Who is the Bills Joc Pederson?

[BuffaninSarasota]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Of course the Colts would disagree.  But on the first drive, the Colts didn't commit two back to back pre-snap penalties that put the Bills into a 3-and-18 hole, then throw an interception.  The Bills did that.

 

On the drive after the Bills went right down the field and scored a TD, the Colts didn't commit a stupid "Roughing the Passer" penalty and a stupid DPI penalty that took it from 3rd and 8 at the Colts 27 to first down at the the Colts 42.  The Bills did that, and if the rest of the drive is the same that's the difference between 3 pts and a punt.

 

Josh Allen threw catchable balls that his receivers failed to haul in.  It wasn't that they were super well defended; our guys just didn't hang on.  The Bills did that.

 

Isaiah McKenzie had an untouched fumble on a kickoff return, caused by the ground.  The Colts didn't do that.  The Bills did that.

 

So yes, the Colts played well and deserved to win.  But the Bills beat themselves in all 3 phases, with dumb penalties, drops, and turnovers.  If the Bills hadn't beaten themselves, they might have won; they might still have lost, but it would have been a close competitive game.  They wouldn't have shat the bed in a rout.

 

And yes, the Colts would disagree, but it's not "cliche' to say that the Bills are beating themselves; it's true, critical to understanding what's going on and fixing it.  The Bills don't need to wear pearls or have Joc Pederson playing music in the locker room or yelling at people; they need to get back to playing fundamentally sound, disciplined, football.

 

 

The Bills self-inflicted mistakes are no doubt a contributing factor. You've given very good examples. The point I was trying to make is that I think it's disingenuous for someone to say "the Bills are beating themselves" as the only reason they are losing. They got their a**es handed to them Sunday.  

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

This is typical after-a-loss nonsense.

 

One team has a guy like that and the internet thinks it sounds good and so every team needs the same thing. It's exactly the same thing as calls for screaming and complaints about being soft and whining about a lack of aggression and whinging about not having a Ray Lewis or whatever other player comes to mind, or needing bickering like the bickering Bills.

 

It sounds like it makes sense, but it doesn't.

 

Plenty of great teams don't have guys like that. And plenty do. Every great team has leadership. But great leadership comes in a million different flavors. Some loud, some quiet. Some by example. 

 

The problem with the Bills isn't a lack of screaming or getting in people's faces. It's getting Edmunds and Lotulelei and Feliciano and Spencer Brown healthy again. It's adapting to the new defensive tactics that the whole league is now using on Mahomes and Allen and those like them. It's Allen learning to take the high-percentage shorter pass over the low-percentage longer ball a lot of the time until it forces teams to start defending tougher on the short game. It's cutting down the penalties. 

 

It's adjustments, playing smarter, getting healthy, better coaching and better execution, just as it usually is. And in the long run, adjusting the schemes and getting guys who better fit the new schemes and needs.

 

The awesome thing about these dumb ideas is that they can be put into a sentence or two and it sounds all macho. When the actual solution is usually a ton of details and small changes and adaptations and improvements, and it doesn't sound particularly macho.

 

 

Where did he say that every great team has to have a joc?  It’s a cool story regarding Joc.  He’s just starting a discussion to see if it may apply here. After all, this is a message board right?  But this is what you do.  Tell people that they’re wrong and call people dumb……while at the same time, telling everyone that you know it all. No wonder you alway go at it with @BADOLBILZ.  

The fact is, you’re not in the locker room.  You know just as much as everyone else about the ongoings of the locker room and what may be having a negative or positive effect on the team.  We have no clue.  We only know what we see on the field and what is told by the media.  So do you.  he’s trying to have a discussion about our players and what they bring to the locker room.  But that’s “dumb”.  
 

