Not sure if It’s coaching , talent , effort, Do youself a favor;

[DrPJax]

     Disclaimer,   I wanted to pass on some great ideas and explanation about that debacle we all were traumatized with against the Colts.  I have no financial or other interest in a podcast on YouTube called OFF TACKLE , WITH JOHN FINA and Joe Miller as the host.   Fina was a starting tackle Ada rookie on the SB 27 team in Pasadena and played many years for the Bills and teamed with Joe Miller to do a podcast that is on Tuesdays after the prior weeks game. It is tremendous insight from a lineman who played for our Bills on Super bowl teams.  I watch several podcasts from.amateurs and from pro broadcasters , team beat reporters , national spokespersons etc , and I can honestly say there are so many confusing and contradictory analytic ideas that it’s hard to really know what to believe.  
 

Well, do yourself a favor , take an hour of your time to look on YouTube for Finas OFF TACKLE podcast , and you will be entertained with humor , actual X’s and O’s Analysis , and FRANK , HONEST EVALUATION that is eye opening and information that comes from a pro o lineman who has been in meeting rooms after losses like this. He ends with some hope and actual ideas to solve issues , not just complaining for no reason or without offering constructive criticisms.    At the same time , he offered eye opening frank analysis of the issues on both sides of the ball that avoids rose colored glass , fanboy analysis.  It is somewhat depressing because the issues are real and not solved easily , but if they aren’t , any realistic dreams of playoff hopes is living in a fantasy.  He spares no names , no positions , and he does it to not be mean spirited , but as a Bills fan / alumni, who wants the best for the team.  You are left with the impression of wishing Fina was on our o line staff ( maybe soME day he will be but currently has family commitments such as his son being a center, I believe,at UCLA. ). 
 

Briefly , the biggest and most critical analysis was about Vernon Butler !  Probably not a surprise to many on here.  Yet Fina called him out for THR CARDINAL SIN OF LACK OF EFFORT ON MULTIPLE PLAYS.!  He was shocked seeing how little effort Oliver played with. MuLTIPLE. plays he as pushed 5 or more yards behind the LOS. HE even saw plays with the o line driving Oliver backward holding onto the BACK OF HIS JERSEY as he was being pushed away from the line.  And Fina made no bones about  the fact that Oliver’s bad play directly resulted,in long Taylor runs several times.  You need to hear John explain it as only John can. It was an embarrassment and he said either Oliver has frankly quit or the coaching technique is so bad that changes need to be made.  It takes a lot for a player to call out another player , but Fina didn’t hesitate.  The honesty is refreshing.   After listening, Oliver should be gone and never touch the field,for the bills agsin.  And yes , just missing Edmunds and Starr could have made a big enougn difference to have slowed Taylor.  The colts exploited that weakness and just missing these two starters probably did add to the blow out.  Please , go listen for yourself.  If we don’t fix this Oliver issue and get healthy, we may well see the Saints do the same, as Fina pointed out you can bet they are tweaking their game plan after watching That colts game!  Honestly , if the coaches can’t light t a fire or teach better technique , we sadly are in big trouble.  
 

Moving on to Johns area of expertise , it was another great listen.  He feels Ford is basically a liability and he does not see a good future or him. The one guy he supports is Morse.  Dawkins was ok this past game.   Fina sees a lot of bad technique by players and it seems like it comes down to coaching ( Johnson ) , and either poor running game scheme development or poor coaching ( mentions especially Daboll) that involves mistakes by guys like  moss and Allen and that is either on them or poor scheme and coaching by Daboll!      The one area Fina really tackled was the poor runs , mostly by Moss.  Moss hesitates and makes several mistakes including vision and not even going where the zone run is designed to go.  Easy to say Fina is not a  fan of moss! He can explain it best, but just in one example he showed how moss was lost , hesitated and ran into the back of the o line; for that type of run to be successful, it’s a speed play were you have to run to the edge as fast as possible and you can’t pick or choose a hole.  The holes were there , esp on One play where Sweeney  and knox opened a hole and moss was going to the wrong side!   Holes were there for 7-15 yards according to Fina , but moss was lost.  Interestingly he also criticized Allen  whose technique was either poorly taught or taught incorrectly.  His shoulders were not  square during the handoff and blocked mosses view of the intended hole. If it was not taught , then Daboll is not paying arrention to detail.  John did not mince words.  This performance AND coaching is not acceptable and if it’s not corrected , we can expect more results like the colts game.  
 

