To Have a Good Running Back or A Not So Good Running Back That is the Question ??

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

 Most defenses boast of a light DL and undersized LBs so RBs like Henry, Chubb and Taylor are having a field day.

They all run behind very good o-lines while running backs with similar traits are averaging under 4 ypc (Barkley, Harris, Jacobs) because their o-line sucks.  If I'm a GM I build up my o-line and then hope to strike gold in day two or three in the draft.

[billybrew1]

8 hours ago, T master said:

So all we ever here is that the NFL is a passing league or that running backs are a dime a dozen or having a good running back isn't as important as it once was . Even Bills history has proved that if you can control a game by keeping a high powered offense off the field with a clock controlling running game you can defeat that high powered offense .

 

Well i have a tendency to disagree especially as the Bills are where they are & play in the conditions that they do. What would have happened in the snovertime game if there were no Shady McCoy to hand that ball to ? 

 

What have running teams done to the Bills top 5 D this year when faced with stopping them I think the Titans, Colts, Ravens & even the Bills have proved these points wrong . If Josh doesn't run with in the Bills offense and the backs don't they usually lose for the lack there of .

 

In their draft 2 years ago when they got Moss i just wasn't a fan of the pick ! Given the Bills location & being in a open stadium not to mention they really need a big bruiser of a back for the goal line and short yardage stuff i wanted a bigger say 230 lb back .

 

You mean to tell me a Jerome Bettis, AP, Christian Okoye aka Nigerian Nightmare , or others (in their prime) of that stature wouldn't be a welcome sight to the Bills offense ? I wanted the Bills to draft AJ Dillon the dude was a beast in college & is more than proved he can be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL and i for 1 would like to see just what he could bring standing behind Josh in this offense .

 

I don't believe those "NFL Experts" know quite as much as they are saying they do especially now with the new style defenses being geared to stop the pass with smaller, quicker players have a really good chance at stopping a true old style running game & we once again could see that play out this Monday night in prime time ! 

 

We have seen in some instances defenses stop a good running game and even the Bills have done it & i hope this week they put together one hell of a game plan to do just that but i do not agree that having a good running back is a lost art in todays NFL .

 

I think investing in a Najee Harris this past year could have been a really good get even though i am happy they got Roseau . Merida has been a definite breath of fresh air but I hope they at least try using Antonio Williams and hell give Wade a shot could he be any worse than what they have been putting out there ?

Balance wins Super Bowls. You have to be mentally and physically tough to win Super Bowls. Marino never won a Super Bowl. The Jim Kelly Bills lost three of four Super Bowls losing the battle on the LOS (The giants loss was just dumb luck.). Elways didn't win a Super Bowl until they built a great defense and run game.

Mahomes got his ring because the KC defense held tough and kept giving Mahomes the ball back.

 

It's a complete fallacy that the NFL has become a passing league. It never happened and probably never will.

 

The Bills tried valiantly (without spending a lot of dough like other teams) trying to get tougher along the LOS this offseason but they did not do enough. I hope the Bills get a great two-way guard this offseason, a big strong and fast RB, a second big and strong two-way TE to sub Knox and run the 12 offfense and a new DT for the D. Now we also need to upgrade CB for sure as well. Hopefully Tredavious is back and at full strength by next January.

Beane has to enter the FA scene this spring and he had better do a great job. Then we need our best draft since McBeane took over. We had Kelly with TT, AR and BS and didn't win even one freakin' Super Bowl.

Now we have The Great Josh Allen, Dion Dawkins if he can bounce back next season, Stefan Diggs. TW, some solid defensive players and we can't let all that go to waste. The object of the game is to win a Super Bowl and Josh will be at his peak next season. We have money and picks for next season and we had damn well better go for it next season.

Beane needs to admit mistakes, fix them and come up with a Super Bowl winning plan.

Yes! We need to be tougher which means we have to be able to run and stop the run. As well as being one of the best, maybe the best, passing teams. We had better hope to high heaven that Epenesa, Groot and Boogie impress the ***** out of everyone next season.

 

Go Bills!

