Calling all RB and OL Gurus, Your Input Please

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

 

 

I'm hardly a guru, but you don't have to be to see what's happening there.

 

Whoever you're arguing with doesn't quite get it.

 

Yeah, #95 for the Jags has scootched past his block and is headed right towards that hole. If Singletary cuts there he just loses a few more yards than he did.

 

The Colts hole has nobody unblocked.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Thurman#1

[HardyBoy]

34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

IMO, Singletary, from the snap, is headed to the hole between RG and RT. He would have had to make the cut pretty quickly and, even if he had, there is no way he makes that cutback without getting crushed before he could even get in the hole. You can see the difference with the Colts' back, as he is headed almost straight into the line and only has to make a slight cut to take advantage of a huge hole (incidentally, the Colts back fails to see the secondary hole. He could have cut slightly to his right and picked up more yardage). IMO, Singletary is focused on the hole he is supposed to go through. If he does see the hole to cut back, then he also has to see the defender closing that hole up.

 

I don't blame this play on Dawkins. The defender is lined up on Boettger's outside shoulder and, to me, there is no way Dawkins is going to be able to get in front of him and block him. Dawkins moves straight to his right and the defender (who only has to move toward the backfield) already has the inside position. The only way this play works is for Boettger to chip the defender before he moves on to blocking the linebacker. That would have allowed Singletary to hit the hole between RG and RT cleanly.

 

If Singletary had hit the hole cleanly, it really wouldn't have mattered, because, again IMO, Ford didn't get his job done properly. Williams kicks out the left end (who has to contain), Morse gets outside the DT and pushes him back, and Ford is supposed to block the LB. Instead of moving forward to meet the LB and move him back, Ford moves laterally. He doesn't even get a half yard off the line of scrimmage before contact with the LB. By not moving forward more quickly, he allows the LB to get outside of him by the time contact is made, which closes the hole.

 

Great play on the defender's part to get inside of Dawkins and move down the line to make the tackle. Not so great communication between Bottger and Dawkins in how to handle the defender given where he lined up at. Bad play by Ford all the way around.

 

 

You don't think he might have seen the unblocked defender and decided cutting right into him would be a mistake?

[SoCal Deek]

I’m no expert on O Line play but what I see is that this particular run is blown by the RIGHT TACKLE completely missing his block at the point of attack. Sure, there’s penetration on the back side, but that’s not where the play gets bottled up. It’s typical that someone’s going to be chasing down the RB from behind, but what you’re counting on is for your RB to already be through to the second level before the backside defender gets there. The RG does his job and gets to the LB. The RT however loses containment and his defender gets straight to the RB.

Edited November 11, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[MasterStrategist]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

Not sure if anyone said this yet or not (didn't read all posts)..

 

But Jags were blitzing a def back from the backside, so it allowed the 3-tech DT freedom to crash inside (knowing he has a DE and DB containing the edge/outside gaps).

 

Can't compare the Bills vs Colts stretch run bc of that.

 

In addition, this is the exact reason I can't stand Dabolls playcalling right now.  We go under center and teams are sending an extra blitzer, we should be countering that with downfield passes/screens. 

 

When was the last time we countered a blitz with a deep sideline pass?  We are too predictable this year on offense, that's on Daboll and also Josh to make the right read/get us into the best play.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Stop me if you have heard this one before, Dawkins allows his man to get across his face and make the play. Colts LT held his block and forced his man outside. Come one Dion, we need you brother. 

 

 

Getting across his face means the guy started on one side of the OL and ends up on the other. That's not what happens.

 

#95 was lined up far inside Dawkins. His helmet isn't across even from Dawkins' shoulder pads, hell, no part of either of their bodies is across from any part of the other guy's body. The DL, #95, is way inside. There are only two ways Dawkins could make that play. One is if Boettger hits #95 before he rubs past to get to the LB, and the other is if #95 for some reason comes straight forward, allowing Dawkins to catch him, but instead #95 was going away from Dawkins from instant one and Boettger didn't hit him, delay him and rub.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Thurman#1

[billsfan1959]

24 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

You don't think he might have seen the unblocked defender and decided cutting right into him would be a mistake?

 

To me, it doesn't matter whether or not he saw the defender (which, BTW, I think he did). That doesn't change my analysis. IMO, the play was designed to go between RG and RT and tha was where he was headed the entire time. 

 

6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Getting across his face means the guy started on one side of the OL and ends up on the other. That's not what happens.

 

95 was lined up far inside Dawkins. His helmet isn't across even from Dawkins' shoulder pads, hell, no part of either of their bodies is across from any part. The guy is way inside. There are only two ways Dawkins could make that play. One is if Boettger hits #95 before he rubs past to get to the LB, and the other is if #5 for some reason comes straight forward, allowing Dawkins to catch him, but instead #95 was going away from Dawkins from instant one and Boettger didn't hit him, delay him and rub.

