Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[BillStime]

30 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

When I saw you posted my first thought was how are you going to spin this to make it about Trump.  And here it is.  You're as predictable as the Sun rising and setting each day my friend.  But you really need to let go of this Trump obsession.  Accepting the fact he's gone is the first step.    

 

As soon as the cult drops its obsession with Conald as the driver of your party I'll move on... 

 

Until then, America and its future is far more important than your insecurities and feelings.

[Tiberius]

39 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

When I saw you posted my first thought was how are you going to spin this to make it about Trump.  And here it is.  You're as predictable as the Sun rising and setting each day my friend.  But you really need to let go of this Trump obsession.  Accepting the fact he's gone is the first step.    

B-man likes your post. He posted a Trump quote earlier.

[L Ron Burgundy]

I'm starting to think, and hope I would admit, that this is smoke and mirrors from Putin.  He's putting the screws to Ukraine by bluffing a show of force.   It will impact them economically.  He'll have his own people in West Ukraine sowing dissent as well.

 

I sincerely hope there's no conflict but if I'm wrong I hope we support Ukraine without sending troops.  

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

                     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

          

 

 

 

 

Right wingers see Putin as a strong leader. Just look how this cartoonist characterizes that murderous monster. Why not show him poisoning his opposition? That’s today’s right wing, glorifying the authoritarian trash bent on crush free societies. Is this guy getting paid by the Kremlin? 

[BillStime]

51 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Right wingers see Putin as a strong leader. Just look how this cartoonist characterizes that murderous monster. Why not show him poisoning his opposition? That’s today’s right wing, glorifying the authoritarian trash bent on crush free societies. Is this guy getting paid by the Kremlin? 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

 

Sad news for U.S. establishment war hawks from discussions held yesterday in France.  Progress on what could lead to a peaceful and mutually beneficial solution.  Notable is without the U.S. or NATO at the table.  You need to pay close attention to the details here because its what you might call a "non-binary situation" as there multiple parties with multiple interests and multiple objectives at play. Not the simpleton good vs. bad world view.   

 

"Officials from Russia and Ukraine met in Paris on Wednesday and held what Moscow described as "tough" talks. Despite whatever difficulties there were, the two sides agreed that the ceasefire in Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region must be upheld.  German and French officials were also present for the meeting, which lasted eight hours. The four countries started holding talks together after the Donbas war started in 2014 in a forum known as the Normandy format."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

Good.  Leave us out of it.  Joey's and Hunter's dirty secrets are still kept, though.

[Albwan]

...Biden's handlers hope....

[Doc]

Code for "destroy all the incriminating evidence against me!"

[RaoulDuke79]

Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco negated any credibility the US had. Russia will invade Ukraine as a test. Depending on the outcome, China will then invade Taiwan....Dont be fooled. China is the #1 world power. 

[ALF]

More severe sanctions on Russia expect severe cyber attacks in return and vice versa , would be ugly.

[SoCal Deek]

I’ll put a different spin on this for discussion purposes. If Canada started making suggestions that they were about to join in a strategic alliance with Russia that would allow Putin to put weapons in Vancouver don’t you think the United States would try and deter that alliance? I’m betting we would. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

33 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll put a different spin on this for discussion purposes. If Canada started making suggestions that they were about to join in a strategic alliance with Russia that would allow Putin to put weapons in Vancouver don’t you think the United States would try and deter that alliance? I’m betting we would. 

You seem to be suffering from the same affliction as me.  Which is an ability to view events and situations objectively.  And to understand the world is not right vs. wrong, or good vs. evil.  What matters is perspective.  Everything is relative not absolute. 

When negotiating with another party, working to produce an agreement, there are a couple critical things.  Primarily, there needs to be a genuine desire to reach a negotiated settlement between the parties.  Another is understanding what you want out of the negotiation.  Maybe more critical is understanding what your counterpart wants out of the negotiation.  And then, objectively and rationally assessing both positions and defining what you think both parties would agree to and what you'd be willing to concede and what you view as vital interests on which you won't yield.  While going through the same thought process regarding your counterpart.

Wha does Russia want here?  Simply guarantees the U.S. and/or NATO will not park troops and strategic or tactical weapons right across their border in Ukraine.  Plain and simple.  If the U.S. conceded that point all potential hostilities would immediately come to an end.  But at present the U.S. is unwilling to concede that point.  You need to understand it is vital to Russia's interests to not have those weapons parked right across their border.  The question from our perspective is what is our vital national interest in having those weapons systems hosted there?  If you say to keep Ukraine from being invaded I'd suggest it is the very potential to host those weapons that puts them in harms way.  

