Serious question; what causes a team to pancake like this?

[Evian]

15 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

He's pissed and rightfully so. He believes in team and making sacrifices.

Uh there is a difference, a vaccine.

 

Covid lists in the NFL are full of vaccinated players. The vaccine does not prevent players from testing positive. Virtually every player testing positive has been vaccinated. Rodgers was the exception, not the rule.  The Bills coach has never brought this issue up anyway. The NFL is 95%+ vaccinated. Stop using this lame excuse.  The coach is the problem, not the 1 or 2 unvaccinated players on the roster.  He has a soft and undisciplined team. That is all on him. He is right when he says "I have to do better" in virtually every press conference.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/11/04/nfl-covid-vaccine-aaron-rodgers-rules/6284838001/

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Evian

[Roundybout]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Enh ... he's not very good, and a player like Butler isn't important enough to bring a team down. The bigger issue is being figured out schematically and the QB not adjusting. This has been posted elsewhere, but I'll post it again: 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/josh-allen-patrick-mahomes-two-high-cover-two-data-11637552010?st=eszmchtgi8gx64h&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

 

 

I'm not sure how much of the adjustments are on Allen. I just don't see a lot of open underneath stuff, just the same old shotgun and everyone run deep. 

 

Did you notice how badly Josh wanted to go for it on 4th and 5? I am still stunned they put Bass out there. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

This team is playing as if it is preordained that they will go deep in the playoffs. Some players think their playing time is guaranteed despite poor performances. These things are representative of coaching deficiencies. The other factors are the inevitable results of having difference makers injured or unvaccinated. Now if Sean is the coach we want going forward, he can motivate these players to be better. Will there be enough talent to change our trajectory is the question. 

 

I think this is a pretty accurate take.  Playing against lesser teams or teams with known flaws, some of our player leaders say the right things as Poyer and Hyde do about the talent margin in the NFL being thin and records not mattering, but the team as a whole seems to act as though they can just show up.

 

The players as a whole seem "too loose" sometimes.  I'll give you an example.  In this past week's practice photos, there were several pictures of Josh Allen celebrating because apparently Jordan Poyer had picked him in practice and he ran him down and stripped it.  That's the wrong focus.  The focus should be on, what did Josh see or fail to see that led him to throw the ball Poyer picked?  It's as though Josh and his coaches think, "Oh, Poyer is just super-good at picking the ball so that won't happen on Sunday".  Except that the other team gets paid too, and it did, and at a crucial time.

 

 

[BarleyNY]

38 minutes ago, npeartisgod said:

I am sure most, if not all of us, have never been inside the NFL machine. And I am well aware that it is a business and the business lives on our money. But, I am genuinely curious (amidst another disappointing day after) what causes a team with such an auspicious start to just pancake? Is it inner lockerroom politics? Is it that the players and management are at loggerheads? I get that we don't have a real run threat, and that makes us rather one dimensional, but our D is spectacular, and Josh is the real deal. I would be interested to hear serious opinions or insights.

 

BTW, Brady is on his way to a three game losing streak for the first time in a decade.

 

Go Bills!

 

We have a good defense, but it is not spectacular by any stretch.  Their stats - and our record - have benefited from playing a stretch of abysmal QBs and a fairly easy schedule in general. 
 

Believe it or not other teams seemed to have spent some time looking for ways to slow down our one dimensional offense.  We took no steps to give that offense another dimension and here we are.  Thank goodness that Knox developed because without his early contributions we’d have been in worse trouble.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by BarleyNY

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Not looking to get into a pandemic, vaccination, politics fight as the mods have said.

 

But, just try to put yourselves in McDermott shoes and not just your own. His job is to be an NFL coach and win games. He obviously believes that getting vaccinated helps, as the NFL does. He sees no problem with that line of thinking, as most NFL coaches likely do. He believes in team and sacrifice, and wants his players available. They're not available and he's pissed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

I'm not sure how much of the adjustments are on Allen. I just don't see a lot of open underneath stuff, just the same old shotgun and everyone run deep.

Did you notice how badly Josh wanted to go for it on 4th and 5? I am still stunned they put Bass out there. 

