Bobby Johnson: The Source of O-Line Issues (in my opinion)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Rigotz said:

A few corrections to your post:

- Bobby Johnson was signed in January, 2019. Wyatt Teller was traded August 29th, 2019. They had all training camp and pre-season together.

 

A few corrections to your corrections.  The point is: Teller didn't look "awful" here under Bobby Johnson then "great" once he was traded.  He never played a regular season game for Bobby Johnson.  You find the preseason evaluations of Teller from 2019?

 

5 hours ago, Rigotz said:

- Morse was coming off a great career as a 2nd round pick in KC and was made one of the highest paid Centers in the league by the Bills.

 

That's not a correction, since I didn't say anything about Morse prior career, just that Johnson coached Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise "just guys" into a serviceable 2019 OL.  Addition maybe

 

5 hours ago, Rigotz said:

- He didn't "turn Spain into" a good player. Spain was great in 2018 and then Bobby Johnson benched him after he signed an extension. 

 

Are you talking to me?  I didn't say anything about Johnson "turning Spain into" a good player so again, that's not a correction.  Spain was in fact not great in 2018.  He was playing for the Titans, he played OK not great and they wanted an upgrade, which is why he was available to is in FA.  He had a "prove it" deal in 2019 and played well; he came into camp fat and played sloppy after signing an extension in 2020 and got benched after the 2nd game.  This is what I said about Spain:

"I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019."

 

 

5 hours ago, Rigotz said:

- Dawkins was drafted in 2017 and looked great before Bobby Johnson got here.

 

None of the OL looked great in 2018, before Bobby Johnson got here.  The general consensus I remember is that Dawkins had "regressed" in his 2nd season or at least failed to take a step forward from his promising rookie season; part of this may have been playing next to Vlad Ducasse instead of Richie Incognito

 

 

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

A few corrections to your corrections.  The point is: Teller didn't look "awful" here under Bobby Johnson then "great" once he was traded.  He never played a regular season game for Bobby Johnson.  You find the preseason evaluations of Teller from 2019?

 

 

That's not a correction, since I didn't say anything about Morse prior career, just that Johnson coached Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise "just guys" into a serviceable 2019 OL.  Addition maybe

 

 

Are you talking to me?  I didn't say anything about Johnson "turning Spain into" a good player so again, that's not a correction.  Spain was in fact not great in 2018.  He was playing for the Titans, he played OK not great and they wanted an upgrade, which is why he was available to is in FA.  He had a "prove it" deal in 2019 and played well; he came into camp fat and played sloppy after signing an extension in 2020 and got benched after the 2nd game.  This is what I said about Spain:

"I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019."

 

 

 

None of the OL looked great in 2018, before Bobby Johnson got here.  The general consensus I remember is that Dawkins had "regressed" in his 2nd season or at least failed to take a step forward from his promising rookie season; part of this may have been playing next to Vlad Ducasse instead of Richie Incognito

 

 

Hi Hapless. Would you please tell me how do you do this (break apart a post into bite sized quotes)?

 

I tried to PM you, but it says I can’t.

[Mr. WEO]

33 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

Oh man... ok. Let's try to explain this differently:

 

Option 1: Beane listens to Bobby Johnson.

Bobby Johnson is a former Offensive Lineman who understands the nuances of Offensive Line play. He is with the Offensive Linemen of the Bills nearly every day and practices with them 1 on 1 nearly every day. He gives his opinions to Beane on the Offensive Line talent on the roster and decides where they line up.

 

Option 2: Beane "watches almost every Bills game" and makes a decision without any input from Bobby Johnson.

Brandon Beane, who is in charge of roster management, cap management, filling every position on the field along with practice squad, coaching and executive hires, publicity, and general team management... and he makes unilateral decisions on the Offensive Line.

 

Which is more likely?

 

Option 3,  see above.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is valid, but the point is they kept Long, Bates and Boettger on the roster ahead of Teller.  But Teller is signing a 2nd contract, while Bates can't crack the lineup and Boettger is not looking fit to carry Teller's jock.  It's not like the choice was "give him the keys/trade him"; the choice was keep him on the roster as a developmental player, or keep these other guys on the roster - Long as the backup center, which was a good move, and Bates and Boettger as backup OL.