The positive is it is possible to fix most of these coaching issues by chewing some ass!  The negative is we have some positions thin or devoid of talent !  I promise it’s worth an hour.   Fina has unique talent and has a future as a coach or a a broadcaster!  Great humor as the time flies by, and I think you will feel like you gained insight from a true NFL insider that is rare to come by!!   I am bad with links ,  cuz I’m an old dude , please forgive me.  I promise it’s some of the best analysis you will hear and actually enjoy And it’s by a bright, funny, humorous great family and Bills guy!    Look on YouTube , OFF TACKLE WITH JOHN FINA and Joe Miller as the host.  I know I have a better idea as to what’s going on regarding the horrific play we were asked to endure.   Best wishes, Happy Thanksgiving. To my fellow Bills fans! ( ps, sorry for many original typos!  Had recent surgery involving my cervical cord as 4 discs collapsed unexpectedly and I am left with probable permanent loss of feeling in my hands and arms as the discs trapped and damaged my mid and lower cervical spinal cord.  I had a 3 level anterior spinal fusion which replaced 3 discs ( NEURO wanted to do 4 levels  but I was in surgery 5 hours and they stopped early because of neck/ chest wall edema and bleeding). It involved putting cages in my neck filled with cadaver bone to replace my own neck cervical discs, stabilized  by plates and screws.!  Lol.  Honestly it’s been pretty uncomfortable and the needed pain meds have made me loopy at times so I apologize for so many typos.  Thanks to hapless for proof reading !  Hope you still take a chance to catch Fina who is a real talent. The pain meds kicked in and I fell asleep prior to proof reading.  It’s worth the laughs alone plus you will hear how a pro feared those lights on reviews in the film sessions! 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by DrPJax

[GunnerBill]

It is a recurring thing with Ed sadly. His inconsistency largely comes from the fact that he doesn't always play with the same motor. Even within a game he can go from a disruptive force to a non-factor and at times I attribute that to inconsistent effort. 

[BuffaloBillies]

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

37 minutes ago, DrPJax said:

     Disclaimer,   I wanted to pass on some great ideas and explanation about that debacle we all were traumatized with against the Colts.  I have no financial or other interest in a podcast on YouTube called OFF TACKLE , WITH JOHN FINA and Joe Miller as the host.   Fina was a starting tackle Ada rookie on the SB 27 team in Pasadena and played many years for the Bills with Joe Miller to do a podcast that is on Tuesdays after the prior weeks game. It is tremendous insight from a lineman who played for our Bills on Super bowl teams.  I watch several podcasts from.amateurs and from pro broadcasters , team beat reporters , national spokespersons etc , and I can honestly say there are so many confusing and contradictory analytic ideas that it’s hard to really know what to believe.  
 

Well, do yourself a favor , take an hour of your time to look on YouTube for Finas OFF TACKLE podcast , and you will be entertained with humor , actual X’s and O’s Analysis , and FRANK , HONEST EVALUATION that is eye opening and information that comes from a pro o lineman who has been in meeting rooms after losses like this. He ends with some hope and actual ideas to solve issues , not just complaining for no reason or without offering constructive criticisms.    At the same time , he offered eye opening frank analysis of the issues on both sides of the ball that avoids rose glass , fanboy analysis.  It is somewhat depressing because the issues are real and not solved easily , but if they aren’t , any realistic hope of playoff hopes is living in a fantasy.  He spares no names , no positions , and he does it to not be mean spirited , but as a Bills fan / alumni, who wants the best for the team.  You are left with the impression of wishing Fina was on our o line staff ( maybe soME day he will be but currently has family commitments such as his son being a center I believe at UCLA. ). 
 

Briefly , the biggest and most critical analysis was about Bernon Butler !  Probably not a surprise to many on here.  Yet Fina called him out for THR CARDINAL SIN OF LACK OF EFFORT ON MULTIPLE PLAYS.!  He was shocked seeing how little effort Oliver played with. MuLTIPLE.  plays he as pushed 5 or more yards behind the LOS. HE even saw plays with the o line driving Oliver backward holding onto the BACK OF HIS JERSEY as he was being pushed away from the line.  And Fina made no bones abi8t the fact that Oliver’s bad play directly resulted,in long Taylor runs several times.  You need to hear John explain it as only John can. It was embarrassment and he said either Oliver has frankly quit or the coaching technique is so bad that changes need to be made.  It takes a lot for a player to call out another player , but Fina didn’t hesitate.  The honestly is refreshing.   After listening, Oliver should be gone and never touch the field,for the bills agsin.  And yes , just missing Edmunds and Starr could have made a big enougn difference to have slowed Taglor.  The colts exploited that weakness and just missing thise two starters probably did add to the blow out.  Please , go listen for yourself.  If we don’t fix this Oliver issue and get healthy, we may well see the Saints do the same as Fina pointed out you can bet they are tweaking their game plan after watching That colts game!  Honestly , if the coaches cant light t a fire or teach better technique , we sadly are in big trouble.  
 

