Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Irv]

Americans should get the ***** out of Ukraine as quickly as possible before Biden ***** them like he did everyone in Afghanistan.  What a mess!

 

[BillStime]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

The WH in 2003 was used to gin up a war. This is true

 

Right now it’s being used to stop a war. 

 

 

What dont you understand? 

It's all political theater scripted to portray Biden as the tough and effective leader that stared down Putin in order to revive his dismal polling numbers.  In contrast to the bombastic rhetoric, listen to comments from President Zelensky.  Does he sound like a guy worried about an invasion?   

[Tiberius]

10 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

It's all political theater scripted to portray Biden as the tough and effective leader that stared down Putin in order to revive his dismal polling numbers.  In contrast to the bombastic rhetoric, listen to comments from President Zelensky.  Does he sound like a guy worried about an invasion?   

Zelensky can’t let Russia disrupt the Ukrainian economy, that only serves Russian interests. Biden is effectively standing up to Putin and trying to stop a war and the crushing of a republic 

[Tiberius]

Quote

MOSCOW — Russian President Vladimir Putin left the door open Monday to further talks with Western leaders on his efforts to end NATO’s open door policy, when his foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, said the scope for dialogue was “far from exhausted” and called for intensified talks with Washington and NATO.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/14/ukraine-russia-putin-nato/

[Niagara Bill]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Zelensky can’t let Russia disrupt the Ukrainian economy, that only serves Russian interests. Biden is effectively standing up to Putin and trying to stop a war and the crushing of a republic 

So his need to complain about not enough black head coaches in  the NFL on SB Sunday,  is just camouflage to his secret behind the scene pressure on Putin.

12 months ago I thought Biden had a knowledge of behind the scene bargaining, I was soooo wrong. AOC runs him, Even Nancy is quiet and running away in this woke culture Biden has bought into.

[All_Pro_Bills]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Zelensky can’t let Russia disrupt the Ukrainian economy, that only serves Russian interests. Biden is effectively standing up to Putin and trying to stop a war and the crushing of a republic 

What I'd like somebody to explain is if Putin desperately wants to absorb Ukraine into the sphere of Russian influence then why didn't he act during the Trump administration when, as some allege, he had a puppet in the White House that would not have lifted a finger to stop the Russians?  Rather than waiting until a change in US administrations took place when a new President some claim is trying to stop a war and oppose Russian aggression is now President?  Nothing fundamentally on the ground has changed.  And Putin is many bad things but one of them isn't being an idiot.

 

 

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What I'd like somebody to explain is if Putin desperately wants to absorb Ukraine into the sphere of Russian influence then why didn't he act during the Trump administration when, as some allege, he had a puppet in the White House that would not have lifted a finger to stop the Russians?  Rather than waiting until a change in US administrations took place when a new President some claim is trying to stop a war and oppose Russian aggression is now President?  Nothing fundamentally on the ground has changed.  And Putin is many bad things but one of them isn't being an idiot.

 

Great question for the libs here.  Anyone?  Anyone?

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

What I'd like somebody to explain is if Putin desperately wants to absorb Ukraine into the sphere of Russian influence then why didn't he act during the Trump administration when, as some allege, he had a puppet in the White House that would not have lifted a finger to stop the Russians?  Rather than waiting until a change in US administrations took place when a new President some claim is trying to stop a war and oppose Russian aggression is now President?  Nothing fundamentally on the ground has changed.  And Putin is many bad things but one of them isn't being an idiot.

 

 

And rock the boat for Trump? Ruin a good thing? 

 

Trump was literally trying to manipulate Ukraine into a creating a fake scandal. That's why he was impeached the first time 

[Tiberius]

Quote

 

A Russian anti-submarine destroyer chased off a U.S. submarine near the Kuril Islands, forcing it to leave the country's territorial waters, Moscow said Saturday, amid raging tensions over Ukraine.

A Pentagon spokesman, asked by AFP for comment, said only: "We are aware of press reporting about an alleged naval incident in the Pacific. We cannot confirm the details of these reports at this time."

A senior administration official said Saturday they had no additional information about the alleged incident.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-warship-us-submarine-encounter-pacific-islands/

[All_Pro_Bills]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

And rock the boat for Trump? Ruin a good thing? 