 

 

I don't follow this question since I didn't say anything about Brown being "benched" in week 1?  Brown played 1 snap for Dawkins (lost his shoe or something) and 3 snaps as an extra blocker I believe.  Similar Week 2, played a couple snaps for Dawkins and a handful as an extra blocker.

 

 

Yeah I confused things there, The OP stated that about Brown and I was more directing at his comments.   I guess  he was implying once Dawkins got his show back on and came back in for Brown implied he was benched??

[The Jokeman]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

New England showed it best of all throughout the years with Scarnecchia coaching them, one of the best in the business...they literally would plug UDFA street free agents in there and they would play well.

Having Brady with his ability to read defenses better than almost anybody and ability to fell pressure helps.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Hi Hapless. Would you please tell me how do you do this (break apart a post into bite sized quotes)?

 

 

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

I tried to PM you, but it says I can’t.

 

No problem.  Put your cursor on the part you want to split, and hit <return> twice, fairly rapidly about like double-clicking a mouse.

Sometimes have to fiddle with it a bit (save the post then edit it)

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

No problem.  Put your cursor on the part you want to split, and hit <return> twice, fairly rapidly about like double-clicking a mouse.

Sometimes have to fiddle with it a bit (save the post then edit it)

Thank you!

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Wait the offensive line coach gets the blame for attempting to coach up the pedestrian unit of talent he was given?… sorry Beane and McD get much more of the blame.

 

I believe it is at least part of the issue.  Linemen that we have released have gone on to be starters elsewhere after struggling here they are doing well.  Linemen that we have picked up have gotten worse.  It makes sense that coaching is an issue here.  I refuse to believe that we just have a revolving door of the worst players in the league at a single position group when all of our other position groups are doing great.  Especially when we let guys go that go on to do well on other teams.

 

Bobby Fricken Hart is starting for the Titans for christ sake.  I dont know if he is doing well or not but he is starting for one of the best teams in the AFC and he looked like the worst player ever here.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

My thoughts exactly.
 

Bobby Johnson didn’t make Beane make these moves.

 

You think Beane makes moves without the evaluation and input from the staff?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

Option 2 is more likely.

Just watching a few seasons of Hard Knocks would tell you that the GM is almost never talking to a position coach.

 

🤦‍♂️ because watching a "Reality Show" about one of the worst franchises during training camp and the season on your TV, really gives a person accurate insight into every aspect of a successful organization's workings during player evaluation/predraft/FA

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Bobby Fricken Hart is starting for the Titans for christ sake.  I dont know if he is doing well or not but he is starting for one of the best teams in the AFC and he looked like the worst player ever here.

 

I don't think he's starting for the Titans.  He played 1% of the snaps against the Colts.

But he did play at LT for about 2/3 of the game where the Thumbtacks stuck it to the Chiefs.

 

[Scott7975]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

🤦‍♂️ because watching a "Reality Show" about one of the worst franchises during training camp and the season on your TV, really gives a person accurate insight into every aspect of a successful organization's workings during player evaluation/predraft/FA

 

 

 

 

I don't think he's starting for the Titans.  He played 1% of the snaps against the Colts.

But he did play at LT for about 2/3 of the game where the Thumbtacks stuck it to the Chiefs.

 

and he played 100% of the snaps this week against LA

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

If Teller and Spain are doing much better off the team, this suggests coaching. 

 

It could. But as noted, Teller never played for Bobby Johnson during a regular season, so we don't have a comparison there

 

Spain played very well under Bobby Johnson in 2019, which is why he was offered a good contract

He then proceeded to play poorly at the start of 2020, get benched then cut, and play "meh" enough for Cincinnati to be offered a vet minimum "prove it" deal a month into FA.  He's now (under the need to "prove it") playing well

 

So it's possible, but less conclusive than one might think.