[TH3]

14 hours ago, T master said:

So all we ever here is that the NFL is a passing league or that running backs are a dime a dozen or having a good running back isn't as important as it once was . Even Bills history has proved that if you can control a game by keeping a high powered offense off the field with a clock controlling running game you can defeat that high powered offense .

 

Well i have a tendency to disagree especially as the Bills are where they are & play in the conditions that they do. What would have happened in the snovertime game if there were no Shady McCoy to hand that ball to ? 

 

What have running teams done to the Bills top 5 D this year when faced with stopping them I think the Titans, Colts, Ravens & even the Bills have proved these points wrong . If Josh doesn't run with in the Bills offense and the backs don't they usually lose for the lack there of .

 

In their draft 2 years ago when they got Moss i just wasn't a fan of the pick ! Given the Bills location & being in a open stadium not to mention they really need a big bruiser of a back for the goal line and short yardage stuff i wanted a bigger say 230 lb back .

 

You mean to tell me a Jerome Bettis, AP, Christian Okoye aka Nigerian Nightmare , or others (in their prime) of that stature wouldn't be a welcome sight to the Bills offense ? I wanted the Bills to draft AJ Dillon the dude was a beast in college & is more than proved he can be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL and i for 1 would like to see just what he could bring standing behind Josh in this offense .

 

I don't believe those "NFL Experts" know quite as much as they are saying they do especially now with the new style defenses being geared to stop the pass with smaller, quicker players have a really good chance at stopping a true old style running game & we once again could see that play out this Monday night in prime time ! 

 

We have seen in some instances defenses stop a good running game and even the Bills have done it & i hope this week they put together one hell of a game plan to do just that but i do not agree that having a good running back is a lost art in todays NFL .

 

I think investing in a Najee Harris this past year could have been a really good get even though i am happy they got Roseau . Merida has been a definite breath of fresh air but I hope they at least try using Antonio Williams and hell give Wade a shot could he be any worse than what they have been putting out there ?

Motor 4.5 yards per carry….AJ Dillon 4.24…..so what are you talking about?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Well you probably want to start with a running back that is faster than 4.65.

 

We’ve seen Tony Pollard have more juice than Ezekiel Elliott all season.

 

The Bills has the right idea in my mind. Ditching McCoy and drafting two younger replacements. 
 

Singletary and Miss have played to their Scouting Reports exactly, they play like 4.65 - 4.70. They’re too slow.

 

The narrative on WGR is why bother even running the ball at all? Josh Allen can and should do it all.

 

But it does make the team one dimensional. 

 

 

[NewEra]

Great OL >>>>> Great RB 

 

great OL + great RB = a huge problem for several nfl defenses…..but it’ll take the perfect storm of opponents to win the SB imo.

 

like @Thurman#1 said.  Is it worth the compromises at other positions?  The high draft picks and salary cap hits will prevent you from allocating resources at other poisons.  Can you find diamonds in the rough in the later rounds?  Can you find some udfa or bargain free agents that can step in and play?  It’s possible to win with great RBs, but the GM will likely have to hit on several other cheap alternatives at other positions. 

[transient]

24 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Great OL >>>>> Great RB 

 

great OL + great RB = a huge problem for several nfl defenses…..but it’ll take the perfect storm of opponents to win the SB imo.

 

like @Thurman#1 said.  Is it worth the compromises at other positions?  The high draft picks and salary cap hits will prevent you from allocating resources at other poisons.  Can you find diamonds in the rough in the later rounds?  Can you find some udfa or bargain free agents that can step in and play?  It’s possible to win with great RBs, but the GM will likely have to hit on several other cheap alternatives at other positions. 

IMO, given the Bills’ window of opportunity, with the timeline of development at various positions I’d rather see them fill the OL with solid players through FA and draft a more physically gifted RB in round 2-3 next season. When that RB’s rookie deal expires, on to the next. Personally, I think it’s fine to draft one, I just wouldn’t commit serious money to one long term. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

Good running back, when your QB is your best RB, the OC starts relying on QB runs and the hits will eventually take their toll.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, TH3 said:

Motor 4.5 yards per carry….AJ Dillon 4.24…..so what are you talking about?

