4 Current Players already deserve to be on Bills All-time team!

[The Frankish Reich]

32 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

Don't devalue the prestige of winning a Championship because the name or league structure or place in time. That team and those players received rings and a Championship trophy just like the teams of the current era. 

Of course. Winning a championship is a great achievement in any major sports league, which is what the AFL was by the mid-60s. But if there hadn’t been a merger we’d speak a little differently about the Bills championship teams of the 90s ….

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

18 hours ago, JY422 said:

I think we can make the case that there are 4 current players who already belong in the top 3 at their positions on the all-time Bills team. 

 

There are a few other current players who will likely be added to this list but their sample size is too small at this point. (Either for lack of time spent with the Bills, i.e. Stef Diggs, or because they are just coming into their own, i.e. Tre Edmunds, Tyler Bass & Dawson Knox.) 

 

here is my complete list by tiers:

 

Tier One: (Already top 3 at their respective positions)

Allen, White, Poyer, Hyde

perhaps Dawkins belongs in there with the above 4 but I think he still needs a breakout year or two first. 

 

Tier Two: (current trajectory has them in Tier One with another excellent season or two)

Diggs, Dawkins, Bass, Edmunds, Milano, Bease

 

Tier Three: (young bucks who have flashed enough to warrant discussion in another couple years)

Gave Davis, Spencer Brown, Rousseau, Oliver, Taron Johnson. 
 

As I think about all this it pulls me in two directions: 

 

“Optimist”

wow, what a roster Beane & McD have assembled. Not only players, but coaches as well. 

 

“Pessimist”

wow, the Bills have not had very many packed rosters with great players in their 61 year history. 
 

Of course, if this team is the one who brings the Lombardi to Orchard Park then all bets are off and all 53 players are elevated to tier one “legendary” status!! Legendary!

Interesting topic! I think your tier 1 picks are likely on the money. After that, who knows? Bass and Diggs both seem like they're on the right trajectory. Good post

[Beast]

OP, did you just start watching football last season?

[NoHuddleKelly12]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

Allen is the best QB the Bills have ever had. The rest of them? nah.

Even as one of Allen’s most strident apologists around here, I still have to get another few years of sustained excellence and deep playoff runs before just giving him that mantle—that disclaimer aside, he is without any doubt on that trajectory, and already eclipses the others on raw athleticism/talent ceiling…did I just hedge my bets enough? 

Edited November 17, 2021 by NoHuddleKelly12

[Mikie2times]

10 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Of course. Winning a championship is a great achievement in any major sports league, which is what the AFL was by the mid-60s. But if there hadn’t been a merger we’d speak a little differently about the Bills championship teams of the 90s ….

I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64.  I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills.

 

Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh.     

 

 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, KzooMike said:

I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64.  I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills.

 

Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh.     

 

 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm

Good points. And there’s actually 2 different points here:

- was the AFL on par with the NFL c. 1965? Your Browns AAFC example is interesting. But the historical record suggests that the NFL overall had a talent edge over the AFL right up until the end of the decade. The Jets beating the Colts was kind of a fluke. The Chiefs beating the Vikes the next year wasn’t. It evened out quickly by the time of the merger. I was an old ABA basketball fan and I got into a lot of little kid arguments about the ABA vs the NBA. But even I have to admit the ABA got close to the quality of the NBA before it collapsed, but it always was just a bit behind. 
- are today’s players on average superior to those in the old AFL? This one is easier: yes. Period. Bigger, stronger, faster, better coached. Would certain AFL era greats still be great today? Absolutely. Would Jack Kemp be a “franchise QB” today? I doubt it. 

[Pete]

19 hours ago, JY422 said:

I think we can make the case that there are 4 current players who already belong in the top 3 at their positions on the all-time Bills team. 

 

There are a few other current players who will likely be added to this list but their sample size is too small at this point. (Either for lack of time spent with the Bills, i.e. Stef Diggs, or because they are just coming into their own, i.e. Tre Edmunds, Tyler Bass & Dawson Knox.) 

 

here is my complete list by tiers:

 

Tier One: (Already top 3 at their respective positions)

Allen, White, Poyer, Hyde

perhaps Dawkins belongs in there with the above 4 but I think he still needs a breakout year or two first. 

 

Tier Two: (current trajectory has them in Tier One with another excellent season or two)

Diggs, Dawkins, Bass, Edmunds, Milano, Bease

 

Tier Three: (young bucks who have flashed enough to warrant discussion in another couple years)

Gave Davis, Spencer Brown, Rousseau, Oliver, Taron Johnson. 
 

