Serious question; what causes a team to pancake like this?

[dorquemada]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wow.

 

I respect that your friend doesn't know and won't guess, but from his experience, would it more likely be a player who has been there a while and has become dissatisfied, or a new player?

 

Because if the latter, I wouldn't think it would be a rookie, but we didn't bring in that many vets, and a lower-tier vet fighting for a future big contract like Obada wouldn't seem to be a candidate.

 

 

 

He said the usual suspects are vets who signed a contract less than they thought they should get.  We've got a few guys that we signed to their second contracts, like Dawkins and Milano, at maybe a little lower than what we thought they would get on the open market, though I have a hard time thinking it's either of them

 

 

[JackKemp]

That players are ending up on the Covid list tells me they are to nonchalant about winning and teamwork. Players who don’t want to get vaccinated then need to avoid situations where they can get exposed to it. Getting vaccinated should have been motivated by not being distracted from the team goals. I get personal freedom, but so many of the players are demonstrating individualism versus team commitment. They can get by with talent against bad teams. They aren’t going to beat the goods ones without becoming team first like they were last year. 

[npeartisgod]

Thanks, folks. Some really good insights here. I appreciate it. 

 

Seems to me that Beasley was our flat "wasp" like Edelman; always getting open for a first down strike. Doesn't seem to have the same spark.

Knox has been wonderful in coming along and hanging ON to catches.

We have an elite downfield receiver corp.

We need a runner -- a bull. Beane should have at least tried before draft deadline.

And O-Line has GOT to step it up. I was amazed to see the clip on this board of Williams in the Jax game just not lined up on anyone and the left defender ran by him untouched.

Josh is amazing when he's on -- it just looks like the ball would hurt you coming in so fast. And his throws are just like rockets. When he's rattled or "off" he does things that a fourth year player might, but should not, do -- like his sidearm short tosses, or forcing a play. The man has thrown for almost 11,000 yards with over 70 touchdowns. We're lucky to have him.

I would love to have a drink with Eric and get his inner perspective.

 

And, the reason I mentioned Brady was that even the GOAT is having a ***** time, and I love it; and it makes me feel just a tad better about our team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Vaccination is the difference between missing 2 practices and missing 2 games.  Everyone knew the rules.  

 

Just a note here that this is only true if a player is asymptomatic and tests negative 2x 24 hrs apart.

That's not always the case for vaccinated players (though they could sometimes come back sooner than 10 days). 

 

For example, vaccinated Big Ben went on the Covid list Nov 13, Saturday.  He said he tested negative for the first time on Nov 19th, Friday, then the 2nd time Nov 20th, Saturday, and played on Sunday.   It's still a difference - if he were unvaccinated, he would have had to miss a 2nd game - but it's not necessarily that big of a difference.

[msw2112]

3 minutes ago, billybob71 said:

I dont think its any of the above,  the fact is the Bills are playing NFL teams who are all just as talented as they are. You win some and you lose some, lots of parity right now, get used to it and try to enjoy the ride. 

 

I agree with this, in part.  It is true that there is lots parity in the league right now.  The Bucs lost to the Washington Team last week.  The #1 seed Titans lost to the woeful Texans yesterday.  The Cowboys lost to the middlin' Broncos last week.  The Ravens lost to Miami last week.  Of course, the Bills lost to the Jags a few weeks ago.  So yes, any team can truly lose to any other team on any given Sunday.  A team can be 6-4 (or 7-4, depending on when the team had its bye) and still be a contender.  In the AFC, that includes the Bills, the Chiefs, the Steelers (5-4-1, with a tie), the Colts (now 6-5), and the Pats.  Other top condenders have 3 losses:  the Ravens, Titans, Cowboys, Rams, Packers, Buccaneers, etc.  Nobody in the league has less than 3 losses so far this year.  The Bills are only 1 game off of the best record in the league.

 

The problem that I have is not just that the Bills lost to the Colts.  It was how they lost.  They were dominated in all 3 phases of the game.  They were blown out.  At home.  They were undisciplined and made tons of costly mistakes.  They were beaten physically (Colts players were better) and schematically (Colts coaching was better).  The Titans loss was different - a close, competitive game against a good team on the road that they had a chance to win and with one play (Josh doesn't lose his footing on the 4th and 1 sneak), they probably win.  This one was just terrible in every way.

 

There is still plenty of time for the Bills to right the ship and get their game back.  But, yes, as fans, we have a right to be concerned at this point.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, npeartisgod said:

I am sure most, if not all of us, have never been inside the NFL machine. And I am well aware that it is a business and the business lives on our money. But, I am genuinely curious (amidst another disappointing day after) what causes a team with such an auspicious start to just pancake? Is it inner lockerroom politics? Is it that the players and management are at loggerheads? I get that we don't have a real run threat, and that makes us rather one dimensional, but our D is spectacular, and Josh is the real deal. I would be interested to hear serious opinions or insights.

