Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

16 hours ago, Precision said:

Even with their low spending, by most accounts Germany's military is ranked anywhere from 4th to 14th in the world compared to Russia (widely ranked 2nd).  Far from weak or the weakest.

 

Germany has the 4th largest GDP in the world, more than twice the size of Russia's at 11th.  

 

Germany and Russia have extensive economic ties as Germany is Russia's second largest trading partner.

 

Ukraine is less than 1000 miles from Germany.

 

Nowhere in my post did I say Germany should "go it alone".  Of all the NATO countries, Germany has most interest in this conflict being settled peacefully.  Economically they can bring the most pressure to bear against Russia and will likely be the destination of refugees from the potential conflict.

 

  

Rather than just criticize, tell me what country do you think should take the lead in averting a Russia/Ukraine conflict?  

 

 

USA 

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Democracy is a strategic interest. At least to many of us. 

 

I get that with the demographic changes going on many Conservatives are troubled by democracy but its the best way to go by far 

The US government supports dictators when it suits the purpose and American foreign policy is full of contradictions and inconsistencies.  This is easily verifiable by checking current events and the history books.  For example, would you consider the Saudi Monarchy a democracy?  Where's THAT strategic interest in that situation?  Be-headings, torture, public executions, attacks and killings of homosexuals, abuse and subjugation of women.  Torturing and killing dissidents and reporters and chopping them up to put in suitcases to bring home.  Americans are concerned with supporting democracy?  All I hear in this example is silence.   

 

And as you should be aware the Ukrainian government owes much of its support to Nazi paramilitary groups that do much of the fighting.  As the regular Army is frankly pathetic and incapable.  These groups owe their origins to their predecessors that supported the German occupation during WW2.  We know how that went.  I don't hear any calls from the left demanding President Zelinsky condemn his country's version of White Supremacists.   To the contrary, cries for more weapons and support.  People should learn history, right?          

 

The strategic interest in Ukraine is to physically isolate and encircle Russia.  All transgressions and contradictions are to be ignored.  What I marvel most about is how the left actually believes they support democracy.  Its one of their many mythical and supernatural beliefs. 

[Tiberius]

13 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The US government supports dictators when it suits the purpose and American foreign policy is full of contradictions and inconsistencies.  This is easily verifiable by checking current events and the history books.  For example, would you consider the Saudi Monarchy a democracy?  Where's THAT strategic interest in that situation?  Be-headings, torture, public executions, attacks and killings of homosexuals, abuse and subjugation of women.  Torturing and killing dissidents and reporters and chopping them up to put in suitcases to bring home.  Americans are concerned with supporting democracy?  All I hear in this example is silence.   

 

And as you should be aware the Ukrainian government owes much of its support to Nazi paramilitary groups that do much of the fighting.  As the regular Army is frankly pathetic and incapable.  These groups owe their origins to their predecessors that supported the German occupation during WW2.  We know how that went.  I don't hear any calls from the left demanding President Zelinsky condemn his country's version of White Supremacists.   To the contrary, cries for more weapons and support.  People should learn history, right?          

 

The strategic interest in Ukraine is to physically isolate and encircle Russia.  All transgressions and contradictions are to be ignored.  What I marvel most about is how the left actually believes they support democracy.  Its one of their many mythical and supernatural beliefs. 

Ukraine is a democracy. That's an interest. See, the more democracies abroad, the safer our democracy is. But I think others see foreign democracy as a threat and roadblock to curtailing democracy here so are happy to see Putin snuff it out. 

[Doc]

Just spoke with a (GI) nurse who is Russian.  She said Putin won't invade but he should because Ukrainians feel like they've been abandoned and the new government is a joke and just as corrupt as the old ones.

[Irv]

Demented Biden and his communist buddies have already been paid off by Ukraine.  No need to help Ukraine now.  Big guy got the 10% and Huneter provided valuable insight to Burisma form his vast knowledge of the petroleum industry,  What a mess.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

23 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Ukraine is a democracy. That's an interest. See, the more democracies abroad, the safer our democracy is. But I think others see foreign democracy as a threat and roadblock to curtailing democracy here so are happy to see Putin snuff it out. 

Yes, millions of American's are secretly rooting for Putin to succeed at the expense of their own interests.  Another leftist myth. 

The US government's strategic interest is in supporting and installing governments abroad that are friendly to its interests.  Period.  If they're democracies well bonus points for that.  If not our government can work with the dictators as long as they remain committed to US interests.  If they are not committed to US interests or waiver in their support of US interests then out they go! 