Moving on to Johns area of expertise , it was another great listen.  He feels Ford is basically a liability and he does not see a good future or him. The one guy he supports is Morse.  Dawkins was ok this past game.   Fina sees a lot of bad technique by players and it seems like it comes down to coaching ( Johnson ) , and either poor running game scheme development or poor coaching ( mentions Daboll) that involves mistake by guys like  moss and Allen and that is either on them or poor scheme and coaching by Daboll!      The one area Fina really tackled was the poor runs , mostly by Moss.  Moss hesitates and makes several mistakes including vision and not even going where the zone run is designed to go.  Easy to say Fina is not a  fan of moss! He can explain it best, but just in one example he showed how moss was lost , hesitated and  for that type of run to be successful, it’s a speed play were you have to run to the edge as fast as possible and you can’t pick or choose a hole.  The holes were there , esp on One play where Sweeney  and knox opened a hole and moss was going to the wrong side!   Holes were there for 7-15 yards according to Fina , but moss was lost.  Interestingly he also criticized Allen  whose technique was either not taught or taught incorrectly.  His shoulders were not  square during the handoff and blocked mosses view of the intended hole. If it was not taught , then Daboll is not paying arrention to detail.  John did not mince words.  This performance AND coaching is not acceptable and if it’s not corrected , we can expect more like the colts game.  
 

The positive is it is possible to fix most of this coaching by chewing some ass!  The negative is we have some positions thin or devoid of talent !  I promise it’s worth an hour.   Fina has unique talent and has a future as a coach or a a broadcaster!  Great humor as the time flies by and I think you will feel like yiu gained insight from a tie insider that is rare to come by !  I am bad with links ,  cuz I’m an old dude , please forgive me.  I promise it’s some of the best analysis you will hear and actually enjoy

and has credibility.  !     Again , look on YouTube , OFF TACKLE WITH JOHN FINA and Joe Miller as the host.  I know I have a better idea as to what’s going on regarding the horrific play we were subjected too!  Best wishes, Happy Thanksgiving. To my fellow Bills fans! 

thanks. I am always looking for more Bills podcasts, and will have to check this out. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

It is a recurring thing with Ed sadly. His inconsistency largely comes from the fact that he doesn't always play with the same motor. Even within a game he can go from a disruptive force to a non-factor and at times I attribute that to inconsistent effort. 

i have to go back And watch. But there was one play where Oliver shot through the middle to blow up the play. Taylor juked by him, and he was gone for 40 yards. It was his long run of the day. 
 

i was sort of curious about that play— whether Oliver made an almost great penetrating play, but just got juked. Or whether he (and other linemen) just weren’t being very disciplined in their gap control on Sunday. 

[bmur66]

I just watched it. Very good. Fina is quite a ball buster.

[Sugar High JA17]

Dabol cannot seem to assess the game and make effective adjustments.   

He sticks with whatever his plan was, no matter how badly it isn't working.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, DrPJax said:

Briefly , the biggest and most critical analysis was about Bernon Butler !  Probably not a surprise to many on here.  Yet Fina called him out for THR CARDINAL SIN OF LACK OF EFFORT ON MULTIPLE PLAYS.!  He was shocked seeing how little effort Oliver played with. MuLTIPLE.  plays he as pushed 5 or more yards behind the LOS. HE even saw plays with the o line driving Oliver backward holding onto the BACK OF HIS JERSEY as he was being pushed away from the line.  And Fina made no bones abi8t the fact that Oliver’s bad play directly resulted,in long Taylor runs several times.  You need to hear John explain it as only John can. It was embarrassment and he said either Oliver has frankly quit or the coaching technique is so bad that changes need to be made.  It takes a lot for a player to call out another player , but Fina didn’t hesitate.  The honestly is refreshing.   After listening, Oliver should be gone and never touch the field,for the bills agsin.  And yes , just missing Edmunds and Starr could have made a big enougn difference to have slowed Taglor.  The colts exploited that weakness and just missing thise two starters probably did add to the blow out.  Please , go listen for yourself.  If we don’t fix this Oliver issue and get healthy, we may well see the Saints do the same as Fina pointed out you can bet they are tweaking their game plan after watching That colts game!  Honestly , if the coaches cant light t a fire or teach better technique , we sadly are in big trouble.

 

I'm confused here.

 

You lead off your paragraph saying "the biggest and most critical analysis was about Bernon(sic) Butler"

Then the rest of your paragraph is about Ed Oliver.

 

Who are you talking about - Vernon Butler (lead sentence) or Ed Oliver?

 

Please clarify.

[78thealltimegreat]

Love Johns podcast he’s not scared to call people out either 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

It is a recurring thing with Ed sadly. His inconsistency largely comes from the fact that he doesn't always play with the same motor. Even within a game he can go from a disruptive force to a non-factor and at times I attribute that to inconsistent effort. 

