Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Motorin']

Important Developments today. 

 

Russia has backed off requiring Zelinskyy to be removed as a term of their demands. Which means they've gone from demanding total surrender and regime change, to threatening total loss of statehood, to asking for just the 3 parts of the country they were already occupying. This is a major sign that the costs of this war are piling up.

 

Zelinskyy said today that Ukraine was open to compromise on Crimea, Dontesk and Luhansk, and that military neutrality is on the table. But said the Russians must negotiate, not give ultimatums. 

 

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/08/ukraines-zelenskiy-says-open-to-compromise-with-russia-on-crimea-separatist-territories-a76821

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PetermansRedemption]

44 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Important Developments today. 

 

Russia has backed off requiring Zelinskyy to be removed as a term of their demands. Which means they've gone from demanding total surrender and regime change, to threatening total loss of statehood, to asking for just the 3 parts of the country they were already occupying. This is a major sign that the costs of this war are piling up.

 

Zelinskyy said today that Ukraine was open to compromise on Crimea, Dontesk and Luhansk, and that military neutrality is on the table. But said the Russians must negotiate, not give ultimatums. 

 

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/08/ukraines-zelenskiy-says-open-to-compromise-with-russia-on-crimea-separatist-territories-a76821

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t get this though. Moreso, I’m not sure I trust the reporting. If Russia only wants the areas they already had, why don’t they just fall back to those territories, they still occupy them. Ukraine would count their lucky stars. They would never go on the offensive. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by PetermansRedemption

[Albwan]

2 hours ago, Demongyz said:

Well, my gas has gone up over $2 per gallon since 1/23/21.  Democrat in office. Check.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that Obama wanted prices to go up artificially to get people to go away from fossil fuels.  Then Trump took office and the price dropped like rock.  Then Joe gets into office and prices go through the roof as he stops Keystone, hasn't granted 1 drilling permit on land in over a year.  What do you think?  Democrat presidents cause the price of oil to go up or am I just a dumb dummy from dumb town?

The current democrat party %$#@ing hates America with a passion.

[TH3]

5 hours ago, SCBills said:

Gas prices are much higher due to the green energy initiative of the Biden Admin from the moment they took office. 
 

Much of this was self inflicted.  
 

People getting out and about was always going to increase gas prices a bit, but not like this.  
 

Then his weakness, along with our constant provocation, gave the green light to an evil leader to invade another country, further stressing an already struggling domestic energy policy.  

Got ANY back up to substantiate ANY OF THIS? And no ….Biden sucks not good enough….How has any Biden policy affected any current supply capacity? No…Keystone and No ….lack of new drilling permits did not change US supply capacities……there are literally thousands of drilled and capped wells and thousands of already permitted areas not drilled….Please point me to an actual legislative policy and actual quantitative result …..

2 hours ago, Demongyz said:

Well, my gas has gone up over $2 per gallon since 1/23/21.  Democrat in office. Check.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that Obama wanted prices to go up artificially to get people to go away from fossil fuels.  Then Trump took office and the price dropped like rock.  Then Joe gets into office and prices go through the roof as he stops Keystone, hasn't granted 1 drilling permit on land in over a year.  What do you think?  Democrat presidents cause the price of oil to go up or am I just a dumb dummy from dumb town?

Yes you got it correct in the last sentence 

[TSOL]

1 minute ago, TH3 said:

Got ANY back up to substantiate ANY OF THIS? And no ….Biden sucks not good enough….How has any Biden policy affected any current supply capacity? No…Keystone and No ….lack of new drilling permits did not change US supply capacities……there are literally thousands of drilled and capped wells and thousands of already permitted areas not drilled….Please point me to an actual legislative policy and actual quantitative result …..

 

 

It's been explained numerous times in this thread 

[Motorin']

14 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I don’t get this though. Moreso, I’m not sure I trust the reporting. If Russia only wants the areas they already had, why don’t they just fall back to those territories, they still occupy them. Ukraine would count their lucky stars. They would never go on the offensive. 

 

They want Ukraine to formally declare those regions independent, and permenantly cede Crimea to Russia. They've been fighting over these areas for 8 years.

 

Russia couldn't fall back to those areas immediately if they wanted to, they're kind of stuck. Between their columns running out of fuel, Ukrainians targeting their fuel supply and strategicly  blowing up their columns, the major roads are blocked by broken down Russian equipment... 

 

Plus Putin would be humiliated if he did call for his troops to fall back...

 

But yes, Russia wants more than those three regions.  They also demand permenant Ukraine neutrality. Something that Ukraine is open to...