 

Trump was literally trying to manipulate Ukraine into a creating a fake scandal. That's why he was impeached the first time 

That doesn't seem logical.  Why float the boat in the first place if you're not going to take it out on the lake?  And in lieu of any strategic benefit what good thing was there to ruin?  I can't recall one major concession Trump gave to Moscow.  He inhibited NordStream2 and initiated sanctions against the regime and close oligarchs and supporters of Putin.

 

And for the Russians to take the time and effort install a puppet leader for a limited window of opportunity and never take advantage of it in any meaningful way?  There's a lot of holes in that explanation.  Itsuggests a lot of investment without any return.  Its more plausible the theory connecting Trump to Russia is false.  As we know now from the Durham investigation that "evidence" was fabricated.  All to inhibit the functioning of the administration which worked very well.      

 

And as I recall Trump asked Zelensky to re-start an investigation into Burisma and corruption which happened to include Biden family interests.  As we know Biden had previously killed the investigation as a condition for the delivery of certain US aid and assistance.  We know this from video of the former VP bragging about how he got the lead investigator fired.  That sounds awfully consistent to the quid pro quo arrangement Trump was accused of proposing. 

 

Col. Vindman who was a participant on calls between Trump and Zelensky provided impeachment testimony suggested they discussed a quid pro quo deal.  Something Zelensky himself denied was suggested.  But Zelensky for some reason was not called on to provide any testimony. 

 

I stand by my current contention the current Ukraine "crisis" is being magnified by the Washington establishment to make Biden look tough and effective in an attempt to resuscitate his failing approval rating and avoid a potential rout in November's mid-term elections.  Defeat in the House and Senate would doom the progressive agenda, shift the majority and committee chairs to the opposition, and open up the potential for unwanted investigations and oversight.  If war breaks out Biden looks capable in addressing Russian aggression and if there is no war then his tough stance forced Putin to back down.  Win/win..

[starrymessenger]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Great question for the libs here.  Anyone?  Anyone?

Maybe because with a more Russia friendly administration in Washington he was better served by seeing how things might play out to his advantage over time ie perhaps Trump would pull the US out of NATO (rather than him precipitating a crisis the consequences of which might be uncertain). Also his motivations might not be so much influenced by American policy but other factors closer to home. There has fairly recently been an increase in opposition to his regime in Russia and there has been an upsurge in pro-western popular sentiment in neighbouring Belarus. This is actually Putin’s biggest problem both from a strategic and ideological perspective. If Ukraine and Belarus over time join Western Europe he has a thousand mile border to defend stretching from the Black to the Baltic Seas. Russia can’t do that. It might bankrupt them. Secondly, if Ukraine and Belarus join the EU his regime loses the ideological battle in Russia itself. For him losing these two countries would be like Republicans permanently losing Texas and Georgia aka game over. There is no doubt though that Putin wants to bring/keep/absorb Ukraine. He needs to. The pressure is actually on him.

Edited February 14, 2022 by starrymessenger

[Coffeesforclosers]

Seems like nobody really knows what Russia's endgame is, besides attack Ukraine in the next 48-72 hours.  My guess is Putin thought he could simply bully everyone into doing what he wanted, he got more pushback than he bargained for but not enough to stop him.  So now the Russians have to Go! because waiting only makes him look weaker, and gives the Ukrainians time to stockpile  weapons (which we're sending them at a good clip) and train troops. 

 

The force Russia is sending in isn't big enough to take and hold the whole country, so they've got some kind of landgrab/partitioning scheme in their heads?  I guess we'll find out.  The army we invaded Iraq with wasn't nearly big enough to hold the whole country, but we tried to anyway.

 

There was a lot of speculation that he would wait until the end of the Olympics and not step on Xi's little parade of chinese communist party feel-good propaganda, but the weather's good for tanks and APCs, and he gains nothing by waiting except more casualties.  Good luck to the Ukrainians, I guess the moral of the story is if you don't want to be invaded, get nukes.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Doc]

5 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Maybe because with a more Russia friendly administration in Washington he was better served by seeing how things might play out to his advantage over time ie perhaps Trump would pull the US out of NATO (rather than him precipitating a crisis the consequences of which might be uncertain). Also his motivations might not be so much influenced by American policy but other factors closer to home. There has fairly recently been an increase in opposition to his regime in Russia and there has been an upsurge in pro-western popular sentiment in neighbouring Belarus. This is actually Putin’s biggest problem both from a strategic and ideological perspective. If Ukraine and Belarus over time join Western Europe he has a thousand mile border to defend stretching from the Black to the Baltic Seas. Russia can’t do that. It might bankrupt them. Secondly, if Ukraine and Belarus join the EU his regime loses the ideological battle in Russia itself. For him losing these two countries would be like Republicans permanently losing Texas and Georgia aka game over. There is no doubt though that Putin wants to bring/keep/absorb Ukraine. He needs to. The pressure is actually on him.

