Bobby Johnson: The Source of O-Line Issues (in my opinion)

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

Imagine all it took was the Bills OL being bad to go from SB favorite to an underdog in their own division. 

 

Talk about the air going out of the balloon.

 

When your OL can't block anybody, you can't do a thing on offense.

 

And to top it all off, the D has gone back to its 2019 form.

 

Just imagine, you give up 9 points and 200 yards of total offense to a 1-6 team..... AND STILL LOSE. That takes a special kinda inept offense to do that.

 

Can this OL turn it around? Sure, but is their any Bills fan alive that actually believes it is going to happen.

I do believe that we will never see Cody Ford take a snap with the Bills ever again.  If this is true, our OL is instantly better than last week.  Williams RG and Brown RT on the right side has to be better than last week.  
 

Maybe we try Bates at LG?  Boettger can take a hike too. Good kid.  Not good at playing LG.  

 

I feel that last weeks version of our OL is the worst version that we’ll see all season.  Just have to hope that they improve enough to get us a 🏆 

[njbuff]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I do believe that we will never see Cody Ford take a snap with the Bills ever again.  If this is true, our OL is instantly better than last week.  Williams RG and Brown RT on the right side has to be better than last week.  
 

Maybe we try Bates at LG?  Boettger can take a hike too. Good kid.  Not good at playing LG.  

 

I feel that last weeks version of our OL is the worst version that we’ll see all season.  Just have to hope that they improve enough to get us a 🏆 

 

Maybe, but if we are relying on a 3rd round rookie to turn around an OL, that isn't exactly inspiring. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, njbuff said:

 

Maybe, but if we are relying on a 3rd round rookie to turn around an OL, that isn't exactly inspiring. 

Inspiring? No.  Luckily it doesn’t have to be. Just has to be enough to win 3 or 4 in a row in the playoffs 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

I expect Johnson to be replaced this off season …. Too many issues with the line and player development overall to keep him around. 

[njbuff]

Just now, NewEra said:

Inspiring? No.  Luckily it doesn’t have to be. Just has to be enough to win 3 or 4 in a row in the playoffs 

 

If they don't start blocking somebody, they will lose Allen for the season, which means they won't even be in the playoffs.

 

Allen took more nasty hits on Sunday than someone like Brady takes for an entire season. Very troubling. 

[Roundybout]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Wait the offensive line coach gets the blame for attempting to coach up the pedestrian unit of talent he was given?… sorry Beane and McD get much more of the blame.

 

If Teller and Spain are doing much better off the team, this suggests coaching. 

[LABILLBACKER]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I do believe that we will never see Cody Ford take a snap with the Bills ever again.  If this is true, our OL is instantly better than last week.  Williams RG and Brown RT on the right side has to be better than last week.  
 

Maybe we try Bates at LG?  Boettger can take a hike too. Good kid.  Not good at playing LG.  

 

I feel that last weeks version of our OL is the worst version that we’ll see all season.  Just have to hope that they improve enough to get us a 🏆 

I like Bates and marvel at why he doesn't play more. He's gotta be better than Boettger.  Williams is making way too much to be standing there watching guys destroy Josh. Next year we're going to see a full engine (OL) overhaul. Bobby Johnson is a TE's coach, not an OL coach. He too needs to be upgraded along with larger, stronger road graders. Then go out a find a real RB.

Edited November 9, 2021 by LABILLBACKER

[Sharky7337]

4 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

If Teller and Spain are doing much better off the team, this suggests coaching. 

Or scheme! Don't forget that conniving man scheme!

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Rigotz said:

So, I think this mindset is the issue. You're right that Bobby Johnson didn't force Beane to make these moves.

 

However, Brandon Beane isn't sitting in the O-Line room and coaching these players every day. He's not scouting his own offensive line 24/7. He's trying to bring in new talent and like every other GM, relies on his coaches for information on internal need. At some point, Beane probably asked Bobby Johnson "hey, how is this Wyatt Teller guy looking?" or "what are we missing on the O-Line" and the information he's been given is consistently wrong.

 

This ideology is quite strange to me.

 

A positional coach is at fault because a GM several times above his pay grade could not evaluate talent properly enough to make a good decision?

 

Does Beane have to rely on a college players positional coach to tell him whether to draft him as well?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OMG Seriously?  If ever there were an indictment of PFF's grading system for offensive line.

That's just...offensive?

 

What did Locked On Bills (is that Joe Marino?) say about that.