 

 

He also said it was never a passing league. So what can you expect?

 

It is absolutely a passing league, but as usual it's cyclical and right now running is getting a bit of an awakening at least. Still a passing league, but as Ds more and more use nickel and dime and thus the D gets faster but lighter we're seeing run frequency increase. It won't get anywhere near 50%, but expect offenses to do their best to punish the light Ds that have mostly taken over.

 

What we need is an improvement on the OL. I have little doubt we'll see Beane working on that during the offseason.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Sugar High JA17]

Get Isaiah Spiller RB Texas A&M in the 2022 Draft

Ill wear my old Spiller jersey too... Win/Win

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, transient said:

IMO, given the Bills’ window of opportunity, with the timeline of development at various positions I’d rather see them fill the OL with solid players through FA and draft a more physically gifted RB in round 2-3 next season. When that RB’s rookie deal expires, on to the next. Personally, I think it’s fine to draft one, I just wouldn’t commit serious money to one long term. 

That can work.  It’s all about drafting and signing the right players.  
 

2nd rd picks Ford, epenesa and Basham have yet to work out. Ford is toast, but epenesa and Basham have a chance…..but up til now, we’ve gotten close to zilch from them.  Moss and motor are that 2nd 3rd rd rb that you speak of…..but it seems as though we missed on Moss.  Motor is decent, but do we trust him catching the ball?  Do we trust him to hold onto the ball?  😳.  Seems as if we have a bookend for the next 3 years in Spencer brown.  How does he develop?  If he’s another dawkins, well, that’s ok…..but if he can become a true stud, that’ll make a huge difference. 

 

rousseau and Ed have been solid and seem to be keepers, but can they take the next step and become true every down, impact players?  Is ed going to be worth extending and paying 15M+ a year?  This stretch run should tell us a lot imo.  
 

Allocating salary cap to free agent OL can work….if you spend money on the right players.  Making Morse the highest paid center hasn’t blown up in our face, but he’s just been ok.  Paying Williams the minimum last season was a great move…..but extending him seems to have been a mistake (we got lucky that Brown came a long so quickly, especially after sitting out last season).  Feliciano is still a backup level player, at least we didn’t break the bank to keep him.  
 

I really hope that forming a dominant OL is on the agenda for the FO.  We need a line that can be effective pass blocking as well as run blocking.  Keeping josh healthy and protected + opening holes in the run game is the key to our future success imo.  

 

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

17 hours ago, T master said:

So all we ever here is that the NFL is a passing league or that running backs are a dime a dozen or having a good running back isn't as important as it once was . Even Bills history has proved that if you can control a game by keeping a high powered offense off the field with a clock controlling running game you can defeat that high powered offense .

 

Well i have a tendency to disagree especially as the Bills are where they are & play in the conditions that they do. What would have happened in the snovertime game if there were no Shady McCoy to hand that ball to ? 

 

What have running teams done to the Bills top 5 D this year when faced with stopping them I think the Titans, Colts, Ravens & even the Bills have proved these points wrong . If Josh doesn't run with in the Bills offense and the backs don't they usually lose for the lack there of .

 

In their draft 2 years ago when they got Moss i just wasn't a fan of the pick ! Given the Bills location & being in a open stadium not to mention they really need a big bruiser of a back for the goal line and short yardage stuff i wanted a bigger say 230 lb back .

 

You mean to tell me a Jerome Bettis, AP, Christian Okoye aka Nigerian Nightmare , or others (in their prime) of that stature wouldn't be a welcome sight to the Bills offense ? I wanted the Bills to draft AJ Dillon the dude was a beast in college & is more than proved he can be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL and i for 1 would like to see just what he could bring standing behind Josh in this offense .

 

I don't believe those "NFL Experts" know quite as much as they are saying they do especially now with the new style defenses being geared to stop the pass with smaller, quicker players have a really good chance at stopping a true old style running game & we once again could see that play out this Monday night in prime time ! 

 

We have seen in some instances defenses stop a good running game and even the Bills have done it & i hope this week they put together one hell of a game plan to do just that but i do not agree that having a good running back is a lost art in todays NFL .

