Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tenhigh]

4 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

So Biden would defend Taiwan if China invades, but not Ukraine. WTF is this talk. According to NY POST

According to Biden himself, watch the video.

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/president-joe-biden-u-s-will-defend-taiwan-militarily-if-china-invades-140605509957

 

 

[Niagara Bill]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

Is Trump becoming a total isolationist, or is Vladdy just a friend?

Hard to belive the GOP, who for decades believed communists were evil, could not be allowed to spread anywhere (Korea, Vietnam) and certainly not in our hemisphere (Cuba, Panama,), now support getting out of NATO and allowing spread of Communism. Wow, who is writing this bad movie. The greatest democracy the world has ever seen is moving to help dictators. 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Is Trump becoming a total isolationist, or is Vladdy just a friend?

Hard to belive the GOP, who for decades believed communists were evil, could not be allowed to spread anywhere (Korea, Vietnam) and certainly not in our hemisphere (Cuba, Panama,), now support getting out of NATO and allowing spread of Communism. Wow, who is writing this bad movie. The greatest democracy the world has ever seen is moving to help dictators. 

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

Yes, our government has an outstanding track record of getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures in the past 20 plus years without being held to any standard of accountability or providing clear and measurable objectives and they've all worked out great.  I'm sure this one will too.  What could go wrong? 

 

Economically things couldn't have worked out better for Russia or worse for the US and Western Europe to this point.  Ukrainians are being killed and the country being destroyed, a worldwide food crisis is coming, prices of all kinds of commodities and energy are through the roof, and while they've suffered an unexpectedly high level of casualties and setbacks militarily, the Russian Ruble is worth more now than it was before the war started and Putin's foreign trade income is double.  Great work.      

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Yes, our government has an outstanding track record of getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures in the past 20 plus years without being held to any standard of accountability or providing clear and measurable objectives and they've all worked out great.  I'm sure this one will too.  What could go wrong? 

 

Economically things couldn't have worked out better for Russia or worse for the US and Western Europe to this point.  Ukrainians are being killed and the country being destroyed, a worldwide food crisis is coming, prices of all kinds of commodities and energy are through the roof, and while they've suffered an unexpectedly high level of casualties and setbacks militarily, the Russian Ruble is worth more now than it was before the war started and Putin's foreign trade income is double.  Great work.      

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

[Tenhigh]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

Tibs, why are your feelings so strong about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Not trying to be a jerk, I am really just interested as to why this topic lights you up do much.

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Ukraine stands firm! Go cry about that one with Putin's tanks littering the countryside 

Your mindset of thinking about warfare only in terms of territorial conquest is limiting your assessment of the situation and you're either not comprehending or willing to understanding the "big picture" of what's going on here. 

[Tiberius]

10 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Tibs, why are your feelings so strong about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Not trying to be a jerk, I am really just interested as to why this topic lights you up do much.

I think this is an interesting question. It seems to me, you are implying that they are not part of "my group" so I shouldn't care if they are crushed and have genocide visited upon them. Is that what you think? 

 

They are being attacked by a total POS scum bag garbage person and army. Why would I NOT support their fight for freedom? 

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Your mindset of thinking about warfare only in terms of territorial conquest is limiting your assessment of the situation and you're either not comprehending or willing to understanding the "big picture" of what's going on here. 

Wrong. 

 

It's about democracy and the autocrat scum bag who wants to kill their self government 

[Tenhigh]

Just now, Tiberius said:

I think this is an interesting question. It seems to me, you are implying that they are not part of "my group" so I shouldn't care if they are crushed and have genocide visited upon them. Is that what you think? 

 

They are being attacked by a total POS scum bag garbage person and army. Why would I NOT support their fight for freedom? 

Wrong. 

I'm not implying anything, I'm just trying to understand your motivation, you are very passionate about this instance of Russia invading Ukraine.  Why is this one so personal to you over say Hong Kong, or Crimea?

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Wrong. 

 

It's about democracy and the autocrat scum bag who wants to kill their self government 

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

16 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

I'm not implying anything, I'm just trying to understand your motivation, you are very passionate about this instance of Russia invading Ukraine.  Why is this one so personal to you over say Hong Kong, or Crimea?

So you watch civilians being bombed and don't feel anything either way? 