 

Agree completely. There is no way Dawkins comes close to blocking the defender, unless Boettger chips him first. Even then, I'm not sure it would have allowed Dawkins to get inside of defender, but it would have slowed the him from getting down the line.

Edited November 11, 2021 by billsfan1959

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Pirate Angel said:

Josh is under center and he turns his back to the defense. We are in the gun, have spread formations, and dont utilize play action. So when the defensive line sees this it allows them to swarm. Was the Jacksonville crowd so loud that Dawkins couldnt use it to his advantage? Was the LG suppose to chip him and peel off? The DT accros from him was inside gap and didnt penetrate the gap first he ran straight towards the ball carrier. Not playing it honest tells me he had a pretty good guess where the ball was going or it was a good defensive call.

 

 

We do utilize play action a fair amount.

 

Not enough? That's a fair argument. But sometimes.

 

On Oct. 21, Gaughan wrote: "So far this season, the Bills are using play action on 32% of pass plays, according to Buffalo News charts, still a high percentage."

 

https://buffalonews.com/playaction-newsletter-oct-21-2021-bills-offense-works-to-sell-the-run/article_74d9e88e-3265-11ec-9f03-837cacc31f21.html

 

 

[billsfan1959]

29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m no expert on O Line play but what I see is that this particular run is blown by the RIGHT TACKLE completely missing his block at the point of attack. Sure, there’s penetration on the back side, but that’s not where the play gets bottled up. It’s typical that someone’s going to be chasing down the RB from behind, but what you’re counting on is for your RB to already be through to the second level before the backside defender gets there. The RG does his job and gets to the LB. The RT however loses containment and his defender gets straight to the RB.

 

The end has containment and Williams naturally blocks him out and then back. Singletary should have been by him and into the hole before he could make a play. Except, there was no hole as Singletary ran into the back of Ford, who couldn't move even a yard off the line of scrimmage to block the LB. Instead, he moves laterally and lets the LB come to him. And, IMO, the backside defender did a great job getting down the line to meet Singletary.

[Ramza86]

Dawkins made that impossible for Singletary to do anything besides what he did without losing 4 yards.

[hondo in seattle]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

 

I agree with your assessment completely.   In fact, as I  watched it the thought that went through my head was, "The Colt back has a hole the size of Kansas." 

 

Motor had nothing.  

 

 

[Big74Mac]

The guy we need to give a shot too is Antonio. Why not and what do we have to lose. 

[Figster]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

How come most every opponent's Dline gets much more disruption than ours?

Most offensive lines are not great.  Colts have one of better lines.  Quentin Nelson is why you draft a G high and pay them

It seems that way in comparison to the Bills Oline.  The Bills Oline doesn't run block or pass protect well. It almost forces the Buffalo Bills to change their big play identity. To avoid the risk of getting Josh Allen injured in the process. Its an evolving league and the Bills have to evolve with it. As a team you like to do what you can do best. When what you do best isn't good enough anymore its time for a change. Poor Oline play dictates as much IMO.  

Edited November 11, 2021 by Figster

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Getting across his face means the guy started on one side of the OL and ends up on the other. That's not what happens.

 

#95 was lined up far inside Dawkins. His helmet isn't across even from Dawkins' shoulder pads, hell, no part of either of their bodies is across from any part of the other guy's body. The DL, #95, is way inside. There are only two ways Dawkins could make that play. One is if Boettger hits #95 before he rubs past to get to the LB, and the other is if #95 for some reason comes straight forward, allowing Dawkins to catch him, but instead #95 was going away from Dawkins from instant one and Boettger didn't hit him, delay him and rub.

 

Good description explaining why folks upthread are saying no way could Dawkins make that block

 

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Dawkins made that impossible for Singletary to do anything besides what he did without losing 4 yards.

 

That one is not on Dawkins, it's on Boettger for not getting a piece of the guy lined up across from him and passing him to Dawkins before going out to the next level.

 

But it's this kind of thing that makes me question the value of, for example, PFF's offensive line grades.  Who are the people grading these lines and how much do they really understand about NFL level protection calls?  Even people who know something can disagree about what's really going on (see this thread - misread by Boettger vs. wrong protection call for the run etc.)

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

The end has containment and Williams naturally blocks him out and then back. Singletary should have been by him and into the hole before he could make a play. Except, there was no hole as Singletary ran into the back of Ford, who couldn't move even a yard off the line of scrimmage to block the LB. Instead, he moves laterally and lets the LB come to him. And, IMO, the backside defender did a great job getting down the line to meet Singletary.