As I think about all this it pulls me in two directions: 

 

“Optimist”

wow, what a roster Beane & McD have assembled. Not only players, but coaches as well. 

 

“Pessimist”

wow, the Bills have not had very many packed rosters with great players in their 61 year history. 
 

Of course, if this team is the one who brings the Lombardi to Orchard Park then all bets are off and all 53 players are elevated to tier one “legendary” status!! Legendary!

What is your opinion of Robert James?

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/all-time-team-cb-preview-431377

[Pete]

Butch Byrd (1964-70)
One of the first physical cornerbacks in pro football, Byrd was an expert at re-routing receivers.

A five-time AFL All-Star, Byrd still holds the team's all-time record for interceptions in a career with 40, compiling that total in just seven seasons. 

Byrd was also a dangerous returner as evidenced by his 74-yard punt return for a touchdown in the 1965 AFL Championship game.

"He was one of the first big cornerbacks," said former teammate Harry Jacobs. "He was probably the guy that brought every other DB up on top of everyone to knock receivers around a little bit."

Mario Clark (1976-1983)
A former first-round pick, Clark was named to the NFL's All-Rookie team in 1976 as he stepped into the starting lineup right away for the Bills.

His second season with Buffalo would be one of Clark's best as he posted a career-high seven interceptions and a fumble recovery. Clark had 25 interceptions in his eight seasons with Buffalo.

"He was always scanning the field," said former Bills receiver and teammate Jerry Butler. "He'd pretend he was looking at you, but the whole time he was looking at the backfield. It was amazing how he was able to cover you and see the field at the same time. You couldn't get him to bite or trick him on a lot of things."

Nate Clements (2001-2006)
Another former first-round draft choice, Clements was an instant impact starter for the Bills and became the first player in team history to lead the team in interceptions for four consecutive seasons.
A Pro Bowl selection in 2004, Clements also holds the team record for most returns for touchdowns with five by interception and two on punt return. 

He's best remembered for his three interception game in 2002, including one that he took back 29 yards for a touchdown to break a 10-10 tie in a 23-10 victory over Miami (Oct. 20).

Booker Edgerson (1962-1969)
A college sprinter and long jumper, Booker Edgerson applied those skills well when it came to covering some of the AFL's most prolific wide receivers.

Edgerson was often given the assignment of covering the opponent's best receiver. Stepping in as a rookie starter, Edgerson had two interceptions in his very first game against Hall of Fame quarterback George Blanda and made the AFL All-Rookie team.

An AFL All-Star in 1965, Edgerson had 23 interceptions in his career, two of which he returned for touchdowns. 

"Booker was always up there and strong on the press," said former teammate Harry Jacobs. "Booker wasn't big, but he had the speed that allowed him to stay with his guy all the way down the field."

Robert James (1969-1974)
A former defensive end at tiny Fisk College, Robert James made a seamless transition to cornerback in the pros.

Using his rare physical strength to manhandle wideouts James was selected to three Pro Bowls in a career cut short by injury. He also earned back-to-back first team All-Pro honors in 1973 and 1974.

He's also a member of the Bills Wall of Fame.

"Lou Saban said he may have been the best football player he ever coached and he only played six years," said former teammate Joe DeLamielleure. "They actually probably changed the (defensive contact) rules because of him. He'd get so close to guys and play man to man on everybody. He had the strength of a defensive lineman and the speed of a corner."

Nate Odomes (1987-1993)
Odomes was one of Buffalo's more productive cornerbacks, and had some of his best seasons during the Bills' early 90's Super Bowl runs.

The former second-round pick earned a pair of Pro Bowl selections in 1992 and 1993 and led the league in interceptions with nine in his last season with Buffalo. 

He's best remembered for his overtime interception in the 'Comeback Game' against Houston in the 1992 AFC Wild Card contest that led to Steve Christie's game-winning field goal (41-38).

Charlie Romes (1977-1986)
This former 12th-round pick carved out a pretty good career for himself playing 10 seasons for the Bills and finishing fourth on the team's all-time list in interceptions with 28.

Romes posted a career-high seven interceptions in 1985, and had 16 over his last three seasons in Buffalo.

"I thought he was a great man-to-man press coverage type corner," said former teammate Jerry Butler. "I used to try little moves and techniques against him (in practice) and by doing that we were both able to perfect our games more and step it up."

