Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[BillStime]

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Former President Donald Trump again said Wednesday that if he returns to the White House, he would not defend NATO members that don’t meet defense spending targets, days after he set off alarms in Europe by suggesting he would tell Russia to attack NATO allies he considered delinquent.

Speaking at a campaign rally in South Carolina, he retold the story of his alleged conversation with the head of a NATO member country that had not met its obligations. This time, though, he left out the line that drew the most outrage — encouraging Russia “to do whatever the hell they want.”

 

Russia First!

 

[sherpa]

Again Tibs, I am pleased you found it worthwhile.

But.....You asserted that there was something in there that there wasn't, and you did that to inject some political thing that was not in that interview.

 

They never said a thing related to politics. They mentioned how the weapons supply would have helped them more if it came earlier.

That has been a most obvious point of this whole situation, but they always avoid politics, something you can't do and cheapens the discussion.

 

It is frustrating to bring interesting, well thought out and expressed views into this and many other subjects, and have someone absolutely determine to sully the conversation with an attempt at blatant political nonsense. 

 

The reasons the aid was not provided at the earliest time was because of US politics involving far more that aid to Ukraine. It involved border issues and aid to Israel. 

That is how US politics works.

[Doc]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. (AP) — Former President Donald Trump again said Wednesday that if he returns to the White House, he would not defend NATO members that don’t meet defense spending targets, days after he set off alarms in Europe by suggesting he would tell Russia to attack NATO allies he considered delinquent.

Speaking at a campaign rally in South Carolina, he retold the story of his alleged conversation with the head of a NATO member country that had not met its obligations. This time, though, he left out the line that drew the most outrage — encouraging Russia “to do whatever the hell they want.”

 

And?

[Big Blitz]

Democracy’s fiery ordeal hahaha lock this thread up

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Democracy’s fiery ordeal hahaha lock this thread up

 

 

 

Sacrificing the Ukrainian people? By saving them from Russian despotism? What drugs are you on?

[All_Pro_Bills]

21 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Sacrificing the Ukrainian people? By saving them from Russian despotism? What drugs are you on?

So you believe 500K dead Ukrainian soldiers along with dead and displaced civilians with most of the country in chaos have been "saved" and are enjoying the benefits of US intervention in the affairs of their country? Sure the Russians are wrong and their actions are to be denounced and resisted but to think our government is doing those people a favor by putting a pro-western government in power is the height of insanity. Now tell me something other than how evil Putin is because this thing isn't going to end well for anybody.

Edited June 10 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So you believe 500K dead Ukrainian soldiers along with dead and displaced civilians with most of the country in chaos have been "saved" and are enjoying the benefits of US intervention in the affairs of their country? Sure the Russians are wrong and their actions are to be denounced and resisted but to think our government is doing those people a favor by putting a pro-western government in power is the height of insanity. Now tell me something other than how evil Putin is because this thing isn't going to end well for anybody.

By allowing them to defend themselves? Ya, how dare we!!??!! Are you on drugs?

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

By allowing them to defend themselves? Ya, how dare we!!??!! Are you on drugs?

 

Then let’s go get some oil in Iran and Iraq to.  
 

And preserve Democracy 

 

 

What drugs are you on?  This fake war was justified under “preserving dEmOcRaCy” and here we have the War Hawk in Chief telling you um……no it isn’t.  
 

And you don’t have any reaction.  Insane.  

[Tiberius]

20 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Then let’s go get some oil in Iran and Iraq to.  
 

And preserve Democracy 

 

 

What drugs are you on?  This fake war was justified under “preserving dEmOcRaCy” and here we have the War Hawk in Chief telling you um……no it isn’t.  
 

And you don’t have any reaction.  Insane.  

Trump does not like Ukraine, therefore, you don't

 

That's it

[Big Blitz]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Trump does not like Ukraine, therefore, you don't

 

That's it

 

Omg

[BillStime]

LFG!!!!!

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

By allowing them to defend themselves? Ya, how dare we!!??!! Are you on drugs?

More like sacrificing them in a proxy war while paying off their political leaders and oligarchs. The standard blood for money arrangement.   

