DL Rotation Is Costing Us

[TampaBillsJunkie]

10 hours ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Game plan something they haven’t seen. Throw some 5-2 at them, blitz the CBs, put Oliver to the strength side as a DE a few times with Harrison and Butler…. But no, 4-2-5 Base Nickel. 

Exactly, this lineup is just too small. They constantly get mauled in the run game by good rushing teams. It's so sickening to watch. I knew by the end of the first drive we were going to lose the game.  There was no way this team was going to stop Taylor. And they made no adjustments and had no packages to do it. We need a flexible defense that can adjust to any type of offense that is thrown at us. 

 

Why we don't have a few 330+ guys as part of the DT rotation is beyond me. Why we rely on throwing 5 small DB's out there to stop the run is mind-boggling. We don''t need depth to run the same schemes, we need depth to run different schemes and adjust on offense or defense when needed. 

 

Trying to have Josh sling it 25-30 yds hoping to get a big play when he has no time is beyond me. We need to be able to run the damn ball and stop the damn run. We play in Buffalo. Yesterday was the first time in a long time I didn't finish watching the whole game. When they trotted Trubisky out, I hung on to see what he could do. One INT later it was time to get my sanity back.

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Let me start by saying I totally get the philosophy behind it and can even see some merit in theory. Aside from QB in my eyes the most importantly position is the fellas that chase the QBs.

 

However, we have a DL that is costing us around $40 million against the cap this year. Invested big money and high picks. For "part time" players. That's a HUGE amount to invest in players that are not full time difference makers.

 

What each one has on common right now is it this point in their careers each one is a JAG. Sure, Groot, Oliver, AJE and maybe possibly Boogie have some upside. And Hughes used to be solid. But NONE of them have anything elite in their game right now.

 

For the Pro-Hughes crowd. I know he "gets held oh so much and it's never called". But in reality it's way less than it's portrayed as. It's odd that his sacks dropped off for the most part when Mario left. And yes...he gets pressures. Wonderful. You know what he doesn't do? Take the QB down for a loss of yards. Kinda important. 

 

Our whole DL gets pressures at BEST. We have no one that's can semi consistently take a QB down. To throw a baseball term out...they have warning track power. We need a home run hitter.

 

Even the lack of guys that could get home and pull a QB down would be easy to look past if they were stout against the run. They are not. 

 

Then you have young guys like Oliver that start the game on fire a lot of the time and just kinda disappear. Almost like they get out of the flow of the game. And I cannot recall ONE game where our "fresh legged DL" took over a game late and dominated an exhasted OL. Instead we voluntarily take our better players off the field for a good chunk of the game and sub in lesser players. 

 

 

Our D is having a terrific year.

 

Losing Zimmer and then Star has hurt quite a bit.

 

The DL has been up and down but mostly up. There are a few guys who we should work on upgrading, Butler particularly. But the problem isn't the platooning.

 

Yes, it was an awful game. No, it was not all on the DL, not even close.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[BobbyC81]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You’re correct about the lack of blue chip talent, but it’s also a valid point that a lot of FA $$ have been invested (Lotulelei, Addison, Butler, last year Jefferson) and a lot of first 3 round draft picks (Harrison Phillips, Epenesa, Rousseau, Basham).  Last year I believe we had the most expensive DL in the league.

 

The problem is that the ROI doesn’t seem to equal the resources put into it, and in part that may be due to the desire to have 8 or 9 starting players rotating instead of several blue chip guys and a couple backups

But it worked in Carolina!

[billsfan714]

Who would of thunk AJ Epenesa and his 5 second plus 40 might not make a great DE.  

[LabattBlue]

I wonder how the Bills rotation compares to other playoff teams? I know there needs to be a rotation, but to this degree?

[Not at the table Karlos]

12 hours ago, vincec said:

I think the strategy of investing big in the OL is sound. The problem is that they haven't really cashed in on their investment.

