Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[716er]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

That is why professional soldiers, intelligence and elected officials get paid the big bucks. They need to make the best decision for all, Americans, Europe, Ukraine, the future. Too bad that politics at home influence too much. 

Local politics affected millions of deaths in 1939, 1940.

Leaving it to the professionals should make everyone nervous as the recent track record on decisions to engage in foreign interventions is a disaster.  And looking up and down the bench at the current administration I'd say strategic thinking is not a strength of the team.  I mean, what's Washington's strategy here with Ukraine?  To pump weapons into the country fueling a war of attrition down to the last Ukrainian?  Because that's sure how it looks. 

 

And if you really want to invoke the 1939 analogy and some "Minority Report" approach to policy maybe we should attack China on Monday before they attempt to invade (or maybe not invade) Taiwan sometime in the future?  And perhaps identify and eliminate all kinds of potential bad actors all over the world.  Because they might do something really bad later.     

[Niagara Bill]

21 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Leaving it to the professionals should make everyone nervous as the recent track record on decisions to engage in foreign interventions is a disaster.  And looking up and down the bench at the current administration I'd say strategic thinking is not a strength of the team.  I mean, what's Washington's strategy here with Ukraine?  To pump weapons into the country fueling a war of attrition down to the last Ukrainian?  Because that's sure how it looks. 

 

And if you really want to invoke the 1939 analogy and some "Minority Report" approach to policy maybe we should attack China on Monday before they attempt to invade (or maybe not invade) Taiwan sometime in the future?  And perhaps identify and eliminate all kinds of potential bad actors all over the world.  Because they might do something really bad later.     

First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. 

Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland?

We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right.

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. 

Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland?

We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right.

Why are you just watching? Put a Ukrainian flag in your front lawn! That’ll do it. 😉

[Tiberius]

https://www.businessinsider.com/2-russian-oligarchs-found-dead-spain-moscow-reports-2022-4 

 

Police are investigating the deaths of Russian oligarchs Sergey Protosenya and Vladislav Avayev. 

The men, along with their wives and children, were found dead within days of each other.

Police suspect a marital dispute in the cases, which have remarkable similarities.

[Tiberius]

Howitzers and drones. 

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-biden-announces-new-military-aid-e78a7db76215a84f86586bb56122cd04

 

“Sometimes we will speak softly and carry a large Javelin, because we’re sending a lot of those,” Biden said, paraphrasing Theodore Roosevelt and referring to an anti-tank missile system.

The new U.S. military assistance is to include 72 155mm howitzers, 144,000 artillery rounds, 72 vehicles used to tow to the howitzers onto battlefields, and over 121 Phoenix Ghost tactical drones, as well as field equipment and spare parts.

Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said the drones were developed by the Air Force and fit a specific need of Ukrainian forces in the battle for the Donbas. The drones are produced by a U.S. company, Aevex Aerospace, in a program that began before Russia invaded on Feb. 24. Kirby said the Phoenix Ghost is similar to the armed Switchblade kamikaze drones that the Pentagon already is providing to Ukraine.

The 72 howitzers are in addition to the 18 announced last week the U.S. was transferring to Ukraine.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said:

First you second paragraph on China is insulting to anyone who has half a brain. Certainly the west must have position formulated and coincide with diplomacy. 

Second, who do you rely on to make knowledgeable decisions, Qanon, the guy in the Buffalo hat. None of us has enough info to give conclusions but collectively the governments do if politics stops interfering. Readiness is an issue for sure but where does this line get drawn. Romania, Poland, Greece, Italy, Finland?

We are watching ethnic cleansing based on politics in a friendly Christian nation by our major enemy of the past 75 years. Patton was right.

I'm sorry.  I expected that given your 1939 analogy I thought you'd be in alignment with the idea of attacking China.  Otherwise, I assume we wait until they attack Taiwan and you can start citing references to 1941 and the Japanese Empire's invasion of China, Korea, or other Asian nations. 

 

As for diplomacy, there was little to no diplomacy in addressing Russia and their security concerns which US official dismissed without even addressing.  Just do what we say was the negotiating position.  That worked out great for everyone.  Some inside the NATO alliance suggest many member nations want to prolong the war as long as possible as a way to weaken Russia regardless of the costs to the Ukrainian nation and citizens.  I tend to believe that.

 

My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces?  I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days.  So what are we really worried about?  

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm sorry.  I expected that given your 1939 analogy I thought you'd be in alignment with the idea of attacking China.  Otherwise, I assume we wait until they attack Taiwan and you can start citing references to 1941 and the Japanese Empire's invasion of China, Korea, or other Asian nations. 

 

As for diplomacy, there was little to no diplomacy in addressing Russia and their security concerns which US official dismissed without even addressing.  Just do what we say was the negotiating position.  That worked out great for everyone.  Some inside the NATO alliance suggest many member nations want to prolong the war as long as possible as a way to weaken Russia regardless of the costs to the Ukrainian nation and citizens.  I tend to believe that.

 

My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces?  I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days.  So what are we really worried about?  

 

What Russian security concerns???

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

What Russian security concerns???

Its all out there.  You should catch up on events and diplomatic conversations that occurred prior to the invasion.  

[Tiberius]

10 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Its all out there.  You should catch up on events and diplomatic conversations that occurred prior to the invasion.  

There were none. Ukraine was not  a threat to Russia, that's just Putin's propaganda 

[sherpa]

27 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

My final assessment is that given the Russian military's piss poor performance against Ukraine's forces are we overstating or miscalculating the threat presented to Western Europe and the U.S. by Russian conventional forces?  I expect that in a head-to-head fight against our land, sea, and air services the American military would likely annihilate the Russia forces in a matter of weeks if not days.  So what are we really worried about?  

 

 

That may be true, but the reality is that there are many other considerations.

Where do we "annihilate the Russian forces in a matter of weeks," and it wouldn't be "days."

How do we get our forces to this battle?

How do we house them, feed them, supply them?

 

Make no mistake, there would be huge losses in such a conflict, and it if ever got nuclear, well, use your imagination.

 

While you are not one who has done so, a few here who have recommended direct US involvement don't seem to have ever considered the how and where, and it is much more complicated than the uniformed view that you simply sterilize the airspace.

Anyone who suggest that has never operated a tactical airplane under a significant SAM umbrella, which is what the Ukraine is. 

[Tiberius]

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

Per Russia, their losses are:

KIA, 13,441

MIA, 7,000

WIA, no number given.

 

116 Sailors when down with the Moskva, 100+ are still missing and at this point are probably lost at sea.  Make of this what you can.

 

 

[Tiberius]

Ya, missing 🙄

[BillStime]

 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Putin's boy 

 

Blow it up!! 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[sherpa]

33 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

 

Who in their right mind gives a rat's about John Bolton.

The single worst Trump appointee, and there were many.

 

Some people have a "to do" list.

Bolton has always had a "to invade" list and it is very long.

 

The guy has never met a country he didn't want to go to war with, and I for one, have no interest in any of his speculations.

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Who in their right mind gives a rat's about John Bolton.

The single worst Trump appointee, and there were many.

 

Some people have a "to do" list.

Bolton has always had a "to invade" list and it is very long.

 

The guy has never met a country he didn't want to go to war with, and I for one, have no interest in any of his speculations.

Youre right - I should have just posted this Tweet w Conalds own words

 

 

But who are you kidding? We all know Trump would have handed Ukraine over to Putin had he won just like he did Syria.