 

BTW, Brady is on his way to a three game losing streak for the first time in a decade.

 

Go Bills!

The simple answer is an inability (or unwillingness) to adjust to what you are seeing and/or to effectively execute.  Teams have adjusted to our offensive and defensive schemes.  We don’t seem to be able to effectively counter as of now.  Some injuries have certainly exacerbated that situation.  Dawkins is one that gets overlooked a lot.  Kudos to him for gutting it out, but he isn’t 100% and he won’t be 100% this season.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, npeartisgod said:

And O-Line has GOT to step it up. I was amazed to see the clip on this board of Williams in the Jax game just not lined up on anyone and the left defender ran by him untouched.

 

To be fair to Williams, as far as I know when you see a picture like that, there's almost certain to be a communication issue where the tackle didn't get the snap count correctly communicated to him (source: former NFL tackle).

[RoyBatty is alive]

55 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

I said this after the Jax game.  A friend of mine who used to work in the Pats org, and probably knows more about football than anyone I know, said that the Bills have a cancer on the team.  He doesn't follow them close enough to guess who/what it is, but he said it's as clear as day.  It's hard to argue against that, given how they're swirling the drain

 

A friend of your that used to work for the Pats told this insight did he/she?

 

They dont follow the bills close enough but they know there is a cancer on the team.  Yeah and it is clear as day and hard to argue against is it?

 

TBD never fails with post panic posts.

 

This is one of the more absurd things I have read here.

[billybob71]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Yes, the Bills are playing other NFL teams with NFL talent, but the point is how they are losing.  They are not losing like a well prepared, well coached team of recent games.

 

It's not just a coin flip.  How the team prepares, plays, and executes comes into it.

 

i agree  match ups, turnovers, coaching, penalties, etc etc all go into the outcome and luck too, but Ive never been shocked when this Bills team loses, disappointed yes, its extremely rare and hard to have a truly dominant team in todays NFL, and i think as fans we get too emotionally invested in our players thinking their better than they really are, the other teams (even the ones with losing records) have many players who are just as good. and i am prob just stating the obvious here 

[CheshireCT]

How can anyone comment on player attitudes? We don't have a clue as to how these guys are functioning on a day to day basis. I'm not convinced that this team is egotistic and lazy.

 

OFFENSE - What we know is that our offense has always been one dimensional, and the O-line is below average. Those are ongoing issues. Now teams are figuring out how to exploit that better and better on a week to week basis, based on the tape they see from other teams. The offense has to find out how to adjust to what teams are doing to shut us down. I'm not going to pretend to know the answer, but I believe they can correct some things and make adjustments going forward.

 

DEFENSE - Our pass defense is the much stronger than the run defense. When Star is out, it REALLY goes to *****. couple that with a team with a great running game (Tennessee, Indy), and we're in serious trouble. So the question is, what adjustments need to be made to stop the run, and how can they compensate without Star?

 

Then add the weather elements in there, and our team is EVEN MORE unequipped to handle the situation. The Colts are equipped to pound the rock, and they did it well. Our passing game was anemic, and even when JA did throw the ball on target, a bunch of balls were dropped.

 

While I would logically say that it's understandable for a team to have some matchups that just aren't good for them (tennessee, Indy for instance), getting spanked this badly isn't an acceptable outcome. The whole team has to figure out how to adjust to the things teams are doing to them now. I hope this is simply a growing pain, and they figure it out. The good news is, IF they do get it figured out, they will be an even better team going forward. Teachable moment? i hope so.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

My theory is this team isn't interested in a regular season game, they want playoffs

 

Players get this high of how intense a championship game is and thats all they want. Soon it becomes difficult to get up for a 1-8 team mid season. 

 

Its why its so hard to stay at the top and come back after losing and go far in consecutive years

[billybob71]

and i get it we are getting beat down at the point of attack on both sides of the ball, not sure that is fixable without reshaping roster, and we are getting out coached in some games but doesnt every team have that happen?

[RoyBatty is alive]

20 minutes ago, billybob71 said:

I dont think its any of the above,  the fact is the Bills are playing NFL teams who are all just as talented as they are. You win some and you lose some, lots of parity right now, get used to it and try to enjoy the ride. 

This is the reality but so many are looking for a "reason".  NFL is all about parity, every time a dominant teams appears to be at the top they lose, week in week out.

 

Who saw the Titans losing to Houston yesterday, no one did.