Coaching is my guess. I haven't been a fan of any line Bobby Johnson has coached. 

[Process]

I REALLY hate McDermott sometimes

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Our D is having a terrific year.

 

Losing Zimmer and then Star has hurt quite a bit.

 

The DL has been up and down but mostly up. There are a few guys who we should work on upgrading, Butler particularly. But the problem isn't the platooning.

 

Yes, it was an awful game. No, it was not all on the DL, not even close.

Never said it was all in the DL though, did I? Merely pointing out that sinking that much money and those high of draft picks on 1 position group is not yielding the results that make it worthwhile to make such a huge investment. 

 

Investing so highly at that 1 group costs the ability to upgrade at other places. It's one of the reasons we have zero quality depth at key positions. And it really isn't even effective. 

 

The idea that "our D is having a terrific year" is highly highly suspect. Our D has played a lot of back up and scrub QBs as well which help the numbers. It's like about 6 weeks ago when people were not happy with the offense in the red zone and were told "Average 40 points a game. Shut up". This team and the way it was built is starting to show real flaws. Many of which were also flaws last year and were inadequately addressed.

 

Sorry but box scores and rankings are only part of the story. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Process said:

I REALLY hate McDermott sometimes

 

 

While it's safe to assume that the game score had something to do with snapcounts...

 

Hughes-3rd biggest cap hit on the team. Almost $10M for the season....21 snaps. 

 

Addison-5th biggest cap hit on team.

Just over $8M for the season....18 snaps.

 

$18 million dollars sitting the bench for a bulk of the game. Bet we could have signed a decent G, T and still found a DE to give us 39 snaps with not much drop off from what they turn in on an average week.

[billsbackto81]

I think we can all do with a lot less Addison. He's absolutely a waste of roster space and nothing good ever transpires when he's on the field. 

 

I want to see more AJ and Boogie at this point.

[Solomon Grundy]

16 hours ago, Process said:

It's terrible. But it's part of the process and won't change.

What’s even worse is that he continues to play Vernon Butler!! 

[billsbackto81]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Our D is having a terrific year.

 

Losing Zimmer and then Star has hurt quite a bit.

 

The DL has been up and down but mostly up. There are a few guys who we should work on upgrading, Butler particularly. But the problem isn't the platooning.

 

Yes, it was an awful game. No, it was not all on the DL, not even close.

That's BS! They can generate pressure at times but not enough to disrupt a good offense. 

Can't stand it when I read posters say," I'd rather have pressure than sacks, pressure causes turnovers". 

 

You know what else can cause turnovers? SACKS! Sacks intimidate the QB. Sacks causes the QB pain! Sacks can set up 3rd and long passing situations that can lead to? You guessed it, interceptions. Sacks take teams out of FG range. Sacks keep O lineman on their heels and cause false starts.

 

As good as this D can be at times it does not generate sacks. Give me sacks over pressure any day.

 

And BTW, do you know what the highest degree of QB pressure is? That's right! A SACK!!

[dave mcbride]

The Bills are number one in yards allowed on defense, #2 in points allowed, #1 in points allowed per drive, and #1 in pass defense. Opposing QBs have a 62.2 rating against them, which is abysmal. Yeah, they've played a lot of bad offenses, and I realize that needs to be factored in. 

 

My point is that while they're not perfect (no one is), they're doing something right. The problem yesterday is that had a matchup nightmare -- a team that basically dominated them in the playoffs last year but which finished drives this time around. The Colts have the best offensive line in the league and the best running back. They have a top 10 offense and a top five rushing attack. I'm not saying the Bills shouldn't have performed better yesterday, but they were missing two key players in their run defense and the Colts had everyone -- fully healthy.  I felt that the pass rush and pass defense was pretty solid yesterday. They had some bad penalties which hurt them, but they played well enough assuming they had been able to stop the run (which they couldn't). It wasn't as if Wentz was lighting them up. Their one passing TD was a very cleverly designed play to a guy who is really hard to bring down (Taylor).