 

I think investing in a Najee Harris this past year could have been a really good get even though i am happy they got Roseau . Merida has been a definite breath of fresh air but I hope they at least try using Antonio Williams and hell give Wade a shot could he be any worse than what they have been putting out there ?

Typing all of that just to end it with "Give Wade a shot" is really the best snapshot of the type of poster we see on this board these days.

[Nextmanup]

No one is asking whether or not we should have a good RB and a strong running game, other than fans who are trapped in the past.

 

Have a look at the best rushing teams in the league this year...look at their per game averages...

 

It's not 1985 anymore.

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Typing all of that just to end it with "Give Wade a shot" is really the best snapshot of the type of poster we see on this board these days.

T Master has been gracing us with his bizarre stream of consciousness for YEARS dude. Get a clue.

Edited December 5, 2021 by FireChans

[Buffalo Junction]

56 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 Seems as if we have a bookend for the next 3 years in Spencer brown.  How does he develop?  If he’s another dawkins, well, that’s ok…..but if he can become a true stud, that’ll make a huge difference. 
 

Allocating salary cap to free agent OL can work….if you spend money on the right players.  Making Morse the highest paid center hasn’t blown up in our face, but he’s just been ok.  Paying Williams the minimum last season was a great move…..but extending him seems to have been a mistake (we got lucky that Brown came a long so quickly, especially after sitting out last season).  Feliciano is still a backup level player, at least we didn’t break the bank to keep him.  
 

I really hope that forming a dominant OL is on the agenda for the FO.  We need a line that can be effective pass blocking as well as run blocking.  Keeping josh healthy and protected + opening holes in the run game is the key to our future success imo.  

 

 

 

When it comes to OL the Morse and Williams contracts were the right moves. We needed a solid veteran center to pair with a rookie QB. Providing that recognition and experience as a resource for Allen was important. As Allen’s pre snap recognition skills improve Morse’s value to the team decreases. Admittedly though, it can be difficult to diagnose center play when the guard play is awful. Ford whiffing on blocks and failing to pick up stunts has made everyone around him look worse than they are. 
 

The Williams extension might look like a whiff since he hasn’t panned out at RT this year. However, he’s been solid at guard, and bumping him inside has helped Morse. Most notably the communication coupled with the ability to execute combination blocks and passing off stunting DL has been a night and day improvement over Ford, Mongo, etc. Add Brown into that equation and the right side of the line looks solid. Is this team overpaying Williams to play RG? Maybe, but $8 mil/year isn’t outrageous for a starting guard who can play tackle in a pinch, especially when that player has shown the ability to stonewall top pass rushers on occasion.  
 

That last guard spot needs serious improvement. Getting that spot solidified would improve the offense exponentially. Particularly if they can get a player with attitude and talent. Most of us enjoy the edge that Feliciano brings to the table, but he doesn’t have the talent to back it up. Assuming that S Brown pans out at RT and Dawkins rebounds next year (sans Covid) inserting a beast at the LG spot could completely change the nature and effectiveness of the OL. Finding that player though is different matter. 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

When it comes to OL the Morse and Williams contracts were the right moves. We needed a solid veteran center to pair with a rookie QB. Providing that recognition and experience as a resource for Allen was important. As Allen’s pre snap recognition skills improve Morse’s value to the team decreases. Admittedly though, it can be difficult to diagnose center play when the guard play is awful. Ford whiffing on blocks and failing to pick up stunts has made everyone around him look worse than they are. 
 

The Williams extension might look like a whiff since he hasn’t panned out at RT this year. However, he’s been solid at guard, and bumping him inside has helped Morse. Most notably the communication coupled with the ability to execute combination blocks and passing off stunting DL has been a night and day improvement over Ford, Mongo, etc. Add Brown into that equation and the right side of the line looks solid. Is this team overpaying Williams to play RG? Maybe, but $8 mil/year isn’t outrageous for a starting guard who can play tackle in a pinch, especially when that player has shown the ability to stonewall top pass rushers on occasion.  
 