I agree that injuries are a big reason for our collapse.  Injuries are often a reason for a teams collapse.  It’s the nfl.  Injuries happen.  Teams that plan accordingly often deal with these injuries better than others.  I agree that we need to adapt to what the defenses are throwing at us.  It’s a big deal. Those are two very big reasons for our recent failures.  But there is more to it than that.  It’s how this team was built and the mistakes that were made.  Keeping butler, mistake.  Paying Williams, mistake.  paying Feliciano, mistake.  Not adding one roster worthy IOL the entire offseason (minus Feliciano), mistake.  Trading Lee smith and replacing him with a guy that can’t block and can’t beat out Sweeney, mistake.  Only adding Breida @Rb.  Drafting boogie Basham over creed Humphrey.  Drafting Doyle or the 6th rd picks over Tre Smith.  Not adding another 1T in case star got hurt/got covid.  There are plenty of reasons why we’re where we are.  

 

…….it was such a big deal in the AFCCG that many of us saw that we were incredibly one dimensional and knew that we NEEDED to improve the run game as well as the short passing game.  How is that done?  💯 coaching?  No.  In order to run block, you have to have players that can actually run block.  We could’ve drafted one in rd 2-  instead, we have boogie.  We could’ve drafted another one in rd 5 we took the he biggest project OT the world has ever seen.  Some people are posted because it was obvious what needed yo be done to fix the O, but instead, we completely ignored it.  
 

Many of us look at the entire picture.  The road to get to where we are and what we could’ve done in order to improve.…..and for w/e reason, that doesn’t sit well with you.  

 

back to the OP:  

Iirc, our team improved dramatically with the addition of Isaiah mckenzie as well as Stefon Diggs.  2 very different personalities that seem to have had a huge effect on our locker room.  Isaiah is that guy to me.  Kid better hold onto the ball or he might have to take a hike

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

The Bills self-inflicted mistakes are no doubt a contributing factor. You've given very good examples. The point I was trying to make is that I think it's disingenuous for someone to say "the Bills are beating themselves" as the only reason they are losing. They got their a**es handed to them Sunday.  

 

Fair point.  It's not the only reason they are losing. 

 

But it's the reason why what could have been a close, competitive game where we had a chance, turned into a rout.

[DrDawkinstein]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Of course the Colts would disagree.  But on the first drive, the Colts didn't commit two back to back pre-snap penalties that put the Bills into a 3-and-18 hole, then throw an interception.  The Bills did that.

 

On the drive after the Bills went right down the field and scored a TD, the Colts didn't commit a stupid "Roughing the Passer" penalty and a stupid DPI penalty that took it from 3rd and 8 at the Colts 27 to first down at the the Colts 42.  The Bills did that, and if the rest of the drive is the same that's the difference between 3 pts and a punt.

 

Josh Allen threw catchable balls that his receivers failed to haul in.  It wasn't that they were super well defended; our guys just didn't hang on.  The Bills did that.

 

Isaiah McKenzie had an untouched fumble on a kickoff return, caused by the ground.  The Colts didn't do that.  The Bills did that.

 

So yes, the Colts played well and deserved to win.  But the Bills beat themselves in all 3 phases, with dumb penalties, drops, and turnovers.  If the Bills hadn't beaten themselves, they might have won; they might still have lost, but it would have been a close competitive game.  They wouldn't have shat the bed in a rout.

 

And yes, the Colts would disagree, but it's not "cliche' to say that the Bills are beating themselves; it's true, critical to understanding what's going on and fixing it.  The Bills don't need to wear pearls or have Joc Pederson playing music in the locker room or yelling at people; they need to get back to playing fundamentally sound, disciplined, football.

 

 

 

One of my favorite and most accurate Belichick-isms is: "More games in the NFL are lost than won", and he's also said "Dumb loses more games than Smart wins".

 

Point is, games are usually decided by one team making more mistakes and beating themselves. Bills are a perfect example of that this year.

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

THREADS THE WEEK AFTER A BILLS' LOSS:


NEWMAN: Lately, though, I've been, uh, - I've been buying the generic brand of waxed beans. you know. 

