Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Is that a no? Wow 

 

 

So you don’t believe the United States has the right to station our troops wherever we want within our own country? Keep your shirt on before this sort of mock hysteria gets a whole lot of young men killed….please. 

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So you don’t believe the United States has the right to station our troops wherever we want within our own country? Keep your shirt on before this sort of mock hysteria gets a whole lot of young men killed….please. 

So Putin is ok threatening a neighboring republic. You love that KGB pos 

[Tiberius]

“If we allow those principles to be violated with impunity, then we will open a very large Pandora’s box,” Blinken said during remarks to personnel at the U.S. Embassy. “The entire world is watching what is happening here.”

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

20 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

“If we allow those principles to be violated with impunity, then we will open a very large Pandora’s box,” Blinken said during remarks to personnel at the U.S. Embassy. “The entire world is watching what is happening here.”

Our intimidating foreign policy… i guess he’s soft because he’s half Russian… he’d did make millions exploiting his political connections though… so that’s nice good ol big government corruption 

 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Our intimidating foreign policy… i guess he’s soft because he’s half Russian… he’d did make millions exploiting his political connections though… so that’s nice good ol big government corruption 

 

Not Putin's fault? Can't you say it? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Not Putin's fault? Can't you say it? 

Putins fault that Blinkin is soft and corrupt?? Could be. I know Joe made bank off of Ukraine so I’d think he’d more forcefully protect his friends there. 
 

but hey we’re all still trying to understand why Putin didn’t just taken when he had a Russian asset in the White House 😂 

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Putins fault that Blinkin is soft and corrupt?? Could be. I know Joe made bank off of Ukraine so I’d think he’d more forcefully protect his friends there. 
 

but hey we’re all still trying to understand why Putin didn’t just taken when he had a Russian asset in the White House 😂 

So Putin isn't really bad in your eyes. Interesting. I think you represent the Right very well

[All_Pro_Bills]

 

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

So Putin isn't really bad in your eyes. Interesting. I think you represent the Right very well

  

You'd think Trump would have thrown Ukraine under the bus and into the arms of the Russians after the impeachment attempt resulting from his allegedly asking for political favors from the Kiev government.  At least that was the story according to deep state CIA operative Colonel Vindman.

 

What I'm not clear about from advocates of US intervention is exactly what type of response or action they propose to take?  The administration has taken the nuclear response and direct troop insertion response off the table.  They've declared expelling Russia from the SWIFT trade settlement system is off the table.  To date they've sent arms and "advisors" to Ukraine which signals a you're own your own if it comes down to hostilities.  And the European states have no desire to enter into any type of conflict with their biggest energy supplier.  Especially in the dead of Winter.  So what's the point of it all?  I expect that's the obvious conclusion that most thinkers at the Kremlin and the Pentagon have reached.  

 

But your entire premise here to protect and defend democracy is a little short cited.  A democracy which depends on Nazi paramilitary organizations for the core of its most aggressive and motivated fighters?  You see the regular Army is nothing to write home about.  That democracy angle seems out of alignment with progressive advocates that see imaginary Nazi's lurking behind every tree and under every bush domestically but can't seem to spot real Nazi's parading out in the open in a country they're willing to go to war in order to support "democracy".  I can see it now.  Social justice advocates on the left demanding we send Hispanic and Black US soldiers to fight side by side with Ukrainian Nazi's.  Love the irony.     

 

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

  

You'd think Trump would have thrown Ukraine under the bus and into the arms of the Russians after the impeachment attempt resulting from his allegedly asking for political favors from the Kiev government.  At least that was the story according to deep state CIA operative Colonel Vindman.

 

What I'm not clear about from advocates of US intervention is exactly what type of response or action they propose to take?  The administration has taken the nuclear response and direct troop insertion response off the table.  They've declared expelling Russia from the SWIFT trade settlement system is off the table.  To date they've sent arms and "advisors" to Ukraine which signals a you're own your own if it comes down to hostilities.  And the European states have no desire to enter into any type of conflict with their biggest energy supplier.  Especially in the dead of Winter.  So what's the point of it all?  I expect that's the obvious conclusion that most thinkers at the Kremlin and the Pentagon have reached.  

 

But your entire premise here to protect and defend democracy is a little short cited.  A democracy which depends on Nazi paramilitary organizations for the core of its most aggressive and motivated fighters?  You see the regular Army is nothing to write home about.  That democracy angle seems out of alignment with progressive advocates that see imaginary Nazi's lurking behind every tree and under every bush domestically but can't seem to spot real Nazi's parading out in the open in a country they're willing to go to war in order to support "democracy".  I can see it now.  Social justice advocates on the left demanding we send Hispanic and Black US soldiers to fight side by side with Ukrainian Nazi's.  Love the irony.     

 

So is Putin bad or not? 

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

So is Putin bad or not? 

You keep repeating that? Is Putin bad.....sure!  But...does Putin have the right to place his troops anywhere he wants inside the borders of his own country....also he sure does!  What's your suggestion? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

So Putin isn't really bad in your eyes. Interesting. I think you represent the Right very well

I’m not sure where you gathered that but it is incorrect.
 

Putin is representative of the socialist utopia end game i fear the left naively seeks… just like all the other dictators or authoritarians that rode their socialist message to the top propelled by their sheep.  This is why it’s underwhelming that our impotent administration such a joke. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Doc]

Don't bother looking for an answer from Tibs.  He's still stuck on "Russian collusion."