If you believe our government operates on some divine principles of good and right above all other interests than you really don't understand geopolitical alliances and strategic interests and the basic concepts of the non-binary and relative nature of good and evil.     

[dpberr]

Don't be surprised Russia/Ukraine coincides with China/Taiwan.  If they are going to go, it'll be mid-February, Chinese New Year.    The Russians and Chinese are playing the "better to ask for forgiveness" game on the world stage.   

 

You're asking the West to manage two major conflicts simultaneously.  We're lucky if we can handle one.  The West is distracted, we (US) aren't exactly on top of our game.  

 

Europe should come to Ukraine's aid.  Ukraine has a big land army and it's pretty well equipped.  What it doesn't have is air power.  I'm afraid though, the Europeans are a bunch of cowards.  

 

The US has to protect Taiwan.  If you let them take Taiwan, they will start setting their eyes on the contested islands with Japan and taking African countries one by one.

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, dpberr said:

Don't be surprised Russia/Ukraine coincides with China/Taiwan.  If they are going to go, it'll be mid-February, Chinese New Year.    The Russians and Chinese are playing the "better to ask for forgiveness" game on the world stage.   

 

You're asking the West to manage two major conflicts simultaneously.  We're lucky if we can handle one.  The West is distracted, we (US) aren't exactly on top of our game.  

 

Europe should come to Ukraine's aid.  Ukraine has a big land army and it's pretty well equipped.  What it doesn't have is air power.  I'm afraid though, the Europeans are a bunch of cowards.  

 

The US has to protect Taiwan.  If you let them take Taiwan, they will start setting their eyes on the contested islands with Japan and taking African countries one by one.

Hopefully by then the Pentagon brass will have completed their study of white rage and social justice indoctrination of the troops in time to develop some sort of strategy and response..

[Doc]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Hopefully by then the Pentagon brass will have completed their study of white rage and social justice indoctrination of the troops in time to develop some sort of strategy and response..

 

Except that interfering with China taking over Taiwan might appear racist...

[Tiberius]

25 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Yes, millions of American's are secretly rooting for Putin to succeed at the expense of their own interests.  Another leftist myth. 

The US government's strategic interest is in supporting and installing governments abroad that are friendly to its interests.  Period.  If they're democracies well bonus points for that.  If not our government can work with the dictators as long as they remain committed to US interests.  If they are not committed to US interests or waiver in their support of US interests then out they go! 

If you believe our government operates on some divine principles of good and right above all other interests than you really don't understand geopolitical alliances and strategic interests and the basic concepts of the non-binary and relative nature of good and evil.     

Democracy abroad, in my opinion, is an interest. We should, and are, trying to spread it and preserve it. Sure, we have to work with the thugs also, but not if they are attempting to snuff out a democracy. 

 

It is funny how Putin is so above criticism even on a message board like this. 

 

Look at all the criticism of Biden when it's Putin threatening invasion. Wow 

[Westside]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Democracy abroad, in my opinion, is an interest. We should, and are, trying to spread it and preserve it. Sure, we have to work with the thugs also, but not if they are attempting to snuff out a democracy. 

 

It is funny how Putin is so above criticism even on a message board like this. 

 

Look at all the criticism of Biden when it's Putin threatening invasion. Wow 

Oh the irony!

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

Just spoke with a (GI) nurse who is Russian.  She said Putin won't invade but he should because Ukrainians feel like they've been abandoned and the new government is a joke and just as corrupt as the old ones.

Shocked that a Russian would say that...most Ukranians, and eastern Europeans for that matter,  despise Russia.  That whole raping of their resources thing after ww2 doesn't sit well with them.  It set all former satellite states back considerably ecomically and most haven't fully recovered.   It's important that this not be allowed to happen.   I hope European Nato members step up and we don't have to do much.  Ukraine isn't in nato but it's a threat nonetheless. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

The problem here really boils down to if Putin were to do this, what's next?  He may just be posturing but seeing what happened in the Crimea and there's been constant fighting in the East of Ukraine this could be something serious.   Poland next?  He could BS that there are plenty of Ruskies there too.  

[OrangeBills]

Really interesting how War-mongering seems to drift as a topic from Left to Right to Left to Right...Dem to Repub to Dem to Repub...truly interesting to watch.

 

We have Leftists on here advocating that the United States take the LEAD in forming a coalition to fight RUSSIA on their home turf, over a piece of land that was just partially commandeered during the previous Leftist's Presidency...interesting that now (and I hear this beyond said Poster on this site, talking nationally) the Left wants to use US military power against a much more difficult opponent...

