russian model of meat grinders and a kleptocratic military leadership, which had clearly failed.

 

What we didn't realize was how successful they had been. I think if we had known, we may have provided them more arms prior to the invasion. But we thought this was basically the same army that got its ass handed to it 6 years prior and had basically no chance of winning. Instead, they surprised the world and repelled the initial invasion in the north on their own, though they still struggled in the east and south. Once it became apparent that the individual Ukrainian units were far superior to their Russian counterparts, the question became: what support do they need to actually win this thing (or at the least, get back to the 2014 borders via truce)?

 

In the end, a Ukrainian defeat of the Russian army aligns with the United States' global strategic goals and diminishes the powers of those who wish to take the global hegemony away from us and put it in the hands of the China-Russia-Iran (and maybe India?) axis. For just a fraction of our budget and none of our blood, that seems a worthy investment to me.

interesting revision. Ukraine had a revolution in (Euromaidan) 2013/14. Remember Cynthia Nolan giving out food in Kiev Square.

 

Then the Crimea/Dumbas region revolted against government that replaced the one that was removed in the revolution.

 

Whats the goal of the war?  for ukraine to take that territory back?

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Chris farley

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, Chris farley said:

I just wish the adults would be seeking peace vs war for the MIC and some BS geopolitical game. 

 

I cant even get any war supporter to actually state what the goal of the war is?  pre 2014 borders?

 

 

 

 

It’s about …… democracy!

 

Just like the fights for democracy that Marx, Trotsky, Lenin, Fidel, Mao, Che, Pol Pot, and Obama talk about.  
 

Democracy!  

[OrangeBills]

16 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

 

I don't think supporting Ukraine to this extent was the original plan. If I remember correctly, the Biden administration offered to pull Zelensky out of Kyiv and set up a government-in-exile when Ukraine inevitably fell to the Russians. Based on the poor performance of the Ukrainian military in 2014, there was little expectation that they would have much success against the much larger and better-resourced Russian military.

 

But after Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, Ukraine changed it's military posture from a post-Soviet strategy to one aspiring to NATO standards. The goal was to better adhere to how Western militaries worked (valuing the lives of the soldier, delegation of control to NCO's in the field, advanced Western weaponry, etc.) instead of continuing the Russian model of meat grinders and a kleptocratic military leadership, which had clearly failed.

 

What we didn't realize was how successful they had been. I think if we had known, we may have provided them more arms prior to the invasion. But we thought this was basically the same army that got its ass handed to it 6 years prior and had basically no chance of winning. Instead, they surprised the world and repelled the initial invasion in the north on their own, though they still struggled in the east and south. Once it became apparent that the individual Ukrainian units were far superior to their Russian counterparts, the question became: what support do they need to actually win this thing (or at the least, get back to the 2014 borders via truce)?

 

In the end, a Ukrainian defeat of the Russian army aligns with the United States' global strategic goals and diminishes the powers of those who wish to take the global hegemony away from us and put it in the hands of the China-Russia-Iran (and maybe India?) axis. For just a fraction of our budget and none of our blood, that seems a worthy investment to me.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. 

 

There actually (as I recall) was really no military defense of Crimea at all, Russia just rolled in their Men in Black and annexed the territory.  Don't think a shot was fired.  They also infiltrated other Men in Black into those Eastern sections of Ukraine back then too...

 

Now, to your point, no doubt over the ensuing 6-7 years, Ukraine realized they had to beef up their defenses, and they had.  

 

I'll acknowledge that at the beginning of this current conflict, Russia's aims were grander (Kyiv, Regime Change) such that the Ukraine/US response had to flex accordingly, so I get that.  But that was essentially over after a few months, whereby Russia focused on the Eastern sections that had really been in conflict/occupied over the last 8 years anyway.  

 

So, what's changed from "give them Russian-leaning Crimea 8 years ago, fine" to "at all costs defend the Eastern Russian-leaning sections of Ukraine - back to original borders" strategy?

 

I think there's something a lot bigger going on, that we're not being told about.  Starting with COVID (there are 4,000,000 cities and towns in the world, and COVID came out of the one with China's bioweapons lab?  Uh huh), now the re-alignment along "Energy & Natural Resources" of Russia, China, Middle East and even India, and now a picture begins to emerge.

 

There's a Global East vs. West war going on that is probably just getting going, started by the Leftist Western Civilization self-weakening around eco-Green energy production concerns which left their societies weak and susceptible.  

 

The interesting part...our MAD system was probably centered around conflict with one nation.  I wonder if we've contemplated Nuclear war against a bloc of like-minded nations?

 

 

[ChiGoose]

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

interesting revision. Ukraine had a revolution in 2013/14.  The dumbas region revolted against the results of that revolution.  they even had elections and everything.

 

Whats the goal of the war?  for ukraine to take that territory back?

 

 

 

Wait, do you think the elections held in the Donbas were legitimate? Or that there weren't Russian forces driving the "revolution"?

 

You should ask the Russians what the goal of the war is since they started it. Ukraine is the defender. They didn't ask for this.

 

What kind of peace deal would be acceptable to Ukraine is an interesting question. Early on, maybe they would have settled for returning to Minsk agreement. But after the war crimes in Bucha and other areas, I'm not sure Ukraine would accept any Ukrainians living under Russian rule and therefore would want to go back to the original borders from 1991.

 

In any case, a defeat of Russia in this conflict is good for the US.