 

The Foreign Ministers are set to meet in Turkey on Thursday. This could be over soon. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Joe wants us to believe his putrid policies and agenda have no impact , but I was paying up to $1.65 less a gallon when Trump was President. It was already $1.00 or more higher before Ukraine. Liberal fact checkers hit the snooze button again on this one. 

Yet Biden and crew had no problem accepting credit for the BLS jobs report last Friday which reported 678,000 jobs added to the economy in January.  So like all Presidents, when the news is good they take credit.  When its not they deflect the blame.  But voters rarely buy excuses and recent approval polls appear to reflect that sentiment.  As Truman is quoted to have said, "the buck stops here".

[TH3]

29 minutes ago, TSOL said:

 

 

It's been explained numerous times in this thread 

No. Most everyone here wants to take every freaking topic and bend it to try to substantiate their personal politics. Most of the times things are nondenominational. I have not seen anyone here express an understanding of how companies who deal in commodities strategize. When given an opportunity to keep a constricted supply in a growing market…they hold onto that situation as long as possible. COVID 19 lessened demand across the world….and worldwide production capacity followed suit. Demand increased as Cv eased and the oil companies/OPEC are holding on to the lessened production capacity as long as possible to keep prices up. Sooner or later increased capacity will come on line…but the suppliers hold on to this sweet spot as long as possible. Its called capitalism and pricing following the principles of elasticity and demand. Current pricing has Nothing to do with anything Biden has done in the last 12 months.

Edited March 9, 2022 by TH3

[John Adams]

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

I've seen estimates as high as ~25% of equipment destroyed or lost.  

 

There is a big time hype machine happening. Russia is advancing. 

 

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Tell it to the same 20 people who continue to explain gas prices in terms of the presidency whenever a democrat holds the executive and suddenly lose interest when a republican sits in the oval office.

 

Our lack of energy independence has been a series of decisions that pre-date Biden but Biden didn't do anything to make it better in his short term in office and of course, Russia is to blame for 99% of this. This idea of blaming Biden for Putin rolling tanks into Ukraine is just stupid. 

 

Trump would have been out of NATO by now saying how brilliant Putin is while hosting him at Mar-a-Lago. No I don't think Trump was Putin's puppet, except that Trump has a kind of man-crush on the world bullies. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by John Adams

[BillStime]

36 minutes ago, Albwan said:

The current democrat party %$#@ing hates America with a passion.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 minute ago, TH3 said:

No. Most everyone here wants to take every freaking topic and bend it to try to substantiate their personal politics. Most of the times things are nondenominational. I have not seen anyone here express an understanding of how companies who deal in commodities strategize. When given an opportunity to keep a constricted supply in a growing market…they hold onto that situation as long as possible. COVID 19 lessened demand across the world….and worldwide production capacity followed suit. Demand increased as Cv eased and the oil companies/OPEC are holding on to the lessened production capacity as long as possible to keep prices up. Sooner or later increased capacity will come on line…but the suppliers hold on to this sweet spot as long as possible. Its called capitalism and pricing following the principles of elasticity and demand.Nothing to do anything Biden has done in the last 12 months.

Except wrong. Energy is priced on futures and this administration has rolled out very deliberate policies across the political spectrum as well as structurally at the exploration and infrastructure development level and even as it pertains to financing development in the fossil fuel segment from Small to large. 
 

Expensive fossil fuels is the goal to make green energy economics work.

 

if you were a good dem you’d embrace and rejoice in this outcome. 
 

while externalities may have accelerated the impact, I’d say you are getting exactly what you wanted and even faster. 
 

Gas wouldn’t be $7 a gallon, Oil would be $7 a barrel if capitalism was able to go to work. 

[TSOL]

22 minutes ago, TH3 said:

No. Most everyone here wants to take every freaking topic and bend it to try to substantiate their personal politics. Most of the times things are nondenominational. I have not seen anyone here express an understanding of how companies who deal in commodities strategize. When given an opportunity to keep a constricted supply in a growing market…they hold onto that situation as long as possible. COVID 19 lessened demand across the world….and worldwide production capacity followed suit. Demand increased as Cv eased and the oil companies/OPEC are holding on to the lessened production capacity as long as possible to keep prices up. Sooner or later increased capacity will come on line…but the suppliers hold on to this sweet spot as long as possible. Its called capitalism and pricing following the principles of elasticity and demand. Current pricing has Nothing to do with anything Biden has done in the last 12 months.