 

There are plays where no one is open, but there are also plays where there is an open receiver underneath or in the flat, and Josh simply won't take it.

I don't know if this is because of how he's being coached (to read deep to shallow) or because of his head (he wants the kill shot) or because of lack of trust (he doesn't trust his teammates to get to the sticks if he throws short of them on 3rd down)  but it needs to get fixed, and fast.

 

Part of the problem is that we can't play sufficiently error-free ball to sustain a dink and dunk drive.  We will commit penalties, and find ourselves in 3rd and forever, then we press.  (yesterday 1st drive).

 

Jim Kubiak on TBN does a good job in going through each game play by play and pointing out when everyone is covered, and when there are open options.  Kurt Warner in his assessments, annoys me because he tends to overlook details like when the QB is running flat out for his life, but he also has done a couple assessments where he points out the open underneath stuff Allen isn't taking.

 

[Roundybout]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There are plays where no one is open, but there are also plays where there is an open receiver underneath or in the flat, and Josh simply won't take it.

I don't know if this is because of how he's being coached (to read deep to shallow) or because of his head (he wants the kill shot) or because of lack of trust (he doesn't trust his teammates to get to the sticks if he throws short of them on 3rd down)  but it needs to get fixed, and fast.

 

Part of the problem is that we can't play sufficiently error-free ball to sustain a dink and dunk drive.  We will commit penalties, and find ourselves in 3rd and forever, then we press.  (yesterday 1st drive).

 

 

Yup. I still am flummoxed that we didn't go for it on 4th and 5 too. Josh sure wanted it. We had some momentum. 

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

I'm not sure how much of the adjustments are on Allen. I just don't see a lot of open underneath stuff, just the same old shotgun and everyone run deep. 

 

Did you notice how badly Josh wanted to go for it on 4th and 5? I am still stunned they put Bass out there. 

Allen is a great player and the best player on the team,  but he came out in the third and was forcing bullets in a driving rain storm. The pick and near pick in the first two possessions were him forcing the issue downfield too. If it’s third and 18, just get into fg position. He has thrown 8 interceptable balls in the past three weeks, and it comes from him waiting for plays to develop, facing pressure, and forcing things. Mahomes has been going through the same thing. There are answers: a functional short passing game like the Pats use. If you succeed at that, like magic the deeper stuff will open up again. Ther is just not enough balance. I’ll say this too — a big mistake personnel wise was not going after Ertz. Hindsight is of course 20/20, but the Bills have only one credible TE on the roster, and Ertz has looked great the last three weeks. He would have really helped this offense out. I don’t know what the asking price was, but we should have met it in retrospect.

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There are plays where no one is open, but there are also plays where there is an open receiver underneath or in the flat, and Josh simply won't take it.

I don't know if this is because of how he's being coached (to read deep to shallow) or because of his head (he wants the kill shot) or because of lack of trust (he doesn't trust his teammates to get to the sticks if he throws short of them on 3rd down)  but it needs to get fixed, and fast.

 

Part of the problem is that we can't play sufficiently error-free ball to sustain a dink and dunk drive.  We will commit penalties, and find ourselves in 3rd and forever, then we press.  (yesterday 1st drive).

 

Yes, and a better group of tight ends is how you address this. In retrospect, going into the season with Tommy Sweeney, who is not good, as your only number 2 was not a good move.

Edited November 22, 2021 by dave mcbride

[MJS]

The offensive coaches are not preparing the offense well enough. Some of the injuries have had domino effects across the whole team. The players compound their issues by trying to do too much and making mistakes (especially Allen). It is particularly hard to come from behind in bad weather games because it affects the passing game more.

 

I also think the Bills have some good individual talents that do not operate as units. This is most evident on the defensive line. Good individual players the each do their own thing without really operating as a unit. The offensive line has the same problem except they don't have many good players, which makes it even worse.

 

I think another issue is teams come in as "underdogs" and give the Bills their best shot. It is an easy rallying point for players and coaches and adds more motivation for them.

 

The Bills are a finesse team and lack mental and physical toughness.

 

Ultimately, I think a lot of these issues come down to coaching, especially offensive coaching. McDermott needs to whip his offensive coaches into shape or start looking for replacements.