I rip of the label. I can hardly tell the difference.

KRAMER: Well, we've officially bottomed out. What's our next thread?

 

[Thriftygamer83]

Needing the locker room leader to step up and be the voice in that room.  Not just to sit by and allow things and collapses to happen.  Bickering Bills had leaders and that created a more creative environment and every team deals with turmoil in the ranks differently.  If we're expected to behave as a base like treasuring it as a pomp and circumstance relative then it's a woefully ill measure taken without consideration of thoughts and feelings on the team direction.  Sorry, if that upsets anyone do know a thing or two about those customs being from Maine.

12 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

THREADS THE WEEK AFTER A BILLS' LOSS:


NEWMAN: Lately, though, I've been, uh, - I've been buying the generic brand of waxed beans. you know. 

I rip of the label. I can hardly tell the difference.

KRAMER: Well, we've officially bottomed out. What's our next thread?

 

No I think we're more like Red and the gang from that 70's show right now.  Smile, be polite, and if not there's a foot up the arse waiting lol.

[atlbillsfan1975]

As a Braves fan living in Atlanta, I have reminded myself of the Braves path to the WS after a couple of Bills losses.
The big difference between the Braves run and the Bills, is the Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos went out and made some trades before the trade deadline. Beane did not. Not getting into that right now because it doesn’t matter. What is important is that there is nobody coming to “save” the Bills. They need to circle the wagons themselves! 
So come on boys! Circle the wagons. All of us. 
Go Bills! 

[Thriftygamer83]

25 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

As a Braves fan living in Atlanta, I have reminded myself of the Braves path to the WS after a couple of Bills losses.
The big difference between the Braves run and the Bills, is the Braves GM Alex Anthopoulos went out and made some trades before the trade deadline. Beane did not. Not getting into that right now because it doesn’t matter. What is important is that there is nobody coming to “save” the Bills. They need to circle the wagons themselves! 
So come on boys! Circle the wagons. All of us. 
Go Bills! 

You wonder at this point what can be done to salvage and save us from ourselves.  The fan base is going between frustrated and others thinking it's impolite or immature to even show emotions at times.  It's like they've never even been to a game or even played football at any level.

[Lv-Bills]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Of course the Colts would disagree.  But on the first drive, the Colts didn't commit two back to back pre-snap penalties that put the Bills into a 3-and-18 hole, then throw an interception.  The Bills did that.

 

On the drive after the Bills went right down the field and scored a TD, the Colts didn't commit a stupid "Roughing the Passer" penalty and a stupid DPI penalty that took it from 3rd and 8 at the Colts 27 to first down at the the Colts 42.  The Bills did that, and if the rest of the drive is the same that's the difference between 3 pts and a punt.

 

Josh Allen threw catchable balls that his receivers failed to haul in.  It wasn't that they were super well defended; our guys just didn't hang on.  The Bills did that.

 

Isaiah McKenzie had an untouched fumble on a kickoff return, caused by the ground.  The Colts didn't do that.  The Bills did that.

 

So yes, the Colts played well and deserved to win.  But the Bills beat themselves in all 3 phases, with dumb penalties, drops, and turnovers.  If the Bills hadn't beaten themselves, they might have won; they might still have lost, but it would have been a close competitive game.  They wouldn't have shat the bed in a rout.

 

And yes, the Colts would disagree, but it's not "cliche' to say that the Bills are beating themselves; it's true, critical to understanding what's going on and fixing it.  The Bills don't need to wear pearls or have Joc Pederson playing music in the locker room or yelling at people; they need to get back to playing fundamentally sound, disciplined, football.

