Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

40 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

What do you do when said no fly zone over territory that isn’t ours is violated by Russian migs? 
 

do you have any idea what a battle for air superiority over a foreign land verses an Air Force of 800+ advanced fighter jets looks like? 

Bingo.  How do you enforce a "no fly" zone declaration?  One the Russians aren't going to recognize.  There isn't any alternative to committing American aircraft and support personnel to engage Russian aircraft and ground support positions in combat.  So now you're at war with Russia.  What am I missing? 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

I am new here, and I didn't want your voices to be missed. Perhaps you missed the post about Russian export energy to the US and EU, and how those payments are being processed despite 'UN Sanctions' to stop the war?

and I’ve been here a while 

 

I don’t come into the PPP basement often

 

Putin will do what Putin wants like lil Kim of NK

 

Arguing their methods here  won’t  do squat 

 

if I wanted to replay to you I would have 

 

so kindly don’t tag me again in the PPP

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

11 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

It’s funny how Trumpsters  are waving Regan banners nowadays 

 

just 12 months ago they were bowing before golden statues of Agent Orange 

 

also amazing they are not critical of his ongoing support of Putin.  
 

 

 

This wasn't you? Based on this post I thought you would have an opinion on the situation?

 

It was strongly worded.

 

I will try to include others since you do not care to back up your opinions.

Edited March 2, 2022 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[SCBills]

Some of this stuff continues to catch my side eye.  
 

We’ve been hearing all week that massive amounts of Russian troops have surrendered because they didn’t even know they were being sent to war.  
 

However, Russian turncoats who surrendered - according to Ukrainian sources - tipped them off of to a Chechen hit squad in Kyiv to assassinate Zelenskyy, which the Ukrainians then promptly killed.  
 

So… we’ve been told only the highest up leaders knew of the plans they were involved in, but they also were privy to an assassination attempt by a Chechen hit squad?

 

Alright…

[Niagara Bill]

Putin invades Ukrainr, threatens nukes, now plans for Moldova are revealed.

At what point does Nato, the rest of the world, except China, N. Korea and Iraq, step in and threaten nukes back, or strike. 

More and more it appears Putin is pushing past Ukraine. His campaign of cyber attacks to US, England, etc also reported to be increasing. 

IMHO, Beware the Ides of March.

[ALF]

38 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 
 

However, Russian turncoats who surrendered - according to Ukrainian sources - tipped them off of to a Chechen hit squad in Kyiv to assassinate Zelenskyy, which the Ukrainians then promptly killed.  
 

So… we’ve been told only the highest up leaders knew of the plans they were involved in, but they also were privy to an assassination attempt by a Chechen hit squad?

 

 

FWIW    

"The special operation that was to be carried out directly by the Kadyrovites to eliminate our president is fully known to us today, and I can say that we received information from representatives of the FSB, who today have no desire to take part in this bloody war," he said. 

The FSB is in reference to Russia's Federal Security Service. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chechen-hit-squad-sent-murder-zelenskyy-eliminated

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

11 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Putin invades Ukrainr, threatens nukes, now plans for Moldova are revealed.

At what point does Nato, the rest of the world, except China, N. Korea and Iraq, step in and threaten nukes back, or strike. 

More and more it appears Putin is pushing past Ukraine. His campaign of cyber attacks to US, England, etc also reported to be increasing. 

IMHO, Beware the Ides of March.

one thing that might happen is we quietly pay and send in our corporate mercenary force that can pose as conscientious objectors responding to Zelenskis call for warriors. If any of them are still around those guys were combat hardened and always looking for some hazard pay. 

[SCBills]

14 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

FWIW    

"The special operation that was to be carried out directly by the Kadyrovites to eliminate our president is fully known to us today, and I can say that we received information from representatives of the FSB, who today have no desire to take part in this bloody war," he said. 

The FSB is in reference to Russia's Federal Security Service. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/chechen-hit-squad-sent-murder-zelenskyy-eliminated

Not to be ultra-contrarian, but keeping Zelenskyy alive is exactly what keeps this bloody war ongoing.  
 

We can root for Ukraine, and should absolutely support them with weapons - because they want to fight - but the more they want to fight, the bloodier this gets… *assuming the West doesn’t get directly involved.  
 

I am in no way suggesting assassination is a good thing.  Zelenskyy is inspiring and embodies the Ukrainian spirit, but from a Russian perspective - the war only gets bloodier with him continuing to resist. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by SCBills

[ALF]

In any war there is a lot of psyops

 

What keeps the war going is Putin's fear of Ukraine joining NATO 

Edited March 2, 2022 by ALF

[BillStime]

10 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

Interesting response. So politics are in play now? I wonder how Ukrainians feel about this?

