Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I know, the cry babies are REALLY unhappy now 

Tried having a regular conversation and you immediately retreat to this stuff? 
 

Sheeeesh

Edited October 21, 2022 by SoCal Deek

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tried having a regular conversation and you immediately retreat to this stuff? 
 

Sheeeesh

Don't bother, @Tiberius won't even commit to the concept that we should not give Nukes to Ukraine, I don't think he is capable of having a regular conversation on the topic. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

21 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Quote

 

So you didn't answer the question.

Instead you assert that I want to do something that I have never suggested.

You simply made it up.

Can you answer the question or not?

 

 

My answer is the central point of my argument. I repeated it to see if you'd actually argue against me.  You didn't, you argued against what you wanted to argue against, rather than what I argued (ain't broke, we're getting awesome results, don't change anything).  Is my point unreasonable?

 

21 hours ago, sherpa said:

Quote

The reason I asked the question is that i am quite familiar with the history of weapons transfers into very unfriendly hands during surrogate war operations.

 

 

Ah, so you were making a "Gotcha!" post so you could try and mikedrop on me with your knowledge.  That's dishonest debating.  Is there any reason why I should believe have the expertise you claim to have?  Can you prove it?

 

21 hours ago, sherpa said:

Quote

I want to know how someone on this site can claim there is adequate oversight, which is what you did.

 

No, I argued that all of what we're doing is working just fine to support Ukraine and we shouldn't change it.  I supported my argument with evidence that anybody anywhere can look at for themselves.  So they can see if it supports my conclusion.  What part of my conclusion is wrong?

 

21 hours ago, sherpa said:

Quote

 

Remember Benghazi?

Know what a big part of the CIA presence there was for?

I'll give you a hint.......It's related to this subject.

 

 

So the CIA lets you in on their operations?  And your posting about it here, where anybody can read about it?  That's not very responsible of the CIA.

 

21 hours ago, sherpa said:

That is why I asked the question.

 

 

Good!  I'm looking forward to your reply.  We're both honest guys so this should be a constructive conversation.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[sherpa]

I asked a simple question, based on something you authored.

I asked how you were aware that "the current level of oversight is just fine," a claim that you made. 

You didn't answer.

Instead you said that I wanted t fix something that isn't broke, which is nonsense and never a claim I have made.

That is your invention.

 

My assertion is that there is no way that someone here has any idea of what level of oversight is occurring with this massive transfer of extremely sophisticated weaponry to an area known for gross corruption, so if you do, I'd be very interested to hear the basis for your confidence.

 

You still haven't answered that.

 

As background for my view, and regarding what has happened in the near past, the US and other countries have provided weapons to many other parties.

A dangerous number of those weapons have been traded on the black market and ended up in the hands of really ad people who intended to use them for really bad outcomes.

 

The industry I was in was made aware that a number of shoulder mounted anti aircraft weapons were in that market, for sale to any bidder, and that area of Libya was a trading location, and that the US was trying to get them off the market. You can connect the dots.

 

The point is, that it is nearly impossible to stop this trade, and I have no doubt that someone in the supply chain has come upon a windfall profit, and that somewhere in some province of China,  Russia or Iran, sophisticated weapons are being studied and reverse engineered, as has been goin on for decades,

 

The debacle that was the Afghanistan withdrawal gives me cause for great concern over this administration's "oversight" capability.

Thus the question I posed.

What evidence do you have to claim the "oversight" is just dandy?  

 

[Tenhigh]

23 hours ago, BillStime said:

Priceless. 

Everyone dies, priceless.  

[Tiberius]

18 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Don't bother, @Tiberius won't even commit to the concept that we should not give Nukes to Ukraine, I don't think he is capable of having a regular conversation on the topic. 

I am, some, like you, are not worth the effort. 

 

 

[Tenhigh]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I am, some, like you, are not worth the effort. 

 

 

Why am I not worth the effort? It's straight forward, no?

 

Oddly, you have put in a ton of effort NOT to answer a simple yes or no question.   

[Tiberius]

Seeing a lot of this on twitter, hope it's true 

 

 

7 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Why am I not worth the effort? It's straight forward, no?

 

Oddly, you have put in a ton of effort NOT to answer a simple yes or no question.   

You can't even state the simple relevance of the question, which means there is no relevance to me. Pointless 

[Tiberius]

Ya, lets negotiate with people that do this 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:16 PM, sherpa said:

 

What evidence do you have to claim the "oversight" is just dandy?  

 

 

The results, demonstrated over time.  Again, if it's not broke, don't fix it. 

