All_Pro_Bills Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 Announcements this morning that Russia is withdrawing troop from border areas. Conflicting stories whether its some or all. And as I suggested exit the manufactured narrative an attack is imminent and enter the manufactured narrative Joe Biden is a tough and effective leader that stared down Putin narrative. All CNN scripts and talking points in the process of replacement with the new theme. Let's get those approval rating up! Now there's an issue the Democrats can run on in November. Which is "if we lose the House or Senate Putin will be emboldened". I'll say one thing. These guys are good at creating illusions. 1
BillStime Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 25 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Announcements this morning that Russia is withdrawing troop from border areas. Conflicting stories whether its some or all. And as I suggested exit the manufactured narrative an attack is imminent and enter the manufactured narrative Joe Biden is a tough and effective leader that stared down Putin narrative. All CNN scripts and talking points in the process of replacement with the new theme. Let's get those approval rating up! Now there's an issue the Democrats can run on in November. Which is "if we lose the House or Senate Putin will be emboldened". I'll say one thing. These guys are good at creating illusions. Has Fox News started covering Trumps accounting nightmares or are they still in Lock Her Up mode? 1
OrangeBills Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 If you were going to invade Ukraine, you would do so in late Spring, early Summer, NOT in Winter when all your massive machines would stuck in a foot of gunk all over the place. That is if your goal was annexation and not annihilation (which could happen from the air) If you wanted to bully the Europeans who are dependent on your Nat Gas because of their Green Energy fantasies, you'd do so in the Winter by building up an invasion force that you weren't planning to use, but wanted deep concessions. Getting the Ukraine to Finland status alone probably worth several Billion rubles of "Training Expense"
SoCal Deek Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 1 minute ago, OrangeBills said: If you were going to invade Ukraine, you would do so in late Spring, early Summer, NOT in Winter when all your massive machines would stuck in a foot of gunk all over the place. That is if your goal was annexation and not annihilation (which could happen from the air) If you wanted to bully the Europeans who are dependent on your Nat Gas because of their Green Energy fantasies, you'd do so in the Winter by building up an invasion force that you weren't planning to use, but wanted deep concessions. Getting the Ukraine to Finland status alone probably worth several Billion rubles of "Training Expense" I’ve heard the opposite. You attack in the dead of winter when the ground is frozen so your heavy equipment does NOT get stuck in the mud.
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 15 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Seems like nobody really knows what Russia's endgame is, besides attack Ukraine in the next 48-72 hours. My guess is Putin thought he could simply bully everyone into doing what he wanted, he got more pushback than he bargained for but not enough to stop him. So now the Russians have to Go! because waiting only makes him look weaker, and gives the Ukrainians time to stockpile weapons (which we're sending them at a good clip) and train troops. The force Russia is sending in isn't big enough to take and hold the whole country, so they've got some kind of landgrab/partitioning scheme in their heads? I guess we'll find out. The army we invaded Iraq with wasn't nearly big enough to hold the whole country, but we tried to anyway. There was a lot of speculation that he would wait until the end of the Olympics and not step on Xi's little parade of chinese communist party feel-good propaganda, but the weather's good for tanks and APCs, and he gains nothing by waiting except more casualties. Good luck to the Ukrainians, I guess the moral of the story is if you don't want to be invaded, get nukes. That's what I was thinking also. Hopefully not!