 

Let's keep it in perspective. 

[34-78-83]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/opp.htm#all_advanced_defense

 

Sort by Pressure Percentage.

This tells us that the rotation is working for what it is intended for (to stop NFL passing attacks and affecting Qb's in the pocket).

 

The problem is with stopping the run. Being without Star and Edmunds also hurts, but either way the issue is stopping physical rush attacks. To me we only have good Dt's and thats Star and Ed O. They both have very specific things they do well, and Star has been out so... There's a big part of the issue. The rest of that can only be fixed next off-season unless we try to run blitz more often to cover up (but that creates new problems too).

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

That's BS! They can generate pressure at times but not enough to disrupt a good offense. 

Can't stand it when I read posters say," I'd rather have pressure than sacks, pressure causes turnovers". 

 

You know what else can cause turnovers? SACKS! Sacks intimidate the QB. Sacks causes the QB pain! Sacks can set up 3rd and long passing situations that can lead to? You guessed it, interceptions. Sacks take teams out of FG range. Sacks keep O lineman on their heels and cause false starts.

 

As good as this D can be at times it does not generate sacks. Give me sacks over pressure any day.

 

And BTW, do you know what the highest degree of QB pressure is? That's right! A SACK!!

The Bills D is 26th in sacks per game, but first in turnovers forced per game. Go figure!

2 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Never said it was all in the DL though, did I? Merely pointing out that sinking that much money and those high of draft picks on 1 position group is not yielding the results that make it worthwhile to make such a huge investment. 

 

Investing so highly at that 1 group costs the ability to upgrade at other places. It's one of the reasons we have zero quality depth at key positions. And it really isn't even effective. 

 

The idea that "our D is having a terrific year" is highly highly suspect. Our D has played a lot of back up and scrub QBs as well which help the numbers. It's like about 6 weeks ago when people were not happy with the offense in the red zone and were told "Average 40 points a game. Shut up". This team and the way it was built is starting to show real flaws. Many of which were also flaws last year and were inadequately addressed.

 

Sorry but box scores and rankings are only part of the story. 

I agree with you about the competition skew but there are some games coming up that will show us how good they really are. Let's wait and see. Yesterday was terrible, but all teams have those games now and then.

[34-78-83]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

The Bills D is 26th in sacks per game, but first in turnovers forced per game. Go figure!

#1 in pressure rate could explain much of that. See my post ^^

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/opp.htm#all_advanced_defense

 

Sort by Pressure Percentage.

This tells us that the rotation is working for what it is intended for (to stop NFL passing attacks and affecting Qb's in the pocket).

 

The problem is with stopping the run. Being without Star and Edmunds also hurts, but either way the issue is stopping physical rush attacks. To me we only have good Dt's and thats Star and Ed O. They both have very specific things they do well, and Star has been out so... There's a big part of the issue. The rest of that can only be fixed next off-season unless we try to run blitz more often to cover up (but that creates new problems too).

Good stuff, but also sort by "first downs by penalty." The Bills' D leads the league in that category, and not in the good way.

[34-78-83]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Good stuff, but also sort by "first downs by penalty." The Bills' D leads the league in that category, and not in the good way.

no doubt! It has felt that way but I never looked at that one. That's a shame. Kept 2 Colts drives going yesterday that were stopped when the game was still in the balance.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

#1 in pressure rate could explain much of that. See my post ^^

The Bills have also given up the least yards after catch in the league. Basically, their pass D is great. Before the game yesterday, I said they'd need to put up 35 points simply to force the Colts to pass. Didn't happen, and that's why the Colts could do what they did.

[Solomon Grundy]

I still say adding Geno Atkins at the beginning of season and letting Butler walk would’ve been a better move. Butler is having the same impact as Atkins right now and he’s not even in the league