 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

The results, demonstrated over time.  Again, if it's not broke, don't fix it. 

 

 

The results have not been demonstrated over time, and the Pentagon, Interpol, the EU and of course the Russians have  do not share your view as yet, and have expressed the same concern that I have regarding oversight of the weapons delivery and subsequent supply line integrity to Ukrainian military.  

 

[Tiberius]

6 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

The results have not been demonstrated over time, and the Pentagon, Interpol, the EU and of course the Russians have  do not share your view as yet, and have expressed the same concern that I have regarding oversight of the weapons delivery and subsequent supply line integrity to Ukrainian military.  

 

You have proof of widespread violations to the integrity of the supply lines? 

[sherpa]

37 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You have proof of widespread violations to the integrity of the supply lines? 

 

If you have read the last couple pages in this thread, you wouldn't ask this question.

What I said at the very beginning of this aid effort, many, many months ago, is that I was quite concerned about these weapons getting into the wrong hands, and the high probability of technology transfer.

Those two things happen every time there is a surrogate style war with weapons provided by other countries.

 

Further, the weapons that make it to the black market do not show up during the supply because it would expose the corruption and end the supply line access.  That's how it works.

[Tiberius]

11 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

If you have read the last couple pages in this thread, you wouldn't ask this question.

What I said at the very beginning of this aid effort, many, many months ago, is that I was quite concerned about these weapons getting into the wrong hands, and the high probability of technology transfer.

Those two things happen every time there is a surrogate style war with weapons provided by other countries.

 

Further, the weapons that make it to the black market do not show up during the supply because it would expose the corruption and end the supply line access.  That's how it works.

No proof? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

23 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No proof? 

The is a message board and not a court of law so what exactly is the burden of proof here?  A poster, Sherpa, that has expressed views based on previous personal and professional experience that weapons transfers like those happening with Ukraine have a lot of security and handling gaps like chain of custody tracking if I might mention one.  And that based on firsthand experience with such transfers its likely this applies to weapons and technology transfers here where some items might find there way into the black market.  Add in a known high level of corruption in Ukraine and the US administration's effort to block all calls and efforts for oversight and accounting and I find there's a high probability that the conclusion is very plausible.  Especially considering its run by an administration that had little to no concern about leaving some $60B of US weapons behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban.  I suspect a lot of those weapons have ended up on the black market too as the regime there tries to raise some cash to meet expenses. 

I mean, as for "proof", do you expect somebody from the civilian US government or the Pentagon to confess and expose their incompetence and lack of accountability or some on-the-ball investigative reporter to expose the mess?  Or Zelensky or some connected Ukrainian oligarch telling us he's made 100's of millions off US weapons transfers?

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The is a message board and not a court of law so what exactly is the burden of proof here?  A poster, Sherpa, that has expressed views based on previous personal and professional experience that weapons transfers like those happening with Ukraine have a lot of security and handling gaps like chain of custody tracking if I might mention one.  And that based on firsthand experience with such transfers its likely this applies to weapons and technology transfers here where some items might find there way into the black market.  Add in a known high level of corruption in Ukraine and the US administration's effort to block all calls and efforts for oversight and accounting and I find there's a high probability that the conclusion is very plausible.  Especially considering its run by an administration that had little to no concern about leaving some $60B of US weapons behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban.  I suspect a lot of those weapons have ended up on the black market too as the regime there tries to raise some cash to meet expenses. 

I mean, as for "proof", do you expect somebody from the civilian US government or the Pentagon to confess and expose their incompetence and lack of accountability or some on-the-ball investigative reporter to expose the mess?  Or Zelensky or some connected Ukrainian oligarch telling us he's made 100's of millions off US weapons transfers?

Still no proof? Ok 

[Doc]

It's hilarious.  Most Dems couldn't even have told you Ukraine was a country, much less where it was on a map, and now it's suddenly the most important country there is, even more so than the US.  

[Tiberius]

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

It's hilarious.  Most Dems couldn't even have told you Ukraine was a country, much less where it was on a map, and now it's suddenly the most important country there is, even more so than the US.  

You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. 

[Doc]

22 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. 

 

Sure we do.  It just falls on deaf and dumb ears.

[Tenhigh]

On 10/22/2022 at 9:08 PM, Tiberius said:

Seeing a lot of this on twitter, hope it's true 

 

You can't even state the simple relevance of the question, which means there is no relevance to me. Pointless 

I have, repeatedly. How far are you willing to go in your support of Ukraine?  Why are you so afraid to answer the simple question, nukes or no nukes?