Wow. I’m not seeing that at all. Williams slips or stumbles and let’s his man crash down right into the RB. Ford does his job. Gets to the LB and pushes him outside. I’ve replayed this at least a dozen times frame by frame. The screw up was our RT. 

[billsfan1959]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Wow. I’m not seeing that at all. Williams slips or stumbles and let’s his man crash down right into the RB. Ford does his job. Gets to the LB and pushes him outside. I’ve replayed this at least a dozen times frame by frame. The screw up was our RT. 

Honestly, I don’t know how you see that. To me, it looks like the play is supposed to go between the RG and RT. If so, why in the world would Ford block his man to the outside? He was supposed to seal him off to the inside, as Morse did with his man.

[Scott7975]

There is no hole there.  The obvious reason is the free rusher bearing down in Singletary.  The other reason is #90 isn't really engaged and would also make the tackle. This is nothing like the "hole" in the Colts play.

 

I also keep seeing in a lot of threads people saying we should run more play action.  The Bills actually do run a lot of play action.  The line also has to protect longer on those plays which is counter productive because this line sucks.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Scott7975

[Ramza86]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good description explaining why folks upthread are saying no way could Dawkins make that block

 

 

That one is not on Dawkins, it's on Boettger for not getting a piece of the guy lined up across from him and passing him to Dawkins before going out to the next level.

 

But it's this kind of thing that makes me question the value of, for example, PFF's offensive line grades.  Who are the people grading these lines and how much do they really understand about NFL level protection calls?  Even people who know something can disagree about what's really going on (see this thread - misread by Boettger vs. wrong protection call for the run etc.)

 

So who is supposed to block the person that beat Dawkins? Because I dont see how anything happens on that play as long as he gets inside like that

 

What does the play look like successfully in your mind?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

 

So who is supposed to block the person that beat Dawkins? Because I dont see how anything happens on that play as long as he gets inside like that

 

What does the play look like successfully in your mind?

If you watch the Colts clip immediately

afterwards you see a combo block between the backside guard and tackle where the guard reaches and stabs the DT to give the tackle time to get across and flip his hips to make the block. 
 

that’s how you zone block, at least in my experience. I have no idea what the bills were trying to do there but I don’t think it was a zone scheme.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

A couple of us were having an argument in the Shoutbox about this play.  One person who shall remain nameless contends that Singletary had a hole to cut into, seen at 4s just after handoff, and that Singletary sucks because he doesn't make a nice cut as the Colts RB does, into said hole.

 

 

I contend that what they see as a hole is because Dawkins defender is already in the backfield charging towards Singletary, and all that trying to cut into that open space would accomplish is let that cat get his mitts on him faster.

 

In contrast, the Colts back has a hole the size of the State of Indiana to cut into.

 

Also I agree with this:

 

Your input please

 

@Buffalo716, anyone else?

 

 

I agree with Eric Wood that they should use an inside zone blocking scheme.    They do not have the athleticism to excel in outside zone,   the inside zone approach like the Bills used under Roman/Lynn works better when you have bigger and less athletic OL.    

 

Outside zone is why they signed Forrest Lamp and had John Feliciano trim down........to make them more athletic at OG for the OZ.   But it's not like the reserves were well suited in the event that they had to play.    

 

It's more than just mental errors,  they just aren't good at it and their best back........Singletary.........is not well suited to it.    It's kind of funny when you think about it.........they signed two players.......who had disappointed their previous teams.......to basically minimum deals (Lamp and Breida) who were likely going to be keys to making outside zone work. 

[atlbillsfan1975]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Getting across his face means the guy started on one side of the OL and ends up on the other. That's not what happens.

 

#95 was lined up far inside Dawkins. His helmet isn't across even from Dawkins' shoulder pads, hell, no part of either of their bodies is across from any part of the other guy's body. The DL, #95, is way inside. There are only two ways Dawkins could make that play. One is if Boettger hits #95 before he rubs past to get to the LB, and the other is if #95 for some reason comes straight forward, allowing Dawkins to catch him, but instead #95 was going away from Dawkins from instant one and Boettger didn't hit him, delay him and rub.

Wrong terminology by me. I apologize, after watching it on a larger screen I see the breakdown in large part due to Ike’s failure to engage long enough to allow Dion to get in position to take the block over. 
I am trying to remember, can Dion cut block there? It appears they are within a yard of the line of scrimmage, so this  was a legal block at one point. If so, this could have been an option for Dion on the DT. Another option is to take the DT further down the line, using the DT’s momentum. Dion got caught trying to do what was diagramed while his guard did not. 
What this points out for me ultimately is just how critical it is to have a consistent line. You can get by with average talent on the line if they are all working together.