 

Let's dig in.

 

I looked at WTI Crude Oil Prices from February 1, 2021 to February 1, 2022.

https://www.macrotrends.net/2516/wti-crude-oil-prices-10-year-daily-chart

 

It looks like WTI crude went from $53.55 per barrel on Feb 1, 2021 to $88.20 a barrel on Feb 1, 2022, before the invasion.

If my math is correct, that is a 39% increase in one year. I would call that a price shock before any invasion happened.

Why did this shock happen? Is the 39% increase in oil prices a major factor in the 7-8% inflation we have seen?

 

WTI is not all oil production, but because of the cartel nature of oil production there are usually not arbitrage opportunities available, so this should be a good measure of oil costs. I admit It is a wholly domestic price. Anyone with data showing significantly different prices is welcome to counter my data and we will synthesize it.

 

If prices are up 39% year over year, why would the blocking of about 1 million barrels of crude daily from Russia create a much bigger shock, if we are truly behind helping Ukraine retain sovereignty? It honestly doesn't hold up to factual scrutiny.

 

A ban on oil imports from Russia should be imposed, if the USA truly wants to stop the Russo-Ukrainian War. There would be a small increase in gas prices, but it would pale in comparison to the price shocks in place since Feb 1, 2021. The inflation and price shock has already happened. In my opinion we should be looking to why the price rose 39% in one year, and why the USA started importing Russian Oil after a 6-7 year hiatus under Obama and Trump. Two politicians who could not be more different, on the surface, both blocked Russian oil imports.

 

Obama - blocked Russian oil imports for his last 2 years

Trump - blocked Russian oil imports for 4 years, blocked Russian Nord Stream 2 approvals in Europe, supported Keystone Pipeline

Biden - approved Russian oil imports to the tune of 220 million barrels in 2021, approved Russian Nord Stream 2, blocked Keystone Pipeline

 

Anyone care to explain how Trump's actions were 'pro Russia' and how Biden's actions were 'anti-Russia'?

That argument does not make any sense since 40-50% of Russia's state budget is based on energy exports.

 

As for natural gas. USA output of Nat Gas in the USA has been:

(millions of cubic feet)

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9050us2a.htm

2015: 28,772,044 - Obama

2016: 28,400,049 - Obama's last year

2017: 29,237,825 - Trump

2018: 33,008,867 - Trump

2019: 36,446,918 - Trump

2020: 36,202,446 - Trump

2021: 37,015,049 - Biden's first year

 

The common theme among Republicans is that Natural Gas production has been harmed by the Biden Administration.

 

False, Natural Gas production has increased so far under Biden.

 

True, natural gas production soared under Trump 20%+, with a dip in 2020 probably due to COVID. This helped the US become energy independent and allowed exports to Europe. Despite media contention, Biden did not stop any actual existing production, but did stop new production from coming online by blocking the Keystone Pipeline and limiting permits on Federal Land.

Can you clarify or provide a source where Obama and Trump blocked Russian oil imports?

 

U.S. Imports from Russia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Product

[SCBills]

11 minutes ago, ALF said:

In any war there is a lot of psyops

 

What keeps the war going is Putin's fear of Ukraine joining NATO 

Agreed.  
 

But when you are aware that our media just manipulates us, nonstop, it’s gaslighting to see them take action to ban Russian disinformation, when we’re being fed 24/7 Ukrainian disinformation.  
 

Some of us are capable of making judgments without the media telling how to think.  
 

Ive done my own research.  I know Putin’s reasoning.  I’ve read up about the atrocities by the Azov Battalion in the South/East of Ukraine.  I’ve read about how US backed a coup and supports actual neo-Nazis in that country.  (Small potion of the country). I know about the corruption within the country and how it’s manipulated by the West.   
 

But still.. I’m absolutely in support of Ukraine, a free/innocent people, free ideals, and a flawed leader who has stepped up to the moment and deserves the entire worlds respect.  
 

I don’t need to be manipulated into thinking that.   It’s all incredibly frustrating to be sold a movie version of a war.  

And furthermore, the calls are coming for direct involvement.  “It’s the right thing to do”… maybe, but there will be American deaths, lost limbs, and fathers, sons, mothers, sisters lost as we pick and choose who we defend around the world.   And that’s assuming Putin’s bluffing on nukes. 
 

Edited March 2, 2022 by SCBills

[TH3]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Agreed.  
 