Antoine Winfield (1999-2003)
Pound for pound Winfield was one of the most physical cornerbacks in team history. Despite standing just 5'8" Winfield was one of the surest tacklers on the edge for Buffalo.

Winfield became the first cornerback in team history to lead the team in tackles with 106 in 2001. In 2003 he'd set a career high in tackles with 124, good for third on the team while also leading the squad in tackles for loss that year.

He had six interceptions in his four seasons with the Bills.

This article has been reproduced in a new format and may be missing content or contain faulty links. Please use the Contact Us link in our site footer to report an issue.

[oldmanfan]

4 hours ago, MJS said:

You forgot Dubenion for receivers, but spot on with everything else.

I went back and forth on Duby.  Another guy that deserved mention was Bobby Chandler.

[Mikie2times]

46 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Good points. And there’s actually 2 different points here:

- was the AFL on par with the NFL c. 1965? Your Browns AAFC example is interesting. But the historical record suggests that the NFL overall had a talent edge over the AFL right up until the end of the decade. The Jets beating the Colts was kind of a fluke. The Chiefs beating the Vikes the next year wasn’t. It evened out quickly by the time of the merger. I was an old ABA basketball fan and I got into a lot of little kid arguments about the ABA vs the NBA. But even I have to admit the ABA got close to the quality of the NBA before it collapsed, but it always was just a bit behind. 
- are today’s players on average superior to those in the old AFL? This one is easier: yes. Period. Bigger, stronger, faster, better coached. Would certain AFL era greats still be great today? Absolutely. Would Jack Kemp be a “franchise QB” today? I doubt it. 

Great post, this is one of those eternal debates but clearly you have really good perspective on it. I 100% agree with the Jets/Colts and Chiefs/Vikes. I guess we will really never know. Really different styles in the AFL as well, in my opinion more forward thinking than the NFL at that time, perhaps as result of less risk being felt to go outside the grain. Also some fantastic uniforms. Buffalo's were obviously great, Chargers, several others. The 60's was a really interesting era in Pro Football, 50's as well. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I’m taking Taking Bass over any bills kicker ever. Christie can back him up 

[lookylookyherecomescookie]

7 hours ago, KzooMike said:

I think the OP missed on the way this should have been presented (I'm not dogging you OP it is a good question just confusing). Some are looking at it more like a single season, others are looking at it as far as a career and body of work, then others looking at it like pure talent.

 

As an example, I would I take 2020 Diggs against any season James Lofton had AS A BILL, but not any in his career nor for his career and body of work.

 

I also can't discount Andre Reed, Eric Mould's, or Elbert Dubenion  career body work as a Bill compared to Diggs. 

 

I also think you have to look at performance relative to pears, well, if that's how you choose to look at it. Obviously any modern athlete is superior, is that how we want to look at this? I really don't know if that's a fair look. That said if this is a Bills list, I feel the standard should be both career and body of work as a Bill. At which point, nobody on our roster could be eligible yet. Some are inching closer. So the question would become who likely can it be? Which really becomes interesting because it's impacted by how good we have been at some positions historically as well as your future outlook of our roster. We are likely furthest away at RB and probably DE, just because Bruce was an all timer. He goes on every list, not just Bills lists. Then we have nobody close to OJ or Thurman.   

OJ, then Thurman, then Cookie

[BillsFan692]

23 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's not that the board that's not sure about Edmunds. It's that he's got a small group of haters that want a Dick Butkus in the middle. They don't get it and won't be convinced.

 

Having said that, Edmunds would be running up against Sam Cowart, Takeo, Shane Conlan and a bunch others before you even consider the real old-timers like Stratton. Way too early to have this conversation for him and for nearly everyone in OP's post, though Poyer and Hyde might be a pretty reasonable thought and Allen certainly looks like in a couple of years he'll be in there as well.

 

Other than Hughes, nobody's been here more than four and a half years and the first year or two didn't look good. Too early.

Uh sorry guy but Allen is definitely already at the top #1 best ever. If he is taking a second seat to anyone its Jim Kelly and thats it. If he gets the chip then he will officially dethrone kelly

[Nelius]

Piling on and saying the original post is sorely missing Mr. Jerry Hughes Jr.

 

The actual connective tissue from the drought to the playoffs, and he's still making plays. Might even get a ring. First ballot all Bills everything.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Nelius

[Mikie2times]

To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer.

 

With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG.

 

These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly.

 

Enjoy

 

QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen

Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly

 

RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs

*Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold.

 

WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans

*Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold

 

TE: Ernie Warlick

*Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable.