 

 

With all due respect, this wasn't a game where the Bills beat themselves.  The Bills got physically Crap Stomped by a team that imposed their will on them from the first kickoff.  Saying the Bills beat themselves in this one is sorta as crazy as when the goofball Little League dad blames umpires for his son's 22-2 loss in baseball.  Yeah, ummm, it wasn't the umpires fault.  And in the case of the Bills here....it was a good old fashioned ass kicking.  The Bills sucked.  Period.  And this game hurts more, and becomes heightened because it's not far removed from losing to an awful Jax team.

 

I can't wait until Thursday so all of this absurd stuff will stop, and we can see if the Bills can answer the bell.

[Nineforty]

4 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

  Was watching the MLB Network and they where saying how important Joc Pederson was to the Atlanta Braves and them turning things around after losing their best player Ronald Acuna and of course ultimately winning the World Series.
  He walked into the locker room the first day after he was traded and the place was like a morgue so he went in and told the trainer turn the music up and started getting in their faces.

  Do the Bills even have this kind of player? 

 

Just got my Braves pennant delivered!  

[benderbender]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

That's a good question, but it illustrates the complexity needed for the answer.  There are guys who can maybe hold up and not get pushed back into Josh for 2.5 seconds, but that won't help if Josh is holding the ball for 3.4 seconds.  We can put more guys in to protect, but that won't work if the guys we send out to the pattern can't get open in 2.5 or 3.4 seconds and it results in Josh forcing the ball and turning it over.  We can run for short gains and take short passes, but that won't work if we don't play mistake-free ball and avoid penalties that put us in a 3 and 18 hole.

This^^^. It seemed to be that in the Jax and Ind games that Allen expected to have 3 seconds to work with and when it wasn’t there, he panicked. He and the OL were the very definition of out of sync. I’m no OC but how about do what flat footed Tom Brady does when opposing D gets pressure and throw a slant or a screen every now and then? Or do the old Denver staple Shannahan roll out? Worked for Elway/Manning long after they were mobile enough to scare you with a scramble. Seems to be plenty of options available scheme wise.

Edited November 23, 2021 by benderbender

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Lv-Bills said:

With all due respect, this wasn't a game where the Bills beat themselves.  The Bills got physically Crap Stomped by a team that imposed their will on them from the first kickoff.  Saying the Bills beat themselves in this one is sorta as crazy as when the goofball Little League dad blames umpires for his son's 22-2 loss in baseball. 

 

With all due respect, I gave specific and accurate examples of things the Bills did to "beat themselves" in the Colts-Bills game.

 

If you want to argue that somehow these examples (several of which directly led to Colts points while taking potential Bills points off the board) don't matter, or that other examples of the Colts simply making great plays mattered more - you certainly could make that argument.

 

But you don't, in fact, make that argument - instead you resort to the "ad hominum" which is to dismiss what I say as "crazy as when the goofball Little League dad blames umpires...." (of course, I did not blame the refs, I blamed the Bills players for committing the penalties, making the turnovers, dropping the passes).   That's also ironic, because despite leading off "with all due respect", it is, in fact....disrespectful.

 

We're all down on Daboll and Frazier and McDermott right now, but there's a reason when asked what they need to change, they talk about fixing the turnovers and the penalties.  Because when you have 3 turnovers that were NOT forced - they were bad decisions and bad ball security - plus pre- and post- snap penalties. plus catchable balls that aren't, your team is beating itself.  Period.

 

I specifically said "So yes, the Colts played well and deserved to win.  But the Bills beat themselves in all 3 phases, with dumb penalties, drops, and turnovers.  If the Bills hadn't beaten themselves, they might have won; they might still have lost, but it would have been a close competitive game.  They wouldn't have shat the bed in a rout.

 

I'd also like to point out that you object to saying "the Bills beat themselves" but you say "the Bills sucked".  What exactly is "sucking", if it isn't...beating yourself?

 

If the Bills show up on Thursday and commit the same stupid turnovers and penalties and miscues, you're not going to see "this absurd stuff" stop, you're going to see more of it.