 

The question is how far are we willing to go? Are they going to "green light" bombing raids on Russia to be flown out of NATO country bases? And if the Russians consider those bases "fair game" and attack them to destroy those aircraft then what? Article 5? So then NATO forces attack Russia with overwhelming conventional forces and Russia rather than lose the battle and territory deploy tactical nuclear weapons? Are they bluffing about their will to do this? What if they're not? Will we respond? And then they launch ICBM's on cities like NY and Washington. EMP discharges take out electric grids and the world plunges into darkness. And we respond back and its lights out for the human race and civilization for a few hundred years or more.

 

Are western leaders willing to risk the end of the world and my life and the lives of the people I'm responsible for and everyone else on the planet along with almost all animal and plant species in order to "save Ukrainian democracy"? In the context of that cost I suggest your democracy at all costs looks like an expensive proposition.

 

Because this is ultimately where we're headed and if anyone things otherwise, well, they might be the one's on drugs.

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

More like sacrificing them in a proxy war while paying off their political leaders and oligarchs. The standard blood for money arrangement.   

 

The question is how far are we willing to go? Are they going to "green light" bombing raids on Russia to be flown out of NATO country bases? And if the Russians consider those bases "fair game" and attack them to destroy those aircraft then what? Article 5? So then NATO forces attack Russia with overwhelming conventional forces and Russia rather than lose the battle and territory deploy tactical nuclear weapons? Are they bluffing about their will to do this? What if they're not? Will we respond? And then they launch ICBM's on cities like NY and Washington. EMP discharges take out electric grids and the world plunges into darkness. And we respond back and its lights out for the human race and civilization for a few hundred years or more.

 

Are western leaders willing to risk the end of the world and my life and the lives of the people I'm responsible for and everyone else on the planet along with almost all animal and plant species in order to "save Ukrainian democracy"? In the context of that cost I suggest your democracy at all costs looks like an expensive proposition.

 

Because this is ultimately where we're headed and if anyone things otherwise, well, they might be the one's on drugs.

Allowing them to save their own lives is, in your opinion, hurting them.

 

That's just too stupid

 

Are you a Russian disinformation bot? Or are you just really a clown?

[Doc]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So you believe 500K dead Ukrainian soldiers along with dead and displaced civilians with most of the country in chaos have been "saved" and are enjoying the benefits of US intervention in the affairs of their country? Sure the Russians are wrong and their actions are to be denounced and resisted but to think our government is doing those people a favor by putting a pro-western government in power is the height of insanity. Now tell me something other than how evil Putin is because this thing isn't going to end well for anybody.

 

If only Blinken were as gung-ho about a peace treaty between Russia and Ukraine as he is Israel and the terrorist group...

[L Ron Burgundy]

4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So you believe 500K dead Ukrainian soldiers along with dead and displaced civilians with most of the country in chaos have been "saved" and are enjoying the benefits of US intervention in the affairs of their country? Sure the Russians are wrong and their actions are to be denounced and resisted but to think our government is doing those people a favor by putting a pro-western government in power is the height of insanity. Now tell me something other than how evil Putin is because this thing isn't going to end well for anybody.

Ah there it is!  The conspiracy you love so much!  

 

Where is there any proof we put a pro western government in power?  

 

Also, your argument leads me to believe that if the US were attacked by China on Monday you'd be fumbling through Mandarin by Tuesday.  Would you personally be so willing to give up your freedom?  Sounds like you think Ukraine should just turn the other cheek and let Russia take over.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Allowing them to save their own lives is, in your opinion, hurting them.

 

That's just too stupid

 

Are you a Russian disinformation bot? Or are you just really a clown?

You're willing to risk the extermination of the human race and all life on Earth for a country you couldn't find on a map 4 years ago. Do you idiots realize it was already a democracy before we got involved with the Maidan coup? Yes, they had elections and elected Presidents and legislative representatives before we showed up. Amazing. All on their own without our help. That regime wasn't perfect but it was certainly no less democratic than the Zelensky regime. I don't recall them kidnapping citizens off the streets and force them to die on the front lines of some battlefield. With democracy like that who needs dictators. 

 

You'd rather die in a nuclear holocaust than admit this is a no-win situation and acknowledge negotiating some sort of settlement is the only path forward. Unfortunately, the people setting U.S. policy are very slow learners even bigger dummies. Just looking at the history of U.S. nation building interventions provides a clear picture of failure. How many more billions are they going to drop down the rat hole before they figure it out?

5 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Ah there it is!  The conspiracy you love so much!  