 

Losses happen, even ugly loses happen to all teams, Bills are no exception.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, dorquemada said:

I said this after the Jax game.  A friend of mine who used to work in the Pats org, and probably knows more about football than anyone I know, said that the Bills have a cancer on the team.  He doesn't follow them close enough to guess who/what it is, but he said it's as clear as day.  It's hard to argue against that, given how they're swirling the drain

What's interesting to me about this statement is that the Bills really started to taper off right around the time of Beasley's whole "They boo me at home" Twitter rant. 

 

Not saying at all that he's a cancer but the timing is suspect at the very least in my eyes.

[Sugar High JA17]

“ we’ll learn from this” “we’ve put this behind us” “we’ll watch the tape” “ it’s all correctable” “ just need to execute” “ back to fundamentals”.👏👏👏

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, npeartisgod said:

I am sure most, if not all of us, have never been inside the NFL machine. And I am well aware that it is a business and the business lives on our money. But, I am genuinely curious (amidst another disappointing day after) what causes a team with such an auspicious start to just pancake? Is it inner lockerroom politics? Is it that the players and management are at loggerheads? I get that we don't have a real run threat, and that makes us rather one dimensional, but our D is spectacular, and Josh is the real deal. I would be interested to hear serious opinions or insights.

 

BTW, Brady is on his way to a three game losing streak for the first time in a decade.

 

Go Bills!

Quite frankly the Bills are no longer this nice up and coming story as every single team now looks at them as a measuring stick and many of these guys weren’t ready for it 

[billybob71]

all the media hype and talking heads, analytics, stats, PFF, predictions, blah blah blah, it all don't mean s###,  the NFL is now highly unpredictable. Hell Football is really just controlled chaos with an oblong ball that can bounce any which way and athletes who are faster, stronger and flying around like crazy. Throw in injuries, covid, bad officiating, good and bad coaching, weather, and the fact that these players are mostly just 20 year old kids

[Behindenemylines]

I’m not reading all the other replies because it’s simple: leadership. 
 

coaches have zero fire in them right now and it shows. McD needed to go for that 4th down instead of the crap FG.  That would have sent a message even if we missed.  Allen was dejected on that decision
 

I don’t see the emotion on crap calls, don’t see him ripping players on stupidly fumbling the damn kickoff or playing dumb with penalties 
 

we as fans should demand better leadership and McD has it in him I believe but he’s let us get soft and as importantly he’s let himself get soft 
 

can we make the playoffs-yes. Will it be easy-no.  
 

If we don’t fix our run stop and pass rush the Patriots will eat us alive and that is too much to bear.  
 

STOP BEING CHARMIN SOFT AND PLAYING LIKE WHAT ITS USED FOR!

[maddenboy]

38 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

 

He said the usual suspects are vets who signed a contract less than they thought they should get.  We've got a few guys that we signed to their second contracts, like Dawkins and Milano, at maybe a little lower than what we thought they would get on the open market, though I have a hard time thinking it's either of them

 

 

As far as a Cancer in the locker room, I think this is a road worth pursuing.  A couple thoughts:

 

1)  it can easily be more than one person.  Spreading, or started in multiple spots

2)  I think we should identify the symptoms, which would help in finding the cause.  The main symptom seems to be playing without urgency.  The 2nd is mental errors (to your point about the venn diagram upthread)

3)  It is likely someone with influence.  Not somebody that the good, core players would tune-out.  

4)  I would add to your friend's idea about underpaid vets, the idea of over-paid players who dont love the game and have essentially checked-out.

 

So, if this is a thing.   If.  I'd be looking at somebody like

 

-Ed Oliver, who imo doesnt love football.  (a poster today discussed him yukking it up on the sideline while getting steamrolled)

 

-Star.  even though he plays hard, maybe the players dont like his attitude re: covid and doing what's best for his own $$, true or not.  Sometimes players might think "i dont care how good he his, i'm sick of him being here"

 

-AJE (because they made him completely change.  maybe he has a grudge and thinks he'd be better off on a team that would let him be himself), or

 

-considering the biggest problem on the team, someone or two on the O-line.  That unit requires chemistry.  That unit is failing badly.  The rbs know it.  JA17 knows it.  

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by maddenboy

[CheshireCT]

23 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

This is the reality but so many are looking for a "reason".  NFL is all about parity, every time a dominant teams appears to be at the top they lose, week in week out.

 

Who saw the Titans losing to Houston yesterday, no one did.

 

Losses happen, even ugly loses happen to all teams, Bills are no exception.

I agree with you generally, though it becomes concerning when a losing pattern emerges. Right now we’re in a losing pattern. Fortunately it’s mid season and not late season…