 

 

It seems to me that the OP missed Big on one point:

-Bobby Johnson came in after a 2018 Disaster on OL

-2019 saw Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise a bunch of pretty much "Just Guys" including Nsekhe, Feliciano and Spain into a serviceable OL.  Run game wasn't great, but it was present: Bills were 6th in the league for rush attempts, and 8th in the league for rush yards.  Singletary saw 5.1 YPC.

-2020 saw a fantastic pass game emerge behind such notables as Brian Winters and Cody Ford, or Boettger and Winters, at guard, and play seemed to spark a bit when Feliciano returned.

 

So the same guy who could coach up a bunch of guys into a decent OL in 2019 and 2020, is now totally incompetent? 

 

I'm not gonna say that coaching, or the protections called, don't have something to do with it.  But it's supposed to be Bobby Johnson's fault that Dawkins, who emerged as a franchise LT in 2019 and continued to play well in 2020 after his big payday, is now playing like crap?  Or that Williams, who  was given a "prove it!" deal at RT in 2020 and locked it down, lost his job to a rookie who looks promising, but makes rookie mistakes and would never see the field if 2020 Williams was playing?

 

I think there may be some nuance there being missed.

 

I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019.

 

I also grant it as a valid point that Teller has become one bodacious Hawg Mollie guard.  But it's not like he played like crap under Johnson and then played better in Cleveland.  He never played for Johnson, he was traded just before the season.  We don't get a parallel universe to see how he would have developed here.

 

 

I don't think there's an argument that the staff miscalculated the talent of the OL.   They clearly made a mistake trading Teller and keeping Bates and Boettger ahead of him.   I think that's a philosphical error - I think Beane over-emphasizes versatility in his developmental OLmen at the expense of them learning to "do one thing well". 

 

Ford is looking like a bust.  That happens. 

 

But Dawkins, Williams, Feliciano and Boettger all played more servicably last season, so I think there might be something else going on. 

 

Maybe last season they had nothing to do but stay home and watch film and this year they're out knocking the "J" out of Jacksonville the night before the game.  There was a rumor here near the start of the season that Dawkins was unfocused on football and out running around with Bennie the Butcher.

 

 

Ford is running out of chances.  This was supposed to be his year, being able to work on himself in the off-season.  Maybe playing with an injured arm/shoulder in 2019 and 2020 really ***** him up, I don't know.  It happens that players don't play up to their potential due to injuries, or yes, due to misevaluation.

 

I thought Boettger played servicably last year.  Not great, but serviceable at LG.  And if we're giving Dawkins the "Covid pass", well, Boettger had Covid too.

 

Agree for the most part, these are the same five who last year led one of the best offenses in the league. 

 

As for Teller, in 2018 the Bills O line was very bad, that's why Teller got the chance to even play.  So 2019 they brought in a bunch of new experienced guys and based on prior years results, don't think they wanted to give the keys to a 2nd year player who looked promising at best at that point.  They went with experience.

 

Part of the mess with Ford is due to him missing most of 2020 with injury, so they really didn't have a good feel for whether he was the answer at guard or not.  But given he was 2nd round pick, they gave him the benefit of the doubt.  Looked good in pre-season, but playing against vanilla defenses too.

 

With many of the moves they've made in the past couple of years, benching Spain and Ford this year, there was improvement the next game (till Brown got hurt)

 

When was Brown benched in week 1? And started week 2??  Was he playing for someone else who got injured??  Did he play a few snaps for Dawkins in week 1?

 

Wouldn't shock me to see them move on from Johnson, however mostly everything listed here as issues are all way above Johnson's pay grade too!

[vincec]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why does Bobby Johnson keep trading all of these studs?

Unfortunately, they weren’t studs while with the Bills. That’s the issue. They leave and play better than while they’re here.

[vincec]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Actually wrong… Spain was good here and Teller came off a solid rookie season. 

If you say so. I’m not saying your wrong, but the team obviously didn’t agree or they wouldn’t have gotten rid of them.

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Rigotz said:

 

A few corrections to your post:

- Bobby Johnson was signed in January, 2019. Wyatt Teller was traded August 29th, 2019. They had all training camp and pre-season together.

- Morse was coming off a great career as a 2nd round pick in KC and was made one of the highest paid Centers in the league by the Bills.

- He didn't "turn Spain into" a good player. Spain was great in 2018 and then Bobby Johnson benched him after he signed an extension. 

- Dawkins was drafted in 2017 and looked great before Bobby Johnson got here.

 

I don't understand the excuses for this guy...

 

So, I think this mindset is the issue. You're right that Bobby Johnson didn't force Beane to make these moves.

