Calling all RB and OL Gurus, Your Input Please

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I agree with Eric Wood that they should use an inside zone blocking scheme.    They do not have the athleticism to excel in outside zone,   the inside zone approach like the Bills used under Roman/Lynn works better when you have bigger and less athletic OL.    

 

Outside zone is why they signed Forrest Lamp and had John Feliciano trim down........to make them more athletic at OG for the OZ.   But it's not like the reserves were well suited in the event that they had to play.    

 

It's more than just mental errors,  they just aren't good at it and their best back........Singletary.........is not well suited to it.    It's kind of funny when you think about it.........they signed two players.......who had disappointed their previous teams.......to basically minimum deals (Lamp and Breida) who were likely going to be keys to making outside zone work. 

 

Leaving aside the question of what run plays/run blocking scheme they're actually trying to run in general:

1) Are they actually trying to run an outside zone play there?  Different people here seem to be seeing it differently.  What are you seeing that you key on to identify an attempt to block an outside zone run?

 

I look at that play and have flashbacks to 2018 when I would watch all-22 of run plays and wind up begging people for help "WTF are they even trying to do here?"

 

2) Did the team actually ask Jon Feliciano to trim down?  My understanding is that he said the team did NOT ask it, it was his/his agent's idea.  Never a good thing for a line player (OL or DL) to decide on his own to do a major re-sculpt of his bod.

[Sugar High JA17]

We need him to get our weak OL stronger...Live up to your title

[Big Blitz]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

 

 

I'll say this about this play to - Sweeney's block is kinda half ***ed - looks like he'd rather be doing anything other then run blocking.   

 

 

OG

RB

TE 2 

 

Those are this team's biggest needs.  

 

We're all frustrated because they could have easily been addressed in an offseason where they supposedly addressed the run game.  

 

At least Spencer Brown looks like a stud.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Big Blitz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Big Blitz said:

I'll say this about this play to - Sweeney's block is kinda half ***ed - looks like he'd rather be doing anything other then run blocking.   

OG

RB

TE 2 

Those are this team's biggest needs.  

 

We're all frustrated because they could have easily been addressed in an offseason where they supposedly addressed the run game. 

 

Could they?  How and with whom?

 

Pretty clear that Beane's first priority was pass rush

[Big Blitz]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Could they?  How and with whom?

 

Pretty clear that Beane's first priority was pass rush

 

 

The Browns found Wyatt Teller for cheap - yes I think we just weren't looking.  Guards should be out there in May - August. 

 

We had Hollister.  

 

I'm not saying those should have been top priorities but absolutely priorities.  

[starrymessenger]

Never having played the game I’m more than a little hesitant to comment on the technical aspects of o-line play but I don’t see how these two play calls/design are at all comparable and if that is correct it helps, I think, confirm Hapless’ conclusion. There is optionality in the Colts play to where the back is meant, based on what he sees, to cut to the middle of the field (the more probable outcome and what actually happened) or take it outside if the WR has somehow managed to clear a path. No such decision is called for in the Bills play call. Motor never even looks to his left. I think he’s meant to hit the B (or C) gap quickly. Its a zone stretch where given the position of the last defensive lineman on the outside of Feliciano Motor’s read , and the place where the hole was supposed to be, was between Ford and Feliciano. Maybe that’s why Dawkins appears to give up. I get that the LG should have combod to help Dawkins but I thought Dion could still have laid into him better. Anyway the play design and the runners read in no way called for him to cut to the backside.
if Reed had done as well as his line mates the Colts back would have had even more daylight.

So nice to see well executed o-line play.

Edited November 12, 2021 by starrymessenger

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Leaving aside the question of what run plays/run blocking scheme they're actually trying to run in general:

1) Are they actually trying to run an outside zone play there?  Different people here seem to be seeing it differently.  What are you seeing that you key on to identify an attempt to block an outside zone run?

 

I look at that play and have flashbacks to 2018 when I would watch all-22 of run plays and wind up begging people for help "WTF are they even trying to do here?"

 

2) Did the team actually ask Jon Feliciano to trim down?  My understanding is that he said the team did NOT ask it, it was his/his agent's idea.  Never a good thing for a line player (OL or DL) to decide on his own to do a major re-sculpt of his bod.