 

OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw

*Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30

 

DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington

*Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list

 

LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds

*Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met

 

DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes

*Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5

 

Top 10

 

1.       OJ Simpson RB

2.       Bruce Smith DL

3.       Jim Kelly QB

4.       Tom Sestak DL

5.       Butch Byrd DB

6.       Thurman Thomas RB

7.       Joe Cribbs RB

8.       Mario Williams DL

9.       Shane Conlan LB

10.     Cornelius Bennett

 

#11 Would have been Josh Allen

Edited November 18, 2021 by KzooMike

[Rico]

25 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer.

 

With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG.

 

These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly.

 

Enjoy

 

QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen

Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly

 

RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs

*Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold.

 

WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans

*Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold

 

TE: Ernie Warlick

*Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable.

 

OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw

*Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30

 

DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington

*Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list

 

LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds

*Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met

 

DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes

*Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5

 

Top 10

 

1.       OJ Simpson RB

2.       Bruce Smith DL

3.       Jim Kelly QB

4.       Tom Sestak DL

5.       Butch Byrd DB

6.       Thurman Thomas RB

7.       Joe Cribbs RB

8.       Mario Williams DL

9.       Shane Conlan LB

10.     Cornelius Bennett

 

#11 Would have been Josh Allen

Nice work & list, but I’m not buying Shane Conlan at #9, vastly overrated. If I were to make my all-time Bills roster, he’d be well on the outside looking in.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rico

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, Rico said:

Nice work & list, but I’m not buying Shane Conlan at #9, vastly overrated. 

Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias. 

[Rico]

2 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias. 

I do like Nate Clements getting honorable mention, with Lil Antoine not in the conversation…. and Dion Dawkins not in the top 30 sounds right to me.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rico

[Rochesterfan]

Just shift the focus of the OP post.  Instead of 4 guys competing for the All-Time Bill’s team - which is just a bit early on any of these players. 
 

Drop it down a few notches.  Those 4 players are all striving toward Wall of Fame status.  
 

Something that is given for both team play and individual play - along with being fan favorites.

 

Most WOF’ers are all time greats, but you have guys like Phil Hansen, Joe Ferguson, and maybe Fred Smerlas up there that are good players during their time, but none are all time greats for long periods with the Bills.  Some had personality, some had longevity, and some were just the best player during a bad period of time.

 

I think with a few more good years several of these guys could be eventual WOF guys - even without being all time greats and some like Allen, White, and Bass might make cases as All Time Bills team stars.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[GunnerBill]

So I can't go deep into the annuls like some of the old guys.... you know, like @Gugny, but if I was putting together my all Bills team of my fandom (since 2002) then starters from the current team I have:

 

Offense - Josh Allen (QB) and Stefon Diggs (WR)

Defense - Hyde (FS), Poyer (SS), White (CB) and Taron Johnson (NCB)

 

I'm close on Tyler Bass, maybe by the end of the year I'll be willing to go there. I'd actually have Dan Carpenter as my kicker, because while his last season here when he fell out with Rex and his leg seemed to go was a bit of a mess he had three years over 85% and made some clutch kicks for us on a team that got into scoring position much less frequently than the current team. I think Bass is very much on his way to that spot in my team but for now I'd just edge to Dan for that reason. 

 

The other one I'm close on strangely enough is Dawson Knox. That says more about the Bills history of Tight End play than it does about him, but he is the first Bills tight end I have ever thought of as a weapon. At the moment Scott Chandler has that spot in my team. That says it all. 

 

Offense

QB - Josh Allen

RB - Fred Jackson

WR - Eric Moulds

WR - Stefon Diggs

WR - Stevie Johnson

TE - Scott Chandler

LT - Cordy Glenn

LG - Andy Levitre

C - Eric Wood

RG - Richie Incognito

RT - Jason Peters

 

(I'm cheating a bit on the line because Glenn and Peters are the best two tackles and really they are both LTs and Levitre and Richie are the best two guards and really were both LGs. But In his first spell Richie played some RG for us and in his first season in the starting lineup Peters played RT, so it allows me to get them both in. Constructing a good oline is worryingly difficult). 

 

Defense

DE Mario Williams

DT Kyle Williams

DT Marcel Dareus

DE Aaron Schobel 

MLB London Fletcher

WLB Takeo Spikes

NCB Taron Johnson

CB Tre White

CB Stephon Gilmore

FS Micah Hyde

SS Jordan Poyer

 

Special Teams

K - Dan Carpenter

P - Brian Moorman

Edited November 18, 2021 by GunnerBill