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

Don't bother looking for an answer from Tibs.  He's still stuck on "Russian collusion."

Well Tib's got his wish. His man Uncle Joe is in charge now. Does Tibs even know that?  He seems to be stuck in a time warp.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Well Tib's got his wish. His man Uncle Joe is in charge now. Does Tibs even know that?  He seems to be stuck in a time warp.

 

He doesn't want to talk about the disaster Joey's been.  I don't blame him.

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

He doesn't want to talk about the disaster Joey's been.  I don't blame him.

Well for someone who doesn't want to talk about it, he's certainly doing a whole lot of talking about.  So unlike you....I do blame him. Hey Tibs!  Can you please tell us what you'd like Uncle Joe to do?

[Precision]

I've said it before, the Russia/Ukraine conflict was the perfect scenario for the European NATO members to assert themselves.  

 

Militarily, it would have been easy to funnel arms to Ukraine given the close proximity of European NATO members.  Instead, we have UK planes that need to fly around German airspace to provide the Ukrainians defensive weapons.

 

Even if the EU NATO countries didn't have the stomach for that they could have provided Ukraine economic subsidies so the Ukrainians could have purchased their own weapons.  Instead, we got Nordstream 2 which will hurt the Ukraine economy.

 

The truth is that NATO is a farce.  It is a one-sided organization that allows European countries to be protected by American service members with American money. 

 

Let me clarify that I am calling out mainland European countries, God bless the United Kingdom!

[Tiberius]

Quote

 

The British government on Saturday accused Russia of organizing a plot to install a pro-Moscow government in Ukraine, as the Kremlin masses troops and materiel near the Ukrainian border in what Western officials fear is an impending military assault on the neighboring nation.

The U.K. Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office gave relatively little information about the intelligence unveiled Saturday other than to say that the Russian government was considering trying to make a Russia-leaning former member of Ukraine’s parliament, Yevhen Murayev, the country’s new leader.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/uk-accuses-russia-of-scheming-to-install-a-pro-kremlin-government-in-ukraine/2022/01/22/41c0999e-7bde-11ec-b79d-e53ef5e1fbe2_story.html

 

Well, when has Russia ever done this before? 

[Chef Jim]

Biden: If there is a full scale invasion there's gonna be hell to pay. If there is a minor incursion no soup for you!

 

Russia:  Ok we'll just install a puppet government without sending in any troops or firing a shot.

 

Biden:  Well ***** me.  Now what??

 

The Rest of the World:  Just go back to sleep Joe. 

 

 

[Tiberius]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:57 PM, Precision said:

I've said it before, the Russia/Ukraine conflict was the perfect scenario for the European NATO members to assert themselves.  

 

Militarily, it would have been easy to funnel arms to Ukraine given the close proximity of European NATO members.  Instead, we have UK planes that need to fly around German airspace to provide the Ukrainians defensive weapons.

 

Even if the EU NATO countries didn't have the stomach for that they could have provided Ukraine economic subsidies so the Ukrainians could have purchased their own weapons.  Instead, we got Nordstream 2 which will hurt the Ukraine economy.

 

The truth is that NATO is a farce.  It is a one-sided organization that allows European countries to be protected by American service members with American money. 

 

Let me clarify that I am calling out mainland European countries, God bless the United Kingdom!

Oh, our side is a farce? Sounds like a Fascist take on the issue 

[All_Pro_Bills]

52 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/uk-accuses-russia-of-scheming-to-install-a-pro-kremlin-government-in-ukraine/2022/01/22/41c0999e-7bde-11ec-b79d-e53ef5e1fbe2_story.html

 

Well, when has Russia ever done this before? 

Where have we seen this before?  Prior to the pro-western government currently in power the pro-Russian and democratically elected Yanukovych government was overthrown in a coup engineering by then under-secretary of State Victoria Nuland under the Obama administration.  Recall the Maidan protests which were pretext for the event.  His sin?  Declaring no interest in forming closer ties with NATO and Western alliances. 

Soon thereafter, was the Russian invasion and takeover of Crimea.  Of historical note is that Crimea, originally a territory of Russia, was transferred by Soviet Premier Kruschev to Ukraine in the 1950's.  Of note is that Krushev was a Ukrainian and the move was generally unpopular with the impacted populations at the time.  But what choice did they have, right?    

So now with Biden in the White House Vicky and the war-hawks are back to finish the job after the pause button on new wars and conflicts was hit for 4 years.  The problem is the circumstances have changed dramatically.  Biden has already taken the most serious U.S. options off the table.  Now the U.S. has very little leverage, the UK is irrelevant, and Europe is split on backing or resisting taking any kind of military actions and some states such as Germany see economic integration and trade with Russia as a fundamental objective.  And so goes Germany, so goes Europe. 

My assessment is this is no-win scenario.  I see no vested interest here, regardless of your insistence that Americans should fight and die for democracy in obscure and irrelevant places around the world. I hope we steer clear of getting bogged down in another useless conflict.  But our government tends to spend a lot of time and resources on useless adventures which makes a lot of defense contractors and their shareholders rich at the expense of a lot of death and destruction. 

Maybe we should discuss more about Yemen and U.S. support of non-democratic Saudi Arabia which is recklessly targeting, bombing, and killing civilian populations to its south?  Why aren't we supporting or insisting on a transition to democracy there if that's the number one driver of policy?