 

Where is there any proof we put a pro western government in power?  

 

Also, your argument leads me to believe that if the US were attacked by China on Monday you'd be fumbling through Mandarin by Tuesday.  Would you personally be so willing to give up your freedom?  Sounds like you think Ukraine should just turn the other cheek and let Russia take over.

Its no conspiracy theory. That's what Maidan was all about. Its a fact. Look up Victoria Nuland. But regardless, at the moment its simply a lost cause. Admit it or waste more time, money, and lives proving I'm right. But you guys aren't bright enough to know a lost cause. Its 28 to 0 with 40 seconds left in the game and you still think we can win. Time to negotiate.

Edited June 10 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You're willing to risk the extermination of the human race and all life on Earth for a country you couldn't find on a map 4 years ago.

You would love it if we backed down every time Putin threatened nuclear war. It's not happening. Putin is so afraid of covid he sits at a super long table. Ya, he's willing to put his ass on the line.

 

Next dumb argument?

[All_Pro_Bills]

8 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

You would love it if we backed down every time Putin threatened nuclear war. It's not happening. Putin is so afraid of covid he sits at a super long table. Ya, he's willing to put his ass on the line.

 

Next dumb argument?

I've seen a lot of people who wouldn't back down when the conditions warranted that approach get the livin' crap kicked out of them. If you think the other guy is bluffing you better make sure. So far I don't see any evidence Putin is bluffing. He clearly articulated Russia's "red line" and their security concerns and when that line was crossed and their concerns ignored, right or wrong, he attacked. What makes you so sure he's bluffing? Because if you're wrong there's no second chance. Beyond your democracy mantra and your moralizing you can't even articulate what America's security interest is with Ukraine. Because there isn't one. Sure, isolating and weakening Russia can be a benefit but when the costs are greater than the benefits its time to re-evaluate your thinking. Remember that? Thinking. Try it.

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I've seen a lot of people who wouldn't back down when the conditions warranted that approach get the livin' crap kicked out of them. If you think the other guy is bluffing you better make sure. So far I don't see any evidence Putin is bluffing. He clearly articulated Russia's "red line" and their security concerns and when that line was crossed and their concerns ignored, right or wrong, he attacked. What makes you so sure he's bluffing? Because if you're wrong there's no second chance. Beyond your democracy mantra and your moralizing you can't even articulate what America's security interest is with Ukraine. Because there isn't one. Sure, isolating and weakening Russia can be a benefit but when the costs are greater than the benefits its time to re-evaluate your thinking. Remember that? Thinking. Try it.

 

Because Putin is gonna invade a NATO country next!  It's going on 2-1/2 years with Ukraine, who has minimal support from NATO but, by golly, Putin's going to take over Europe!

[L Ron Burgundy]

37 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You're willing to risk the extermination of the human race and all life on Earth for a country you couldn't find on a map 4 years ago. Do you idiots realize it was already a democracy before we got involved with the Maidan coup? Yes, they had elections and elected Presidents and legislative representatives before we showed up. Amazing. All on their own without our help. That regime wasn't perfect but it was certainly no less democratic than the Zelensky regime. I don't recall them kidnapping citizens off the streets and force them to die on the front lines of some battlefield. With democracy like that who needs dictators. 

 

You'd rather die in a nuclear holocaust than admit this is a no-win situation and acknowledge negotiating some sort of settlement is the only path forward. Unfortunately, the people setting U.S. policy are very slow learners even bigger dummies. Just looking at the history of U.S. nation building interventions provides a clear picture of failure. How many more billions are they going to drop down the rat hole before they figure it out?

Its no conspiracy theory. That's what Maidan was all about. Its a fact. Look up Victoria Nuland. But regardless, at the moment its simply a lost cause. Admit it or waste more time, money, and lives proving I'm right. But you guys aren't bright enough to know a lost cause. Its 28 to 0 with 40 seconds left in the game and you still think we can win. Time to negotiate.

No it's definitely a conspiracy theory.   You'd point to facts otherwise, but none exist.  It's a story you like because it helps your narrative.   

 

Step out of your echo chamber and you'll see even if Russia "wins" they already lost.  Demographics don't lie.  Their time as a super power is ending,  a mirage though it may have been.  And fact is they are barely making any gains and when they do often they lose ground elsewhere.