[Eastport bills]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think this is a pretty accurate take.  Playing against lesser teams or teams with known flaws, some of our player leaders say the right things as Poyer and Hyde do about the talent margin in the NFL being thin and records not mattering, but the team as a whole seems to act as though they can just show up.

 

The players as a whole seem "too loose" sometimes.  I'll give you an example.  In this past week's practice photos, there were several pictures of Josh Allen celebrating because apparently Jordan Poyer had picked him in practice and he ran him down and stripped it.  That's the wrong focus.  The focus should be on, what did Josh see or fail to see that led him to throw the ball Poyer picked?  It's as though Josh and his coaches think, "Oh, Poyer is just super-good at picking the ball so that won't happen on Sunday".  Except that the other team gets paid too, and it did, and at a crucial time.

 

 

Nice to be in agreement for once. Don't let it happen again. 

[JohnnyBuffalo]

I love this question because my 11 year old son is asking the same thing and it’s hard not to just shrug your shoulders and say - it’s a lot of things.
 

The fundamentals aren’t working for this team which then puts strain on the scheme and the game plan.   You get behind and become even more one dimensional any team in the nfl can make you look bad.    
 

Start with Pittsburgh….that game felt similar to what the Bucs did to the Chiefs in the Super Bowl.    Titans….a bit more even but when it comes down to it our D got chewed up.    Yesterday….see Pittsburgh game combined with Titans and a horrible mishap at the absolute wrong moment before half and you get what you got.

 

Fundamentals….#1 block.   Has not been great.   #2 tackle ….has seemed to be decent at times but a true run team has beaten us up.   #3 protect the ball.   Well this has not been great lately and see items 1 and 2 for making turnovers more prevalent.   
 

I actually think the short week turn around could help these guys.   As strange as that may seem it could be just right.   It will go one of two ways…they’ll either win or they will lose.  Haha.  
 

Here’s to hoping for a W!  Go Bills!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

7 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Yup. I still am flummoxed that we didn't go for it on 4th and 5 too. Josh sure wanted it. We had some momentum. 

It really killed momentum and sent a faulty message. If we can't get 5 yards when down 17 forget it anyway. We weren't going to piecemeal get back into that game with FGs. We had 4 plays to get a FD and a TD and gave up...not to mention the weather, wind and length.

Edited November 22, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[KeLLy1278]

49 minutes ago, npeartisgod said:

BTW, Brady is on his way to a three game losing streak for the first time in a decade.

 

Go Bills!

I highly doubt that Brady will lose to the Colts and secondly, what does Brady losing or winning next week have to do with the Buffalo Bills?  The guy doesn’t even play in our division anymore.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Evian said:

 

Covid lists in the NFL are full of vaccinated players. The vaccine does not prevent players from testing positive. Virtually every player testing positive has been vaccinated. Rodgers was the exception, not the rule.  The Bills coach has never brought this issue up anyway. The NFL is 95%+ vaccinated. Stop using this lame excuse.  The coach is the problem. Not the 1 or 2 unvaccinated players on the roster.  He has a soft and undisciplined team. That is all on him.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/11/04/nfl-covid-vaccine-aaron-rodgers-rules/6284838001/

 

You are correct that the vaccine does not prevent players from testing positive, but I don't think you're correct that "virtually every player testing positive has been vaccinated".  At least in the preseason, the NFL's data was 7:1, (unvaccinated to vaccinated).  That ratio has inevitably shifted since almost everyone is vaccinated, but I don't think it's "the exception".  The link you presented does not present any new data on the topic, just that 94% of players are vaccinated. (on a roster+practice squad, 94% means 4 unvaccinated players; 91% means 6, not "1 or 2", but that's a nit)

 

The thing where you're completely right is that injuries and illness happen.  And the teams just have to adjust as best they can and move on.  All the teams are dealing with these issues. 

 

The Titans have won 2 and lost 1 since losing Derrick Henry, around whom their offense was built.

The Cardinals have won 2 and lost 1 without Kyler Murray, again - around whose unique skillset their offense was built.

 

The incontrovertable point is: Winners find a way; Losers find excuses.