[poblano]

You are overthinking this, overcome this kind of situation is just matter of time.  Work and time, the team already has showed theirs capacities just let it come again without panic

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, benderbender said:

This^^^. It seemed to be that in the Jax and Ind games that Allen expected to have 3 seconds to work with and when it wasn’t there, he panicked. He and the OL were the very definition of out of sync. I’m no OC but how about do what flat footed Tom Brady does when opposing D gets pressure and throw a slant or a screen every now and then? Or do the old Denver staple Shannahan roll out? Worked for Elway/Manning long after they were mobile enough to scare you with a scramble. Seems to be plenty of options available scheme wise.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Josh and the OL were the very definition of out of sync".  Are you thinking or arguing that the protections were wrong?  And I don't agree that "Josh panicked".  What he did, do, is try to take too much of it on himself, and try to do too much.  Then the question is "why?"

 

What flat footed Tom Brady does when opposing teams get pressure, is turn to a run game or to dump-offs to guys who can consistently get 3-5 YAC.

 

We don't seem to have a run game, and when we do try...Motor and Moss both average 2.2 yards after contact.  Beasley averages 3.8 yards after contact, but I believe that's been markedly lower the last 3 games (since Miami).  That's not enough for Josh to feel comfortable counting on them to go get us a first down when it's 3rd and 5 or more to go.  Knox is doing better with 5.7 YAC per reception, but he's been out and is perhaps still hampered - which brings up another point, a lot of these teams with alternatives have two capable TE.

 

We need commitment to making a run game work, and we need commitment to getting YAC.

 

 

[Jauronimo]

Who is the Bills Esa Tikkanen?  Who is the Bills Harriet Tubman?  Who is the Bills Andrew Dice Clay?  Is McDermott just a peace time Benjamin Disreali or can he be a Kublai Khan?  Is Beane enough Otto Von Bismarck or is he too much Hirohito?  

 

Each new thread is a race to the bottom.

[Lv-Bills]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

With all due respect, I gave specific and accurate examples of things the Bills did to "beat themselves" in the Colts-Bills game.

 

If you want to argue that somehow these examples (several of which directly led to Colts points while taking potential Bills points off the board) don't matter, or that other examples of the Colts simply making great plays mattered more - you certainly could make that argument.

 

But you don't, in fact, make that argument - instead you resort to the "ad hominum" which is to dismiss what I say as "crazy as when the goofball Little League dad blames umpires...." (of course, I did not blame the refs, I blamed the Bills players for committing the penalties, making the turnovers, dropping the passes).   That's also ironic, because despite leading off "with all due respect", it is, in fact....disrespectful.

 

We're all down on Daboll and Frazier and McDermott right now, but there's a reason when asked what they need to change, they talk about fixing the turnovers and the penalties.  Because when you have 3 turnovers that were NOT forced - they were bad decisions and bad ball security - plus pre- and post- snap penalties. plus catchable balls that aren't, your team is beating itself.  Period.

 

I specifically said "So yes, the Colts played well and deserved to win.  But the Bills beat themselves in all 3 phases, with dumb penalties, drops, and turnovers.  If the Bills hadn't beaten themselves, they might have won; they might still have lost, but it would have been a close competitive game.  They wouldn't have shat the bed in a rout.

 

I'd also like to point out that you object to saying "the Bills beat themselves" but you say "the Bills sucked".  What exactly is "sucking", if it isn't...beating yourself?

 

If the Bills show up on Thursday and commit the same stupid turnovers and penalties and miscues, you're not going to see "this absurd stuff" stop, you're going to see more of it.

You gave a bunch of excuses.  I actually got sucked in to comment when I didn't have time to comment, so I wish I would have just stayed away.  

 

The Bills got hammered.   Period.  And when you get hammered, and when you are getting beaten down physically, you start making the kinds of mistakes you've outlined in your first post about this out of desperation.