But when you are aware that our media just manipulates us, nonstop, it’s gaslighting to see them take action to ban Russian disinformation, when we’re being fed 24/7 Ukrainian disinformation.  
 

Some of us are capable of making judgments without the media telling how to think.  
 

Ive done my own research.  I know Putin’s reasoning.  I’ve read up about the atrocities by the Azov Battalion in the South/East of Ukraine.  I’ve read about how US backed a coup and supports actual neo-Nazis in that country.  (Small potion of the country).   
 

But still.. I’m absolutely in support of Ukraine, a free/innocent people, free ideals, and a flawed leader who has stepped up to the moment and deserves the entire worlds respect.  
 

I don’t need to be manipulated into thinking that.   It’s all incredibly frustrating to be sold a movie version of a war.  

I can't believe you haven't been hired by someone somewhere to consult on this war....such insight...such a prism you look through... 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, ALF said:

In any war there is a lot of psyops

 

What keeps the war going is Putin's fear of Ukraine joining NATO 

Putin's problem is his actions rather than supporting Russia's security interests have clearly demonstrated Ukraine's need to join NATO.  I understand the Donetsk and Lugansk autonomy declaration but the attack on the rest of Ukraine is shear madness and contrary to the interests of all parties, including Russia.     

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

What do you do when said no fly zone over territory that isn’t ours is violated by Russian migs? 
 

do you have any idea what a battle for air superiority over a foreign land verses an Air Force of 800+ advanced fighter jets looks like? 

We’d own the Russian Air Force. 

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, TH3 said:

I can't believe you haven't been hired by someone somewhere to consult on this war....such insight...such a prism you look through... 

 

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

That’s right, cities with millions of people are being bombarded by shells. That’s not propaganda, it’s the truth. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

 

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

 

American media is manipulating us, with Ukrainian propaganda, into war. 
 

This isn’t a game.  
 

They could do the same to us with Yemen, Somalia or Ethiopia but they don’t benefit us or look like us.  
 

Russia is obviously the aggressor.   Ukraine is a sovereign country being full scale invaded.  
 

But our media and politicians are playing a dangerous game that will result in dead Americans… and then we’ll wonder why we didn’t learn anything from Iraq.  
 

Some may think American sacrifice of life is worth it to stop this.  And i don’t particularly blame them.  But, again, this isn’t a game.  This isn’t a movie script.  And that’s what we’re being shown. 

A lot of armchair Generals here advocating for direct U.S. military involvement appear to be basing their views of war on Rambo 2 and 3 with some 1,000 to 1 kill ratio.  But when they live the experience of their mother, father, brother, sister, or best friends coming back from some foreign adventure in a box covered by the flag the idea of war might not seem so noble or just. 

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

12 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

I'm not a registered Democrat or registered Republican.

 

I do want to ask a fundamental question that I think a lot of the 34% or so of independents and third party members want to ask.

Regardless of your political affiliation, if you want to see this war stopped, and I think we all do, we should ask the following questions.

• 1) If the USA wants to put a stop to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, then why doesn't it stop importing oil from Russia?
• 2) Why don't Germany and the EU stop the flow of natural gas from Nord Stream 1, which bypasses Ukraine and Poland, to Germany, and by extension Europe?

Very simple question.

 

Also, if all banks are being banned from transactions to Russia, and all international settlements systems like SWIFT have been stopped, then how is the USA paying for this oil, and how is Germany/ EU paying for its natural gas?

@John Adams @Over 29 years of fanhood @All_Pro_Bills @Doc @Warcodered @BillStime @SC BIlls Fan @Tiberius

 

You guys have a lot of good thoughts.

Why are we not just cutting off Russian oil supplies like Obama did in 2014-2016?

 

Even dummy Trump followed Obama's lead and imported no Russian oil from 2016-2020 (in honesty there was a dribble in Dec 2020)

Why did Biden import 220 million plus barrels of Russian oil in 2021 after Trump imported 0 and Obama imported 0 for his last 2 years?

Seems backwards to me. Biden must be smarter than all of us.

 

Did that help fund the current war? If Russia gets 30-50% of it's government funding from oil, and we go from importing 0 barrels under Obama and even Trump, to importing 220 million barrels a year under Biden, even at the low cost of $52 a barrel, isn't that $10 billion or so US Dollars to Russia that they did not get under Obama or Trump? Maybe I am bad at math. $52 (minimum) * 220,000,000 (minimum)

 

I am sure you have Green New Deal math that will fix it and explain it all for me. Should we meet in Paris to discuss it??

 

What has been the US investment in weapons in Ukraine over the past 10 years? Certainly no one would want to profit from weapons production and death, that is not Democratic at all! We wouldn't do such a thing!