 

 

1)  Yes it is OZ.........the lateral first step by OL is the indicator that it is outside zone blocking play.   Inside zone will be characterized by some immediate drive blocks where the OL steps right into the DL at the snap.   

 

2) I don't know if the team asked him to trim down but I'm sure they told him they were going to stick with the OZ attack in 2021.    The little bit of outside talent they brought in for the running game was OZ compatible.

[BillsVet]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I agree with Eric Wood that they should use an inside zone blocking scheme.    They do not have the athleticism to excel in outside zone,   the inside zone approach like the Bills used under Roman/Lynn works better when you have bigger and less athletic OL.    

 

Outside zone is why they signed Forrest Lamp and had John Feliciano trim down........to make them more athletic at OG for the OZ.   But it's not like the reserves were well suited in the event that they had to play.    

 

It's more than just mental errors,  they just aren't good at it and their best back........Singletary.........is not well suited to it.    It's kind of funny when you think about it.........they signed two players.......who had disappointed their previous teams.......to basically minimum deals (Lamp and Breida) who were likely going to be keys to making outside zone work. 

 

McD is the big voice in roster construction...which makes me leery that anyone is minding the store on how to build an offense around Josh.  I'll go a step further and say the HC, after 4+ seasons, still doesn't get offense.  If anything, he's still abdicating that side of the ball to Daboll.   

 

And of course, McD continues to go after defenders at positions which are nice to have, but not essential like WLB and that 8-9 man DL.  

 

Which leads to Beane, who didn't come up the personnel ranks.  The only one in the room left to assist in identifying the offensive scheme at a high(er) management level is Daboll and I don't see him strategically being a reliable voice.  There are too many in-game decisions for me to believe he's suited to this function.  

 

Point is...I really don't know out of McD, Beane, and Daboll how they're aligning offensive personnel to scheme.  Because McD is still favoring defensive personnel acquisition over offense, Daboll is well, Daboll and Beane just seems to provide the players McD wants.  And I don't see McD changing his spots. 

[letsgoteam]

During training camp before Lamp got hurt, how was he looking? For what it's worth he is currently on the Saints PS. 

[tylerbillsfan33]

On 11/10/2021 at 9:14 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

I agree with you.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, letsgoteam said:

During training camp before Lamp got hurt, how was he looking? For what it's worth he is currently on the Saints PS. 

 

We really have no idea - he basically got hurt very early on

 

We can’t resign him until 6 weeks after the end of his injury settlement.  So if he had a 4 week injury settlement, that would be next week I guess (though I’m not sure about the nuances)

[letsgoteam]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We really have no idea - he basically got hurt very early on

 

We can’t resign him until 6 weeks after the end of his injury settlement.  So if he had a 4 week injury settlement, that would be next week I guess (though I’m not sure about the nuances)

Thanks I couldn't remember the time line of his injury, etc, etc.

 

I do remember Sal C. mentioning that he wouldnt be surprised if Lamp could crack the starting lineup/compete early on in the spring leading up to training camp (or whenever it was before he got hurt). 

[MJS]

How are those plays even similar at all? In one there is a huge hole to cut back into. In the other there are two defenders sprinting towards Singletary in the cutback lane.

 

Someone thought there was a hole there?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

How are those plays even similar at all? In one there is a huge hole to cut back into. In the other there are two defenders sprinting towards Singletary in the cutback lane.

 

Someone thought there was a hole there?

 
Yes

[Bob in STL]

The problem is the LG Boettger not helping the LT (Dawkins) with the guy in the gap.  
 

Very similar mistake was made by LG Feliciano on that fateful QB sneak versus Titans.  
 

Dawkins cannot make that block on the DL in the gap when the DL is going towards the middle, he needs LG to chip. 
 

Root cause could be any of these -  Bad read and bad line calls? Poor talent and line play by OGs?  Poor Coaching and preparation?  

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Bob in STL

[Jerome007]

Super video analysis as always by Cover1. The point about the RPO is quite a good one too. That's for run blocking. Extra blocker could help for the run plays, but of course also for pass protection. Daboll has to gameplan to give the OL some help a lot of times, in non predictable ways.