 

13 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Except wrong. Energy is priced on futures and this administration has rolled out very deliberate policies across the political spectrum as well as structurally at the exploration and infrastructure development level and even as it pertains to financing development in the fossil fuel segment from Small to large. 
 

Expensive fossil fuels is the goal to make green energy economics work.

 

if you were a good dem you’d embrace and rejoice in this outcome. 
 

while externalities may have accelerated the impact, I’d say you are getting exactly what you wanted and even faster. 
 

Gas wouldn’t be $7 a gallon, Oil would be $7 a barrel if capitalism

as able to go to work. 

 

 

There, someone explained it again 

25 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

 

 

Trump would have been out of NATO by now saying how brilliant Putin is while hosting him at Mar-a-Lago. No I don't think Trump was Putin's puppet, except that Trump has a kind of man-crush on the world bullies. 

 

 

 

 

Trump would have the trident subs circling like great white sharks if he was in office. 

 

I firmly believe this wouldn't be happening if we didn't have an old dish rag as a president right now. 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

They want Ukraine to formally declare those regions independent, and permenantly cede Crimea to Russia. They've been fighting over these areas for 8 years.

 

Russia couldn't fall back to those areas immediately if they wanted to, they're kind of stuck. Between their columns running out of fuel, Ukrainians targeting their fuel supply and strategicly  blowing up their columns, the major roads are blocked by broken down Russian equipment... 

 

Plus Putin would be humiliated if he did call for his troops to fall back...

 

But yes, Russia wants more than those three regions.  They also demand permenant Ukraine neutrality. Something that Ukraine is open to...

 

The Foreign Ministers are set to meet in Turkey on Thursday. This could be over soon. 

Let’s hope 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

They want Ukraine to formally declare those regions independent, and permenantly cede Crimea to Russia. They've been fighting over these areas for 8 years.

 

Russia couldn't fall back to those areas immediately if they wanted to, they're kind of stuck. Between their columns running out of fuel, Ukrainians targeting their fuel supply and strategicly  blowing up their columns, the major roads are blocked by broken down Russian equipment... 

 

Plus Putin would be humiliated if he did call for his troops to fall back...

 

But yes, Russia wants more than those three regions.  They also demand permenant Ukraine neutrality. Something that Ukraine is open to...

 

The Foreign Ministers are set to meet in Turkey on Thursday. This could be over soon. 

 

What's good for Ukraine is good for Ukraine, and we can't hold their choices against them.  We aren't fighting.

 

But those terms would let Putin spin this as a victory, and set him or a successor up for round 2.  It would guarantee Ukraine's short term survival at the cost of any guarantee of long term security.

 

If Ukraine gave up Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea forever in exchange for NATO and EU membership, they'd actually be a sovereign nation.  Instead of trusting Tsar Vladimir the Insane or whoever follows him...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

 

 

There, someone explained it again 

 

 

 

Don’t mean to be redundant but it seems like there is no limit to the Value of drilling fundamentals over again with the hope the disciples see through the fog

[sherpa]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:18 PM, sherpa said:

I'm not sure this three party agreement to get Mig 29's to Ukraine is going to be effective.

 

Where are they going to base them?

I cannot imagine that Ukrainian air bases are still operational, or would be within the time frame required.

I'm unsure of the differences between Polish Mig variants and those provided to the Ukraine Air Force.

Sometimes the differences are minor, sometimes they're not.

 

 

Told ya.

Aint happenin'.

[OrangeBills]

12 hours ago, ALF said:

 

Too bad US oil companies hate the US so much . How has their cost of oil production gone up drastically in the last month, it hasn't.

 

Geezus Christ.  Our society is so doomed

[OrangeBills]

4 hours ago, TH3 said:

Got ANY back up to substantiate ANY OF THIS? And no ….Biden sucks not good enough….How has any Biden policy affected any current supply capacity? No…Keystone and No ….lack of new drilling permits did not change US supply capacities……there are literally thousands of drilled and capped wells and thousands of already permitted areas not drilled….Please point me to an actual legislative policy and actual quantitative result …..

Yes you got it correct in the last sentence 

 

You just don't understand economic incentives and decisions, like at all.  It's OK

 

Most Leftists don't

[ALF]

3 hours ago, OrangeBills said:

 

Geezus Christ.  Our society is so doomed

 

So justify US oil companies obscene profits and say it's not price gouging. Use facts not opinion.

[Tiberius]

8 hours ago, OrangeBills said:

 

You just don't understand economic incentives and decisions, like at all.  It's OK

 

Most Leftists don't

I dunno, Conservatives actually think Trump is a good businessman 😆