Gunner, have you seen the Athletic article today about the Bills? I believe there is forum thread about it, curious as an analyst, who watches a lot of film what you thought? It's all numbers based, and curious if it matches what you see? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[Mike in Horseheads]

I thought Oliver has been playing his best football the last month or so. I get so confused.

[Jerome007]

49 minutes ago, Sugar High JA17 said:

Dabol cannot seem to assess the game and make effective adjustments.   

He sticks with whatever his plan was, no matter how badly it isn't working.   

It seems that way to me too. He can make GREAT gameplans at times, but shows little ability to adjust during games.

 

Watching the Bucs on MNF yesterday, so many sweeps, short passes, quick outs, then a big play, and so on. Even the obvious run plays they could have 3 backs with Brady, so defenses don't even know which to tackle. Not one thing works so magically for them, but it's the constant guessing by the defense. The Bills O have the tools, and all this protects the OL, which is a weak point yes, but they are asked to do too much IMO. Allen keeps runing for his life this year. Last yeat he had time to throw. Why did that fall off I have no clue but gameplan for it!

 

The Bills D still can get pushed around by strong running teams, that's roster, not schemes. Recall on Sunday it was the only time the Bills were behind at half time this year! Hence why we didn't see that many run heavy offense against them. What about playing FIVE defensive linemen at times? Free Milano and Klein to make the tackle. And they have so many DLs, it can be done, once in a while.

[GoBills808]

39 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I thought Oliver has been playing his best football the last month or so. I get so confused.

He has been. This is not a low-effort play:

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

35 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I thought Oliver has been playing his best football the last month or so. I get so confused.

 

Let me clear it up for you. After a loss any articles written that rip the bills or specific players are correct.   If they say a certain thing wasn't the issue, then they are clueless.  If we win it's the opposite.

 

Having said that, Vernon Butler does seem to be a recurring message across multiple media outlets that re-watched the video.  Fina is a little rough though to state lack of effort as opposed could be just lack of talent.  Indy's line is one of the biggest and strongest. 

 

Agree, Oliver has been praised most of the season for good play.   From what I read about Oliver in this game sounded like they used some of his aggressiveness against him, they'd let him penetrate only to then go behind him.  Was that was he was supposed to be doing and someone else then suppose to fill in or more mental mistakes.  He's kind of been doing that all season so maybe that is what he's being told to do??

 

As for Ford, most articles I've read all said Ford actually played pretty well minus the false start and some I read said it could have been called on Williams instead as they both jumped.

 

[TNBills]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

It is a recurring thing with Ed sadly. His inconsistency largely comes from the fact that he doesn't always play with the same motor. Even within a game he can go from a disruptive force to a non-factor and at times I attribute that to inconsistent effort. 

The OP had it wrong as in the video they talk about Oliver having tons of effort all the time and praising him. They talk about Butler having lack of effort and even the plays he writes about being pushed back and having the Oline lift him up by the back of the pads is Butler. 

[goldenboy81]

51 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I thought Oliver has been playing his best football the last month or so. I get so confused.

He's the only player on the dline that i have seen blast through this season. He actually looks like the one of the few players that has improved this season

[RiotAct]

54 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I thought Oliver has been playing his best football the last month or so. I get so confused.

only after a win.

[fan_in_tx]

22 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Let me clear it up for you. After a loss any articles written that rip the bills or specific players are correct.   If they say a certain thing wasn't the issue, then they are clueless.  If we win it's the opposite.

 

Having said that, Vernon Butler does seem to be a recurring message across multiple media outlets that re-watched the video.  Fina is a little rough though to state lack of effort as opposed could be just lack of talent.  Indy's line is one of the biggest and strongest. 

 

Agree, Oliver has been praised most of the season for good play.   From what I read about Oliver in this game sounded like they used some of his aggressiveness against him, they'd let him penetrate only to then go behind him.  Was that was he was supposed to be doing and someone else then suppose to fill in or more mental mistakes.  He's kind of been doing that all season so maybe that is what he's being told to do??

 

As for Ford, most articles I've read all said Ford actually played pretty well minus the false start and some I read said it could have been called on Williams instead as they both jumped.

 

Looks like it had that opportunity here for Taylor to cutback, although it appears Poyer is coming to fill the hole. If he just ran upfield does he get there in time to blow up the play?

[bmur66]

19 minutes ago, Calidiehard said:

The OP had it wrong as in the video they talk about Oliver having tons of effort all the time and praising him. They talk about Butler having lack of effort and even the plays he writes about being pushed back and having the Oline lift him up by the back of the pads is Butler. 

I thought I missed something because I did not hear that either. I do recall seeing him celebrate a sack (called back) when down 17 points which I didn't care for and then getting juked for a big gain when he was in the backfield and could have made a big play.

Edited November 23, 2021 by bmur66

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

So I listed to this Fina podcast, and— sorry— but it was dumb. Much prefer the cover 1 content, with actually sound analysis.