ComradeKayAdams Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Announcements this morning that Russia is withdrawing troop from border areas. Conflicting stories whether its some or all. And as I suggested exit the manufactured narrative an attack is imminent and enter the manufactured narrative Joe Biden is a tough and effective leader that stared down Putin narrative. All CNN scripts and talking points in the process of replacement with the new theme. Let's get those approval rating up! Now there's an issue the Democrats can run on in November. Which is "if we lose the House or Senate Putin will be emboldened". I'll say one thing. These guys are good at creating illusions. Good to hear! A Russian invasion of Ukraine is highly unlikely because all the players in this stupid game are ultimately rational actors. Everyone here stands to lose so much more in the long run (economically and militarily) than they can ever hope to win. So fingers crossed, but yes it’s looking a lot more like political theater serving to benefit multiple international leaders, namely Biden and Putin, with their respective constituencies’ approval. The worldwide military-industrial complex is also benefiting greatly, of course, and this may very well be the main motivation. Just quickly scanning through the posts in this thread…it appears that (yet again) the corporate mainstream media has been irresponsibly framing the debate through the lens of right versus left, GOP versus Democrats, and Trump versus Biden. Very few have been taking the far more important introspective approach and asking what our own country’s responsibility has been for this escalation? Why is it any of our business to dictate how economic trade relations between Russia and its nearest European Union neighbors are to proceed? As much as I personally despise the Russian natural gas industry, for example, doesn’t a country like Germany have the sovereign right to seek energy price relief from COVID-related inflationary effects? And what about the aggressive military posturing from NATO? Wouldn’t the United States feel increasingly threatened, for example, if China was moving troops closer to our borders from Canada and Mexico? For anyone still wondering what Russia’s endgame is, the best guess would be “economic leverage into the European market.” All of Putin’s aggressive military posturing strikes me as his own unique style of diplomacy. Is he trying to rebuild the Slavic empire from the glory days of the Soviet Union, with the invasion of Ukraine as the first key step? Very doubtful. Way too costly, IMO. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Did Putin just blink? No, not yet. The Russians have all of their premier, elite units stacked up on the Ukrainian border still. When 1st Guards Tank Army is back in barracks in Moscow, and all their Far Eastern units are back in barracks facing China, then something substantive has happened. Ukraine's not out of the woods by a long shot. That said, Putin is a smart guy, you don't become a Colonel in the KGB by serving hamburgers. What I can't stand is this idea, which is his own ***** propaganda, that he's somehow invincible or perfect or five steps ahead of everyone. Every single leader and general that's ever lived has made mistakes. 2
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, ComradeKayAdams said: Good to hear! A Russian invasion of Ukraine is highly unlikely because all the players in this stupid game are ultimately rational actors. Everyone here stands to lose so much more in the long run (economically and militarily) than they can ever hope to win. So fingers crossed, but yes it’s looking a lot more like political theater serving to benefit multiple international leaders, namely Biden and Putin, with their respective constituencies’ approval. The worldwide military-industrial complex is also benefiting greatly, of course, and this may very well be the main motivation. Just quickly scanning through the posts in this thread…it appears that (yet again) the corporate mainstream media has been irresponsibly framing the debate through the lens of right versus left, GOP versus Democrats, and Trump versus Biden. Very few have been taking the far more important introspective approach and asking what our own country’s responsibility has been for this escalation? Why is it any of our business to dictate how economic trade relations between Russia and its nearest European Union neighbors are to proceed? As much as I personally despise the Russian natural gas industry, for example, doesn’t a country like Germany have the sovereign right to seek energy price relief from COVID-related inflationary effects? And what about the aggressive military posturing from NATO? Wouldn’t the United States feel increasingly threatened, for example, if China was moving troops closer to our borders from Canada and Mexico? For anyone still wondering what Russia’s endgame is, the best guess would be “economic leverage into the European market.” All of Putin’s aggressive military posturing strikes me as his own unique style of diplomacy. Is he trying to rebuild the Slavic empire from the glory days of the Soviet Union, with the invasion of Ukraine as the first key step? Very doubtful. Way too costly, IMO. I disagree. Putin wants Ukraine back. That's why he took Crimea. Russian history is, in part, a story expansion that way. Peter the Great, Catherine the Great all pushed off in that direction and Putin wants it back. 1
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, B-Man said: Hahahahahahahahahaha. The West gets played again. Too bad we can't find a real leader who will actually stand up to Putin and not just pretend to. Wow. Just wow 1
B-Man Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 A good read about what the insecure Putin is really after What Putin Really Wants Christopher Miller 14 Feb 2022 https://quillette.com/2022/02/14/putins-mission-to-restore-the-imperial-glory-of-mother-russia/ 2