 

Putin knows a President might serve just 1-4 year term.  There wasn't time to wait long to see if Trump pulled out of NATO.  So again, why not do it under his "puppet," who theoretically wouldn't oppose it/support Ukraine?

[starrymessenger]

24 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Putin knows a President might serve just 1-4 year term.  There wasn't time to wait long to see if Trump pulled out of NATO.  So again, why not do it under his "puppet," who theoretically wouldn't oppose it/support Ukraine?

While American policy is something all world leaders always need to be aware of I wouldn’t myself overemphasize it’s importance in this particular case insofar as timing is concerned. I think Putin’s worldview is under pressure in Eastern Europe (his backyard) and he fears that with the passage of time Russia as he knows it and wants it to be will lose its grip. I wouldn’t characterize Trump as Putin’s puppet either but I do suspect that Trump admires and would like to emulate him. Putin is a street thug from from a very, very tough neighborhood. But he’s also much more than that. He’s a statesman who understands that he is the successor of Peter, of Catherine and of Alexander the First. That’s a huge responsibility and at 70 years old he is concerned for his and his country’s legacy. So Putin is a serious person and a real handful. Comparing Trump with Putin is like comparing Howdy Doodie with Heavy Duty.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, starrymessenger said:

While American policy is something all world leaders always need to be aware of I wouldn’t myself overemphasize it’s importance in this particular case insofar as timing is concerned. I think Putin’s worldview is under pressure in Eastern Europe (his backyard) and he fears that with the passage of time Russia as he knows it and wants it to be will lose its grip. I wouldn’t characterize Trump as Putin’s puppet either but I do suspect that Trump admires and would like to emulate him. Putin is a street thug from from a very, very tough neighborhood. But he’s also much more than that. He’s a statesman who understands that he is the successor of Peter, of Catherine and of Alexander the First. That’s a huge responsibility and at 70 years old he is concerned for his and his country’s legacy. So Putin is a serious person and a real handful. Comparing Trump with Putin is like comparing Howdy Doodie with Heavy Duty.

 

And comparing Biden with Putin?

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

And comparing Biden with Putin?

Well some argue that the right counterpoint to Putin would be men like Lincoln or Grant, y’know, nothing less than the greatest and the best. I personally don’t see men of that stature amongst today’s political class. Maybe they’re out there somewhere but I don’t see them.

[BillStime]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Great question for the libs here.  Anyone?  Anyone?

 

What more could Trump have done for Putin in four years without it being too (lmao) obvious?  I mean, Trump abandoned the Kurds, Syrians, Afghanistan, weakened Ukraine and created MAJOR DISRUPTION IN THE USA and with its allies as a favor to his master, Putin.  It was just assumed, with Putin's help, that Trump would win the 2020 election... and why Trump tried so HARD to overturn the election... all to appease his master, Putin.

 

1) Why did the Trump campaign gut GOP’s anti-Russia stance on Ukraine? link

 

2) Why did Trump give Putin U.S airbases in northern Syria? link

 

3) Why did Trump try to pull troops out of Germany? link - Beyond obvious to appease Putin even though Trump and the cult* claimed it was because NATO allies—including Germany—was not paying what he considered to be their fair share for European defense.  *@Deranged Rhino (LINK) and his twin,  @Precision (LINK) seemed to argue the same thing - imagine that.

 

Fortunately, Biden killed those plans.

 

4) Why did Trump abandon the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, removing a key arms control treaty between the United States and Russia? link

 

5) Why did Trump withhold congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine?

 

 

6) Why was Trump playing culture wars at home?

 

 

7) Have you noticed how Republicans, Fox News, and the rest of the cult are now all pro Putin / pro Russia?

 

[Tiberius]

Did Putin just blink? 

[SectionC3]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Did Putin just blink? 

We shall see.  But it's a reasonable supposition.  At the very least he built himself a diplomatic off-ramp.