 

3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

and he played 100% of the snaps this week against LA

 

Hmmm right you are.  LT too.  And now that I look further, I think the snap counts on pro-football-reference are incorrect for the Colts.

 

So that's another guy who looked unserviceable here this summer, and is now playing well enough to allow his team to win

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

I just heard on the Locked On Bills podcast that PFF graded Cody Ford the best Olineman in the game. 2nd best offensive player overall.

 

LOL

 

Regarding coaching vs talent, I expect Bobby Johnson to be shown the door sooner than later. The OP nicely layed out the series of events surrounding this line. After spending 3 years acquiring all sorts of players for this unit, their next move is to acquire a different coach. 

 

That's not to say the talent is adequate. They've definitely missed on their evaluation of the interior line. But maybe a new coach/new personnel guy can help out with that. 

He says the staff has miscalculated the talent of this line, and not honest with themselves. That's sort off calling out their OL coach and personnel guys in an indirect way...

I just watched the first half again. Ford wasn't great, but Williams at right tackle was just horrible. He was the main problem to me. First half only. I'll try to watch the rest, but it's hard to watch.

[Scott7975]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It could. But as noted, Teller never played for Bobby Johnson during a regular season, so we don't have a comparison there

 

Spain played very well under Bobby Johnson in 2019, which is why he was offered a good contract

He then proceeded to play poorly at the start of 2020, get benched then cut, and play "meh" enough for Cincinnati to be offered a vet minimum "prove it" deal a month into FA.  He's now (under the need to "prove it") playing well

 

So it's possible, but less conclusive than one might think.

 

 

Hmmm right you are.  LT too.  And now that I look further, I think the snap counts on pro-football-reference are incorrect for the Colts.

 

So that's another guy who looked unserviceable here this summer, and is now playing well enough to allow his team to win

 

I see what you are saying about the other stuff but you could think of it this way too... the longer they played for Johnson, the worse they got or regressed.  Coaching should be improving players, not making them worse.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Scott7975

[Einstein]

56 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

You think Beane makes moves without the evaluation and input from the staff?

 

From McD, yes.

 

Do I think he is sitting a position coach down and asking him to analyze whether a player should be traded? No.

 

A GM’s job is to evaluate talent and build a roster in no small part due to talent evaluation.

 

That’s a specialized skill set.

 

When the Bills are vying for a free agent, is Beane calling that players position coach (whose team may also be vying to bring the player back) and ask whether he should sign the player?

 

No way.

 

When the Bills are drafting, is Beane calling the draftees college position coach to ask whether the Bills should draft the kid?

 

Maybe rarely?

 

Is Beane trading a future All Pro guard to an AFC opponent based on the words of a brand new position coach?

 

Absolutely not.

 

McD and Beane also tend to place a lot of emphasis on versatility. They want versatile players. At the time of the trade. it was thought that Ryan Bates’ ability to play any position on the line was what made Teller expendable.

 

Thats a Beane and McD philosophy. Not a philosophy of the brand new line coach.

 

.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Einstein

[letsgoteam]

5 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I like Bates and marvel at why he doesn't play more. He's gotta be better than Boettger.  Williams is making way too much to be standing there watching guys destroy Josh. Next year we're going to see a full engine (OL) overhaul. Bobby Johnson is a TE's coach, not an OL coach. He too needs to be upgraded along with larger, stronger road graders. Then go out a find a real RB.

It seems the Bills are afraid to play players because of injury. Won't play Bates, because what if Morse gets hurt during the game and Bates gets hurt before that? What if McKenzie gets hurt on a jet sweep, who will return the ball?

 

Let the players play.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, letsgoteam said:

It seems the Bills are afraid to play players because of injury. Won't play Bates, because what if Morse gets hurt during the game and Bates gets hurt before that? What if McKenzie gets hurt on a jet sweep, who will return the ball?

 

Let the players play.

 

I'd like to point out that's the viewpoint of some fans, and may not reflect how the Bills are actually thinking

 

Especially since Bates does take the field as an extra blocker (5% of snaps so far this season) and plays teams (20% of snaps)

McKenzie does take snaps at WR (16% this season)

[Rigotz]

29 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

From McD, yes.