Motorin' Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said: Good to hear! A Russian invasion of Ukraine is highly unlikely because all the players in this stupid game are ultimately rational actors. Everyone here stands to lose so much more in the long run (economically and militarily) than they can ever hope to win. So fingers crossed, but yes it’s looking a lot more like political theater serving to benefit multiple international leaders, namely Biden and Putin, with their respective constituencies’ approval. The worldwide military-industrial complex is also benefiting greatly, of course, and this may very well be the main motivation. Just quickly scanning through the posts in this thread…it appears that (yet again) the corporate mainstream media has been irresponsibly framing the debate through the lens of right versus left, GOP versus Democrats, and Trump versus Biden. Very few have been taking the far more important introspective approach and asking what our own country’s responsibility has been for this escalation? Why is it any of our business to dictate how economic trade relations between Russia and its nearest European Union neighbors are to proceed? As much as I personally despise the Russian natural gas industry, for example, doesn’t a country like Germany have the sovereign right to seek energy price relief from COVID-related inflationary effects? And what about the aggressive military posturing from NATO? Wouldn’t the United States feel increasingly threatened, for example, if China was moving troops closer to our borders from Canada and Mexico? For anyone still wondering what Russia’s endgame is, the best guess would be “economic leverage into the European market.” All of Putin’s aggressive military posturing strikes me as his own unique style of diplomacy. Is he trying to rebuild the Slavic empire from the glory days of the Soviet Union, with the invasion of Ukraine as the first key step? Very doubtful. Way too costly, IMO. The Ukrainians have been saying that Washington is sabre rattling and the only ones talking invasion. I wouldn't be shocked if its a Wag the Dog situation. What are they trying to distract from? Maybe Durham has the goods the right is claiming? Edited February 15, 2022 by Motorin' 1 1 2
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 25 minutes ago, B-Man said: A good read about what the insecure Putin is really after What Putin Really Wants Christopher Miller 14 Feb 2022 https://quillette.com/2022/02/14/putins-mission-to-restore-the-imperial-glory-of-mother-russia/ Good article B-man! Quote The Kremlin insists that Ukraine implement the Minsk Accords, by which it means that the Russian-controlled regions in Eastern Ukraine should be reinjected into Ukraine’s political system while still under de facto Russian control. The Russian backed thugs who currently govern the Russian-controlled chunks of Eastern Ukraine would become influential political forces in Kyiv. The Kremlin thereby hopes to acquire a Trojan Horse that gives it a permanent veto over politics inside Ukraine. The Ukrainian people understandably think that such a deal would make them a puppet state. Russia thinks this is the point. I saw that the Ukrainians were very happy that the Russian sectors were now out of Ukraine. Taking them backfired from Putin Just now, Motorin' said: The Ukrainians have been saying that Washington is sabre rattling and the only ones talking invasion. I wouldn't be shocked if it a Wag the Dog situation. What are they trying to distract from? Maybe Durham has the goods the right is claiming? lol Quote Last summer, Putin published a high-profile article titled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians.” The first sentence of the piece reiterated Putin’s view that Russians and Ukrainians were “a single whole.” The conclusion of the article warns “true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.” That's from B-Man's article
Doc Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Announcements this morning that Russia is withdrawing troop from border areas. Conflicting stories whether its some or all. And as I suggested exit the manufactured narrative an attack is imminent and enter the manufactured narrative Joe Biden is a tough and effective leader that stared down Putin narrative. All CNN scripts and talking points in the process of replacement with the new theme. Let's get those approval rating up! Now there's an issue the Democrats can run on in November. Which is "if we lose the House or Senate Putin will be emboldened". I'll say one thing. These guys are good at creating illusions. He "averted" a war that wasn't going to happen. Approval rating...still goes down. 1 1
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 46 minutes ago, Doc said: He "averted" a war that wasn't going to happen. Approval rating...still goes down. He stopped Putin's imperialism. Boom
Coffeesforclosers Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and ignore everything Russia Today says, because their whole operation is financed out of the federal budget of the Russian government. 1
716er Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 On 2/11/2022 at 2:36 PM, Big Blitz said: Wow.. During the Super Bowl book it What a mess. Book it lol
Big Blitz Posted February 15, 2022 Posted February 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Doc said: He "averted" a war that wasn't going to happen. Approval rating...still goes down. This appears to be what I'm reading. The administration used that tool Nick Schifirin to report an imminent invasion that was never going to happen. They reported that as late as they could Friday to not destroy the markets too much Then claim de-escalation that was never going to happen - markets go back up. They really hope it's his approval rating that goes up - he stood up to Putin he'll claim. There was nothing actually happening 2 1 1
Tiberius Posted February 15, 2022 Author Posted February 15, 2022 8 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: This appears to be what I'm reading. The administration used that tool Nick Schifirin to report an imminent invasion that was never going to happen. They reported that as late as they could Friday to not destroy the markets too much Then claim de-escalation that was never going to happen - markets go back up. They really hope it's his approval rating that goes up - he stood up to Putin he'll claim. There was nothing actually happening You are making up facts that you have no way of knowing. Is this what you usually do?
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