 

I actually don't have issue with anything you said.  None.  It's all true....from a technical standpoint.  But on this Sunday, those tings you've outlined weren't the reason they lost.   It wasn't the root cause.

 

I don't have time to go look at tape to see if Knox dropped a pass because his left shoe hit a water puddle while his right index fingernail split open from a piece of turf that was sticking up with a rubber pellet in his eye.  Obviously, this is way over dramatic, and nonsense, but so are the excuses.

 

When you get beat down physically.  When you don't (or can't) match the opponent's intensity.  When another team is more physical, is playing faster, and larger than your team, it forces you into mistakes, because sooner or later, your spirit is broken.  This what that type of game.  This has nothing to do with any one example that you cited above, because those mistakes were most likely being made out of some kind of desperation or inferiority because of their opponent's dominance. 

 

The Bills players were panicking, overmatched, and clearly inferior on Sunday.  And when that happens, you tend to make mistakes by committing penalties to make up for your inadequacies.  This isn't the case every week.  But this past Sunday, they were simply beaten.  And when you are beaten as bad as they were physically, all of those mistakes usually happen because players are pressing or panicked.

 

If the Bills weren't getting beaten so badly, maybe McKenzie doesn't try to cut sharply in an attempt to make a big play, on wet turf, because he thinks he personally needs to make a play to get his team back in to the game.  Maybe even he calls for a fair catch in bad weather.  Instead, the Colts were dictating the game, forced him into a mistake (that the Colts created by taking such a large, and early lead) that usually might not make.  

 

Maybe the pre-snap penalties would have been less if Bills players weren't pressing so much because of what the Colts players were doing to them thus causing panic on their part.

 

Maybe the dropped passes wouldn't have happened as much if the Colts weren't dictating the game putting pressure on Bills players to suddenly produce in pressure situations caused by the Colts that took a large lead.  Maybe anticipating a physical collision because the Colts level of physicality was a bit too much on Sunday, thus some of the drops.

 

Maybe Josh doesn't force the ball into double and triple coverage if he isn't pressing because they have absolutely no run game and are throwing every down.

 

This past Sunday wasn't analytical football.  This was simply a way more physically dominant football team, on this particular Sunday, breaking the Bills spirit. 

 

And the problem became that NOBODY answered the bell for the Bills.  Not the coaching staff.  Not the players.  Nobody.  

 

This one game.......was no more difficult to asses than that.  This was a good ole, I'm bigger, faster, and stronger than you, and you can't touch me mentality ass whoppin that the Bills weren't ready for against the Colts.  Man vs Man, they kicked our tail.  

 

Throw this one out, get humbled, and get your focus back this Thursday.  If they have "it" they'll bounce back from humiliation on Thursday.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Lv-Bills

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

51 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Who is the Bills Esa Tikkanen?  Who is the Bills Harriet Tubman?  Who is the Bills Andrew Dice Clay?  Is McDermott just a peace time Benjamin Disreali or can he be a Kublai Khan?  Is Beane enough Otto Von Bismarck or is he too much Hirohito?  

 

Each new thread is a race to the bottom.

Shut down the forums until after the NO game.  Jauronimo just won TBD-TSW. 😆🍺🏆

[Motorin']

5 hours ago, MJS said:

Why? Can't it be any of the other 52 on the roster?

 

When did I say that? It would be nice if more than one player steps up to provide a spark of leadership to light a fire under their asses. 

 

Remember when Edmunds took that role in 2019 following an ugly loss to the Browns and an ugly loss to Philly a few weeks before? 

 

In my opinion, there's no vocal leader on the defense since Kyle and Lorax retired. Jerry's not that guy. Tremaine is in position to be that leader, even if out of character for him. He's done it before, and he can do it again.

[LabattBlue]

There is a lot to be said for heart and soul guys.  I think the Dodgers really missed Hernandez and Pederson this pat season.  As far as the Bills go, do they have guys to fill the role of locker room leaders?  Who knows.