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, OrangeBills said:

Really interesting how War-mongering seems to drift as a topic from Left to Right to Left to Right...Dem to Repub to Dem to Repub...truly interesting to watch.

 

We have Leftists on here advocating that the United States take the LEAD in forming a coalition to fight RUSSIA on their home turf, over a piece of land that was just partially commandeered during the previous Leftist's Presidency...interesting that now (and I hear this beyond said Poster on this site, talking nationally) the Left wants to use US military power against a much more difficult opponent...

How many woke social justice leftists do you expect have been concerned enough about the Russian threat to enlist in the corps the past week?  Rather I suspect they are content to stay safe and peddle Russian collusion narratives far from the front.  And provide the opportunity to do all the fighting to rank-and-file soldiers that generally disagree with their socialist agenda.  

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, OrangeBills said:

Really interesting how War-mongering seems to drift as a topic from Left to Right to Left to Right...Dem to Repub to Dem to Repub...truly interesting to watch.

 

We have Leftists on here advocating that the United States take the LEAD in forming a coalition to fight RUSSIA on their home turf, over a piece of land that was just partially commandeered during the previous Leftist's Presidency...interesting that now (and I hear this beyond said Poster on this site, talking nationally) the Left wants to use US military power against a much more difficult opponent...

Who said that was right?  I'm not sure what the proper response should have been but I doubt many here approve of that move by Obama.  I sure don't it was and I think overall he was a great president.   Crap decision there though imo.

Edited December 6, 2021 by L Ron Burgundy

[Precision]

8 hours ago, Tiberius said:

USA 

Ha ha ha, you're kidding right?  No seriously you have to be joking!

 

Other countries are going to follow the US after we were run out of Afghanistan?  Run out of a country of goat farmers with a population twice the size of NYS!  Not only were we run out, we ran out like a scared cat!  It won't be long until we're thrown out of Iraq as well so there's another in the "L" column.  

 

What was the last military conflict the US won with boots on the ground?  Grenada in the 80's?  Ha ha ha, maybe we can stick to picking on countries that are smaller than Syracuse!  Or maybe we just bomb people who don't have weapons that can engage our aircraft, that's leadership!

 

The US has the best equipped military with the most spectacular service men/women in the world.  Unfortunately, our armed forces are saddled with weak leaders that are unwilling to do what it takes to win.  That's certainly not going to change soon with president "poopy pants" in charge.  Other countries respect our military, but they won't follow us because they don't respect our leaders.

 

[Tiberius]

14 hours ago, Precision said:

Ha ha ha, you're kidding right?  No seriously you have to be joking!

 

Other countries are going to follow the US after we were run out of Afghanistan?  Run out of a country of goat farmers with a population twice the size of NYS!  Not only were we run out, we ran out like a scared cat!  It won't be long until we're thrown out of Iraq as well so there's another in the "L" column.  

 

What was the last military conflict the US won with boots on the ground?  Grenada in the 80's?  Ha ha ha, maybe we can stick to picking on countries that are smaller than Syracuse!  Or maybe we just bomb people who don't have weapons that can engage our aircraft, that's leadership!

 

The US has the best equipped military with the most spectacular service men/women in the world.  Unfortunately, our armed forces are saddled with weak leaders that are unwilling to do what it takes to win.  That's certainly not going to change soon with president "poopy pants" in charge.  Other countries respect our military, but they won't follow us because they don't respect our leaders.

 

We already are. Weak leaders? Is Biden questioning the necessity of NATO? No. That's Putin's big thing in Ukraine, and he no longer has Trump yammering about breaking up NATO and complaining about money. 

 

Biden is so far above Trump in foreign policy it's ridiculous. No wonder Putin's panties are in a wade

[Doc]

Good to see those on the left are still delusional.

[Tiberius]

17 hours ago, OrangeBills said:

Really interesting how War-mongering seems to drift as a topic from Left to Right to Left to Right...Dem to Repub to Dem to Repub...truly interesting to watch.

 

We have Leftists on here advocating that the United States take the LEAD in forming a coalition to fight RUSSIA on their home turf, over a piece of land that was just partially commandeered during the previous Leftist's Presidency...interesting that now (and I hear this beyond said Poster on this site, talking nationally) the Left wants to use US military power against a much more difficult opponent...

Sounds like you just want to give Putin a free hand. You voted for Trump I assume. 

43 minutes ago, Doc said:

Good to see those on the left are still delusional.

LOL, that's funny coming from a Trump supporter 🤣