And in your hypothetical Vancouver example with roles reversed the U.S. would also be insistent on the same terms and conditions as Russia is regarding Ukraine.  And the same people shouting bloody murder over some potential for Russia to invade Ukraine to stop the deployment of NATO weapons there would be 100% insistent the U.S. consider all options to protect our country including the threat of invading Vancouver.

Sadly, many people just can't think objectively.  Whether its emotional or intellectual immaturity or a lack of life experience I am not certain.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You seem to be suffering from the same affliction as me.  Which is an ability to view events and situations objectively.  And to understand the world is not right vs. wrong, or good vs. evil.  What matters is perspective.  Everything is relative not absolute. 

When negotiating with another party, working to produce an agreement, there are a couple critical things.  Primarily, there needs to be a genuine desire to reach a negotiated settlement between the parties.  Another is understanding what you want out of the negotiation.  Maybe more critical is understanding what your counterpart wants out of the negotiation.  And then, objectively and rationally assessing both positions and defining what you think both parties would agree to and what you'd be willing to concede and what you view as vital interests on which you won't yield.  While going through the same thought process regarding your counterpart.

Wha does Russia want here?  Simply guarantees the U.S. and/or NATO will not park troops and strategic or tactical weapons right across their border in Ukraine.  Plain and simple.  If the U.S. conceded that point all potential hostilities would immediately come to an end.  But at present the U.S. is unwilling to concede that point.  You need to understand it is vital to Russia's interests to not have those weapons parked right across their border.  The question from our perspective is what is our vital national interest in having those weapons systems hosted there?  If you say to keep Ukraine from being invaded I'd suggest it is the very potential to host those weapons that puts them in harms way.  

And in your hypothetical Vancouver example with roles reversed the U.S. would also be insistent on the same terms and conditions as Russia is regarding Ukraine.  And the same people shouting bloody murder over some potential for Russia to invade Ukraine to stop the deployment of NATO weapons there would be 100% insistent the U.S. consider all options to protect our country including the threat of invading Vancouver.

Sadly, many people just can't think objectively.  Whether its emotional or intellectual immaturity or a lack of life experience I am not certain.

 

 

Thanks. I come here to have reasonable and reasoned discussions with people about political subjects other than Bills football. Unfortunately, so many posters on here are so tribal that they can't see past the partisan nonsense. There is no reason for us to be doing anything in Ukraine right now, other than having some really serious discussions with the Ukrainians.

 

And...I'm just not technically sharp enough to find and paste really childish memes! 😉

[ALF]

It would be safer for everyone if Ukraine and Belarus would be neutral . There are no plans that I know of for Ukraine to become part of NATO or US to send troops into Ukraine.

[Tiberius]

Quote

The U.S. military has issued “prepare to deploy” orders to 8,500 personnel who are likely to be headed to Eastern Europe — Biden has ruled out sending ground troops to Ukraine — although Pentagon spokesman John Kirby told reporters Monday that a final decision had not been made.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/01/ukraine-russia-putin-blinken-diplomacy-nato/

[Tiberius]

Alright Biden!! And people say he doesn't know what he os doing? Just see what this Trump supporter is saying: “But it is already clear that Russia’s fundamental concerns have been ignored,” Putin said. “NATO refers to the right of countries to choose freely, but you cannot strengthen someone’s security at the expense of others.”

[Doc]

If only Trump could have "supported" Putin anywhere near as much as Joey did gifting him Nord Stream 2...

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Alright Biden!! And people say he doesn't know what he os doing? Just see what this Trump supporter is saying: “But it is already clear that Russia’s fundamental concerns have been ignored,” Putin said. “NATO refers to the right of countries to choose freely, but you cannot strengthen someone’s security at the expense of others.”

I’m not sure why this issue is so confusing for you….but it clearly is. 

[Westside]

On 1/29/2022 at 9:12 PM, RaoulDuke79 said:

Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco negated any credibility the US had. Russia will invade Ukraine as a test. Depending on the outcome, China will then invade Taiwan....Dont be fooled. China is the #1 world power. 

Well, china paid big money to the bidens to destroy America.