 

 

 

 

 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

There are plays where no one is open, but there are also plays where there is an open receiver underneath or in the flat, and Josh simply won't take it.

I don't know if this is because of how he's being coached (to read deep to shallow) or because of his head (he wants the kill shot) or because of lack of trust (he doesn't trust his teammates to get to the sticks if he throws short of them on 3rd down)  but it needs to get fixed, and fast.

 

Part of the problem is that we can't play sufficiently error-free ball to sustain a dink and dunk drive.  We will commit penalties, and find ourselves in 3rd and forever, then we press.  (yesterday 1st drive).

 

Jim Kubiak on TBN does a good job in going through each game play by play and pointing out when everyone is covered, and when there are open options.  Kurt Warner in his assessments, annoys me because he tends to overlook details like when the QB is running flat out for his life, but he also has done a couple assessments where he points out the open underneath stuff Allen isn't taking.

 

 

This is a really significant point.  It's also why teams play bend, don't break defense so much in the NFL.  We seem to go backwards more than any team I've ever watched once we get into scoring range... it's uncanny. 

[billybob71]

I dont think its any of the above,  the fact is the Bills are playing NFL teams who are all just as talented as they are. You win some and you lose some, lots of parity right now, get used to it and try to enjoy the ride. 

[wppete]

I think majority of the blame falls on McDermott. He’s been awful as a HC decision making, strategy and adjustments. Let’s see if he takes the blame or passes it on. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

I said this after the Jax game.  A friend of mine who used to work in the Pats org, and probably knows more about football than anyone I know, said that the Bills have a cancer on the team.  He doesn't follow them close enough to guess who/what it is, but he said it's as clear as day.  It's hard to argue against that, given how they're swirling the drain

 

Wow.

 

I respect that your friend doesn't know and won't guess, but from his experience, would it more likely be a player who has been there a while and has become dissatisfied, or a new player?

 

Because if the latter, I wouldn't think it would be a rookie, but we didn't bring in that many vets, and a lower-tier vet fighting for a future big contract like Obada wouldn't seem to be a candidate.

 

5 minutes ago, billybob71 said:

I dont think its any of the above,  the fact is the Bills are playing NFL teams who are all just as talented as they are. You win some and you lose some, lots of parity right now, get used to it and try to enjoy the ride. 

 

Yes, the Bills are playing other NFL teams with NFL talent, but the point is how they are losing.  They are not losing like a well prepared, well coached team of recent games.

 

It's not just a coin flip.  How the team prepares, plays, and executes comes into it.

 

 

[Your Brown Eye]

The Bills are a great finesse, but they are not physical. Physical teams can beat these guys up. These guys cannot typically handle getting punched in the mouth over and over and over again. These guys are built to put up quick points, take a lead and force the other team to throw so they can utilize their strength's on defense of defending the pass. They are not built to take a pounding for a full 60 mins. And as of yesterday they are apparently not capable of taking a pounding for 5 minutes.

[Jauronimo]

27 minutes ago, Evian said:

 

Covid lists in the NFL are full of vaccinated players. The vaccine does not prevent players from testing positive. Virtually every player testing positive has been vaccinated. Rodgers was the exception, not the rule.  The Bills coach has never brought this issue up anyway. The NFL is 95%+ vaccinated. Stop using this lame excuse.  The coach is the problem, not the 1 or 2 unvaccinated players on the roster.  He has a soft and undisciplined team. That is all on him. He is right when he says "I have to do better" in virtually every press conference.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/11/04/nfl-covid-vaccine-aaron-rodgers-rules/6284838001/

 

 

Vaccination is the difference between missing 2 practices and missing 2 games.  Everyone knew the rules.  

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wow.

 

I respect that your friend doesn't know and won't guess, but from his experience, would it more likely be a player who has been there a while and has become dissatisfied, or a new player?

 

Because if the latter, I wouldn't think it would be a rookie, but we didn't bring in that many vets, and a lower-tier vet fighting for a future big contract like Obada wouldn't seem to be a candidate.

You want more speculation on top of baseless speculation? 

 

We couldn't stop the run or run the ball last year when the locker room was a love fest.  We have the same personnel.  Cancer might be the stupidest "diagnosis" offered to date.