That last guard spot needs serious improvement. Getting that spot solidified would improve the offense exponentially. Particularly if they can get a player with attitude and talent. Most of us enjoy the edge that Feliciano brings to the table, but he doesn’t have the talent to back it up. Assuming that S Brown pans out at RT and Dawkins rebounds next year (sans Covid) inserting a beast at the LG spot could completely change the nature and effectiveness of the OL. Finding that player though is different matter. 

Agreed all all fronts. Good post.  
 

I liked the Morse signing and resigning of Williams last year.  I just don’t think they’ve lived up to their contract.  I see morse as an average center.  Williams has been a turnstile @ RT but, luckily for him (and us), browns emergence has allowed him to recoup some of his value.  I think Feliciano stinks most of the time.  
 

going forward, we need a RG, LG and a C.  We don’t have any young guards and if we keep Williams @ RG next year, next year will likely be his last with us imo.  I see 2 current members of our OL that have a chance to be starters in 2023, dawkins and brown.  Maybe Doyle will be our swing tackle or maybe emerges as a capable starter that allows us to move dion inside if he doesn’t come back to form. 
 

Going forward, I just don’t see any of our IOL to be answers for more than a season or 2.  
 

 

[billieve420]

I prefer a good o-line over good RB any day. Focus on the o-line in the offseason. Josh holds the ball longer than average so having guys up front who can give as much time as possible is important.

[Buffalo Junction]

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Agreed all all fronts. Good post.  
 

I liked the Morse signing and resigning of Williams last year.  I just don’t think they’ve lived up to their contract.  I see morse as an average center.  Williams has been a turnstile @ RT but, luckily for him (and us), browns emergence has allowed him to recoup some of his value.  I think Feliciano stinks most of the time.  
 

going forward, we need a RG, LG and a C.  We don’t have any young guards and if we keep Williams @ RG next year, next year will likely be his last with us imo.  I see 2 current members of our OL that have a chance to be starters in 2023, dawkins and brown.  Maybe Doyle will be our swing tackle or maybe emerges as a capable starter that allows us to move dion inside if he doesn’t come back to form. 
 

Going forward, I just don’t see any of our IOL to be answers for more than a season or 2.  
 

 

I see a slightly longer timeframe (2-3 years), but agree that these guys need to be phased out with younger and/ more dynamic talent. Personally, I’ve been concerned with the regression and lack of development in the trenches. I can’t speak from authority about Bobby Johnson, but it certainly appears that something is off with the development pipeline … whether that’s talent or coaching 🤷‍♂️. 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I see a slightly longer timeframe (2-3 years), but agree that these guys need to be phased out with younger and/ more dynamic talent. Personally, I’ve been concerned with the regression and lack of development in the trenches. I can’t speak from authority about Bobby Johnson, but it certainly appears that something is off with the development pipeline … whether that’s talent or coaching 🤷‍♂️. 

You think Morse Williams and Feliciano will be our IOL for the next 2-3 years?  If that’s the case, either Beane will have failed or these guys will have improved.  
 

agree completely with Johnson.  The remaining games this year will determine his fate imo. If the OL is a problem for the remainder of the season, he should be replaced.  

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You think Morse Williams and Feliciano will be our IOL for the next 2-3 years?  If that’s the case, either Beane will have failed or these guys will have improved.  
 

agree completely with Johnson.  The remaining games this year will determine his fate imo. If the OL is a problem for the remainder of the season, he should be replaced.  

Not Mongo. He needs to be replaced asap as a starter, and I’d consider it a giant failure by Beane if he’s starting next year. Morse and Williams I can see staying around for 2-3 years while they groom replacements, particularly if they tack on a year or two at a more team friendly rate. IIRC Morse already took a pay cut. I don’t view either of those two as a liability, so I think the timetable can be extended if they find a big improvement at LG. That said, I hope they double dip on the interior in the draft and possibly supplement that with a starting left guard in FA. 
 

As for Johnson… He needs to improve or adding talent may not matter. Agree that he’s likely coaching for his job right now. There are definitely other variables at play, but he has to own some of the responsibility for who they’ve kept on the roster. 

[jdonley1180]

wyatt teller...