 

If the USA is taking 'tough sanctions' against Russia, but is still importing 750k - 1,000,000 million barrels of oil a day from Russia, is that really tough sanctions?

 

I guess I don't understand how buying things from someone at a profit makes them weaker. You will have to explain that to me with your fancy economics. Even Obama understood this was a bad idea, and I don't think he was good at economics.

 

CNN and MNBC, who only tell the truth, said all international payments systems like SWIFT to Russia were being shut down.

How is Russia getting paid for all of that oil and natural gas then?!?! Is Russia doing it all on good credit to the USA/NATO?

CNN and MSNBC also said Russia is invading to stop USA/NATO from encroaching on Ukraine. So confusing. Is Russia potentially fueling its own enemy? Or is it getting rich from it? So confusing. Crazy talk, darned Russians.... they are so sneaky....

 

I am even more confused about Nord Stream 1 in Germany now, and why Germany/EU won't stop natural gas imports and payments in Euros to Russia....

How is that happening? Russians are so good at getting Dollars and Euros... it's almost too easy for them

 

Russia is very silly if they are not getting paid now. They have an Army to feed. It is in the Ukraine.

 

It is almost like the USA and EU are paying for the Russian army, that is in the Ukraine right now! Well that is crazy talk. All the big weapons manufacturers of USA and Europe are supplying Ukraine with hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment to stop that. Even Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine now. It's almost like the people who make weapons just want to make money. That would be terrible!

 

This is all clearly in the name of Ukrainian Democracy.....

Edited March 2, 2022 by ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

@John Adams @Over 29 years of fanhood @All_Pro_Bills @Doc @Warcodered @BillStime @SC BIlls Fan @Tiberius

 

You guys have a lot of good thoughts.

Why are we not just cutting off Russian oil supplies like Obama did in 2014-2016?

 

Even dummy Trump followed Obama's lead and imported no Russian oil from 2016-2020 (in honesty there was a dribble in Dec 2020)

Why did Biden import 220 million plus barrels of Russian oil in 2021 after Trump imported 0 and Obama imported 0 for his last 2 years?

Seems backwards to me. Biden must be smarter than all of us.

 

Did that help fund the current war? If Russia gets 30-50% of it's government funding from oil, and we go from importing 0 barrels under Obama and even Trump, to importing 220 million barrels a year under Biden, even at the low cost of $52 a barrel, isn't that $10 billion or so US Dollars to Russia that they did not get under Obama or Trump? Maybe I am bad at math. $52 (minimum) * 220,000,000 (minimum)

 

I am sure you have Green New Deal math that will fix it and explain it all for me. Should we meet in Paris to discuss it??

 

What has been the US investment in weapons in Ukraine over the past 10 years? Certainly no one would want to profit from weapons production and death, that is not Democratic at all! We wouldn't do such a thing!

 

If the USA is taking 'tough sanctions' against Russia, but is still importing 750k - 1,000,000 million barrels of oil a day from Russia, is that really tough sanctions?

 

I guess I don't understand how buying things from someone at a profit makes them weaker. You will have to explain that to me with your fancy economics. Even Obama understood this was a bad idea, and I don't think he was good at economics.

 

CNN and MNBC, who only tell the truth, said all international payments systems like SWIFT to Russia were being shut down.

How is Russia getting paid for all of that oil and natural gas then?!?! Is Russia doing it all on good credit to the USA/NATO?

CNN and MSNBC also said Russia is invading to stop USA/NATO from encroaching on Ukraine. So confusing. Is Russia potentially fueling its own enemy? Or is it getting rich from it? So confusing. Crazy talk, darned Russians.... they are so sneaky....

 

I am even more confused about Nord Stream 1 in Germany now, and why Germany/EU won't stop natural gas imports and payments in Euros to Russia....

How is that happening? Russians are so good at getting Dollars and Euros... it's almost too easy for them

 

Russia is very silly if they are not getting paid now. They have an Army to feed. It is in the Ukraine.

 

It is almost like the USA and EU are paying for the Russian army, that is in the Ukraine right now! Well that is crazy talk. All the big weapons manufacturers of USA and Europe are supplying Ukraine with hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment to stop that. Even Germany is sending weapons to Ukraine now. It's almost like the people who make weapons just want to make money. That would be terrible!

 

This is all clearly in the name of Ukrainian Democracy.....

You want an energy crisis here? That would help Putin 

[BillStime]

13 hours ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

I'm not a registered Democrat or registered Republican.

 

We now know this is a joke.