 

Why do you ask? 

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

No 

[Coffeesforclosers]

24 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Self government!  Ukraine is completely controlled by Washington consistent with how previous versions of Ukrainian governments were completely controlled by Moscow.  You really think Zelensky is calling the shots?  If he engaged in peace talks or a deal with Russia without US permission he'd be killed.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what's you're argument?  I'm trying to understand it, and here's where I'm at.

 

America successfully turned Ukraine into an American puppet, when it used to be a Russian puppet. Now Russia's invaded an American puppet, and even though their invasion has turned out nothing like they planned, they're actually winning overall because prices on the commodity market are sky high right now?

 

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Not the entire GOP, thank God. I just hope the isolationists do not take over that party

They have...DT

[B-Man]

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

 

I'm kinda surprised you read The Guardian, @B-Man!

[B-Man]

17 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I'm kinda surprised you read The Guardian, @B-Man!

 

 

I get sources from all over.

 

The majority are center right, but many are not.

 

 

And more importantly, British newspapers of all types print much more info than the woke-hobbled U.S. media.

 

 

👍

 

 

 

 

ADDED:

 

Russian Diplomat Quits Over ‘Criminal’ Ukraine War: ‘Never Have I Been So Ashamed of My Country.’

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/05/23/russian-diplomat-quits-over-criminal-ukraine-war-never-have-i-been-so-ashamed-of-my-country-n1600084

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by B-Man

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UKRAINE WAR: Syria’s barrel bomb experts in Russia to help with potential Ukraine campaign.

 

Intelligence officers say more than 50 specialists, all with vast experience in making and delivering the crude explosive, have been in Russia for several weeks working alongside officials from Vladimir Putin’s military.

 

Their arrival is understood to be one factor behind US and European warnings that the Russian military may have been preparing for the use of chemical weapons in the conflict, which has entered its fourth month with little sign of slowing.

 

Barrel bombs – crude explosives packed in to a drum and dropped from a helicopter – were used to devastating effect throughout the Syrian war.

 

Under Vlad Putin, Russia is transforming itself from a Third World nation with a First World military to a Third World nation with a Third World military.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/syrias-barrel-bomb-experts-in-russia-to-help-with-potential-ukraine-campaign

 

 

 

Crude indeed. Hopefully it will make an easy target for artillery 

 

And to the bolded, this war will probably be a major turning point in Russian history one way or another. Hopefully toward a liberal democracy and not into a new North Korean 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

So what's you're argument?  I'm trying to understand it, and here's where I'm at.

 

America successfully turned Ukraine into an American puppet, when it used to be a Russian puppet. Now Russia's invaded an American puppet, and even though their invasion has turned out nothing like they planned, they're actually winning overall because prices on the commodity market are sky high right now?

 

Well, I agree with you completely, my back and forth with Tibs is about an unrelenting obsession that America is acting to protect democracy. 

 

I think that's an ideological fantasy.  My position is the US is acting purely out of self-interest.  Like it or not the US sets the rules governing the world order and whether or not a country is a democracy or not is not important.  The most important fact is either they follow the rules set by the US or they do not follow the rules set by the US.  Russia, and a few other countries, dangerously a growing number, do not want to or do not follow the rules.  Rule breakers must be put down.  So like the Romans sending a couple legions to a far away province to put down a rebellion the US deploys various State department diplomats, intelligence operatives, and scores of military advisors and boatloads of armaments and financial aid.  To restore the order.  In this case by intervening through proxy state Ukraine letting them do all the fighting and dying while most likely compensating their leadership very well under the table.  That's all this is about.  Maintaining the business arrangements and rules of the Empire.  But the primary goal of supporting democracy?  You can't be serious! 

 

    

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

I get sources from all over.

 

The majority are center right, but many are not.

 

 

And more importantly, British newspapers of all types print much more info than the woke-hobbled U.S. media.

 

 

👍

 

 

 

 

ADDED:

 

Russian Diplomat Quits Over ‘Criminal’ Ukraine War: ‘Never Have I Been So Ashamed of My Country.’

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/05/23/russian-diplomat-quits-over-criminal-ukraine-war-never-have-i-been-so-ashamed-of-my-country-n1600084

 

 

[Tiberius]