 

Do I think he is sitting a position coach down and asking him to analyze whether a player should be traded? No.

 

A GM’s job is to evaluate talent and build a roster in no small part due to talent evaluation.

 

That’s a specialized skill set.

 

When the Bills are vying for a free agent, is Beane calling that players position coach (whose team may also be vying to bring the player back) and ask whether he should sign the player?

 

No way.

 

When the Bills are drafting, is Beane calling the draftees college position coach to ask whether the Bills should draft the kid?

 

Maybe rarely?

 

Is Beane trading a future All Pro guard to an AFC opponent based on the words of a brand new position coach?

 

Absolutely not.

 

McD and Beane also tend to place a lot of emphasis on versatility. They want versatile players. At the time of the trade. it was thought that Ryan Bates’ ability to play any position on the line was what made Teller expendable.

 

Thats a Beane and McD philosophy. Not a philosophy of the brand new line coach.

 

.

This is just such a bad take.

 

No, Beane isn’t calling other position coaches to ask if they should draft/sign O-Linemen, but that’s because they aren’t ON HIS PAYROLL.

 

Bobby Johnson’s job, as paid by Brandon Beane, is literally to coach and evaluate O-Line talent inside the building. OF COURSE they discuss O-Line talent together, which is information used to make decisions.

 

You don’t need to change the topic or split hairs to backtrack from a bad take. No, Bobby Johnson doesn’t “analyze whether a player should be traded” but he CERTAINLY shares his opinion on the guys he is literally paid to coach and evaluate.

 

This really shouldn’t be so hard to grasp. If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves. 

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

This really shouldn’t be so hard to grasp. If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves. 

 

The bolded potion.

 

This means, unequivocally, that Beane is not using his own talent evaluating skills to evaluate the player, but instead relying completely on the position coach.

 

I hope that isn’t true. I do not believe it to be true.

 

To use a ridiculous hyperbole of an example, if the QB coach tells Beane that Allen is not good, I would hope Beane is smart enough and is good enough at talent evaluation to not trade Allen.

 

The buck stops at Beane. It’s his choice and his choice only. He chose to trade Teller. Bobby Johnson did not.

 

The whole premise that this is Bobby Johnsons fault is beyond comprehension to me.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

This is just such a bad take.

 

No, Beane isn’t calling other position coaches to ask if they should draft/sign O-Linemen, but that’s because they aren’t ON HIS PAYROLL.

 

Bobby Johnson’s job, as paid by Brandon Beane, is literally to coach and evaluate O-Line talent inside the building. OF COURSE they discuss O-Line talent together, which is information used to make decisions.

 

You don’t need to change the topic or split hairs to backtrack from a bad take. No, Bobby Johnson doesn’t “analyze whether a player should be traded” but he CERTAINLY shares his opinion on the guys he is literally paid to coach and evaluate.

 

This really shouldn’t be so hard to grasp. If Bobby Johnson gives bad information to Brandon Beane, it turns into bad roster moves. 

 

I'm sure you're correct that Johnson gives input to Beane on the guys he coaches

Beane has also said that he and his team conduct their own evaluation of every player on the roster

So I'm sure decisions are driven by a blend of those evaluations

 

What's the blend?  Likely that only Beane knows for sure.

 

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

The bolded potion.

 

This means, unequivocally, that Beane is not using his own talent evaluating skills to evaluate the player, but instead relying completely on the position coach.

 

I hope that isn’t true. I do not believe it to be true.

 

To use a ridiculous hyperbole of an example, if the QB coach tells Beane that Allen is not good, I would hope Beane is smart enough and is good enough at talent evaluation to not trade Allen.

 

The buck stops at Beane. It’s his choice and his choice only. He chose to trade Teller. Bobby Johnson did not.

 

The whole premise that this is Bobby Johnsons fault is beyond comprehension to me.

 

Why do you insist it has to be so binary?