[LDD]

So, what's the answer here if it's apparently not to support Ukraine in a proxy war against an invading nation controlled by a dictatorial murderer?  I understand the idea of brokering a peace but that has to start with at least semi-willing participants and Russia has zero interest in that.  The Ukranians currently do not either considering the fact that the Russians have committed atrocious war crimes and are losing the battlefield daily. 

 

Lots of conspiracies being thrown around here about a former actor who became a war time president.  Clearly the Ukranian government isn't perfect but Russia and its ally Iran are unequivocally the enemy of our country.  Why would we not help an aspiring European democracy defend their homeland? 

The overwhelming majority of a divided congress is together on this.  Isn't that something? 

[Tommy Callahan]

Just now, ChiGoose said:

 

Wait, do you think the elections held in the Donbas were legitimate? Or that there weren't Russian forces driving the "revolution"?

 

You should ask the Russians what the goal of the war is since they started it. Ukraine is the defender. They didn't ask for this.

 

What kind of peace deal would be acceptable to Ukraine is an interesting question. Early on, maybe they would have settled for returning to Minsk agreement. But after the war crimes in Bucha and other areas, I'm not sure Ukraine would accept any Ukrainians living under Russian rule and therefore would want to go back to the original borders from 1991.

 

In any case, a defeat of Russia in this conflict is good for the US.

When did they start this said war?

you imply they are illegitimate?  why? 

 

And both countries have recorded war crimes at this point.

 

So the Euromaidan revolution was kosher?

 

the Crimea revolution from the results of the Euromaidan are not?  even with an election.

 

But you know what. if we send the Ukrainians more weapons, I am positive it will result in those people's lives being dramatically improved.

 

SMH

 

America loves democracy, till the people vote the wrong way. then we love the coups.

 

its kinda our MO at this point.

 

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

3 minutes ago, LDD said:

 

 

Lots of conspiracies being thrown around here about a former actor who became a war time president.  Clearly the Ukranian government isn't perfect but Russia and its ally Iran are unequivocally the enemy of our country. 

 

Are they?

 

Trump says Russia isn’t an enemy.

 

Obama let Iran develop Nukes and had no problem turning the ME over to them.  
 

Im super confused now.  

[Tommy Callahan]

4 minutes ago, LDD said:

So, what's the answer here if it's apparently not to support Ukraine in a proxy war against an invading nation controlled by a dictatorial murderer?  I understand the idea of brokering a peace but that has to start with at least semi-willing participants and Russia has zero interest in that.  The Ukranians currently do not either considering the fact that the Russians have committed atrocious war crimes and are losing the battlefield daily. 

 

Lots of conspiracies being thrown around here about a former actor who became a war time president.  Clearly the Ukranian government isn't perfect but Russia and its ally Iran are unequivocally the enemy of our country.  Why would we not help an aspiring European democracy defend their homeland? 

The overwhelming majority of a divided congress is together on this.  Isn't that something? 

Its funny how you all keep calling it a democracy. This all started with the euromaidan.  not very democratic.

 

[SoCal Deek]

Back and forth and back and forth.

The ONLY question is why did Putin choose to invade in 2022? I think everyone knows the answer. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Back and forth and back and forth.

The ONLY question is why did Putin choose to invade in 2022? I think everyone knows the answer. 

 

I got you fam.  Because his intelligence services told him the Ukrainian army was a joke, it's people were either apathetic materialists or Russian sympathizers. Its leaders were a gang of corrupt Western puppets...meaning Russia could attack and take the country so fast any western response would be too little and too late.  And their occupation would enjoy a broad level of popular support leading to swift annexation of the Russian Federation to Ukraine.  Totally foolproof! 

 

I mean, that's the answer EVERYONE knows. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I got you fam.  Because his intelligence services told him the Ukrainian army was a joke, it's people were either apathetic materialists or Russian sympathizers. Its leaders were a gang of corrupt Western puppets...meaning Russia could attack and take the country so fast any western response would be too little and too late.  And their occupation would enjoy a broad level of popular support leading to swift annexation of the Russian Federation to Ukraine.  Totally foolproof! 

 

I mean, that's the answer EVERYONE knows. 

 

 

And all of that only happened in 2022? Sure….keep selling those talking points. Somebody is bound to buy them. 

[ChiGoose]

4 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I got you fam.  Because his intelligence services told him the Ukrainian army was a joke, it's people were either apathetic materialists or Russian sympathizers. Its leaders were a gang of corrupt Western puppets...meaning Russia could attack and take the country so fast any western response would be too little and too late.  And their occupation would enjoy a broad level of popular support leading to swift annexation of the Russian Federation to Ukraine.  Totally foolproof! 

 

I mean, that's the answer EVERYONE knows. 

 

 

 

When you have been the murderous ruler of a kleptocracy for decades, you end up surrounded by the most sycophantic people, not the brightest. Putin created an echo chamber of yes-men and is now learning the cost.

 

Of course, it's not him out there dying in the trenches, so no reason to change course yet...

[Big Blitz]

Can’t wait to see the math and utter panic when the CCP and WHO (which will say so after telling the world nothing to see here) release the virus with a 10% IFR

 

Man.  Gonna be full prison camps - it’s why they need you to get used to eating insects.  
 

 

 

You lunatics have no clue what you opened the door to in March 2020.  Cowards.  All you.   I’m sure warning about a global shut down and 6 feet for life back in 2019 because they want Trumpism gone was crazy talk to…..or not libs will go along with any and statist policies that lead to the end of liberty, freedom, America.  
 

But look -  Ukraine and Democracy!!!

Edited December 23, 2022 by Big Blitz