 

However, Brandon Beane isn't sitting in the O-Line room and coaching these players every day. He's not scouting his own offensive line 24/7. He's trying to bring in new talent and like every other GM, relies on his coaches for information on internal need. At some point, Beane probably asked Bobby Johnson "hey, how is this Wyatt Teller guy looking?" or "what are we missing on the O-Line" and the information he's been given is consistently wrong.

 

 

I'm sure Beane watches almost every Bills game.  Lots of practices too.  He can get a good idea without being in the room.

 

Also, Johnson doesn't trade players nor does he bench players...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Agree for the most part, these are the same five who last year led one of the best offenses in the league. 

 

As for Teller, in 2018 the Bills O line was very bad, that's why Teller got the chance to even play.  So 2019 they brought in a bunch of new experienced guys and based on prior years results, don't think they wanted to give the keys to a 2nd year player who looked promising at best at that point.  They went with experience.

 

This is valid, but the point is they kept Long, Bates and Boettger on the roster ahead of Teller.  But Teller is signing a 2nd contract, while Bates can't crack the lineup and Boettger is not looking fit to carry Teller's jock.  It's not like the choice was "give him the keys/trade him"; the choice was keep him on the roster as a developmental player, or keep these other guys on the roster - Long as the backup center, which was a good move, and Bates and Boettger as backup OL.

 

20 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

When was Brown benched in week 1? And started week 2??  Was he playing for someone else who got injured??  Did he play a few snaps for Dawkins in week 1?

 

I don't follow this question since I didn't say anything about Brown being "benched" in week 1?  Brown played 1 snap for Dawkins (lost his shoe or something) and 3 snaps as an extra blocker I believe.  Similar Week 2, played a couple snaps for Dawkins and a handful as an extra blocker.

 

[BBills88]

The RB's are not the problem, let's fix the line first. Who can run behind a line when the the defensive players meet you a step at the handoff & you have to make 2 or 3 moves before you get to the LOS

[Rigotz]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm sure Beane watches almost every Bills game.  Lots of practices too.  He can get a good idea without being in the room.

 

Also, Johnson doesn't trade players nor does he bench players...

 

Oh man... ok. Let's try to explain this differently:

 

Option 1: Beane listens to Bobby Johnson.

Bobby Johnson is a former Offensive Lineman who understands the nuances of Offensive Line play. He is with the Offensive Linemen of the Bills nearly every day and practices with them 1 on 1 nearly every day. He gives his opinions to Beane on the Offensive Line talent on the roster and decides where they line up.

 

Option 2: Beane "watches almost every Bills game" and makes a decision without any input from Bobby Johnson.

Brandon Beane, who is in charge of roster management, cap management, filling every position on the field along with practice squad, coaching and executive hires, publicity, and general team management... and he makes unilateral decisions on the Offensive Line.

 

Which is more likely?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Just saw this picture on FB. Yes, those are three lineman blocking one guy, as another has an unimpeded path to Josh. Someone please tell me this picture is photoshopped. If not, that’s on coaching (or lack thereof).

 

It's not photoshopped.

 

It represents an error in the protections - either in the called protections, in the execution of those protections or (IMO) in the failure of the OL to properly adjust and pick up a stunt or a delayed rusher.

 

Poor coaching may certainly contribute to all of the above, and good coaching may help eliminate all of the above, but at the end of the day it's on the "Jimmies and Joes" to execute.

 

At a guess, the guy heading for Allen may have started out on the L side and stunted around, or he may have pretended to drop into coverage and then rushed once all the blockers were committed elsewhere, and that Jaguar with 3 blockers on him is probably holding with both fists and his teeth

 

3 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

Oh man... ok. Let's try to explain this differently:

 

Option 1: Beane listens to Bobby Johnson.

Bobby Johnson is a former Offensive Lineman who understands the nuances of Offensive Line play. He is with the Offensive Linemen of the Bills nearly every day and practices with them 1 on 1 nearly every day. He gives his opinions to Beane on the Offensive Line talent on the roster and decides where they line up.

 

Option 2: Beane "watches almost every Bills game" and makes a decision without any input from Bobby Johnson.

Brandon Beane, who is in charge of roster management, cap management, filling every position on the field along with practice squad, coaching and executive hires, publicity, and general team management... and he makes unilateral decisions on the Offensive Line.

 

Which is more likely?

 

I'm going to vote for

Option 3: Beane and his pro personnel evaluation team watch every snap of every Bills game and make an evaluation on players.  Bobby Johnson and his assistants also watch every snap of every Bills game and make an evaluation of players.  Then they get together and discuss their evaluations.  I can't tell you how they resolve differences.  Possibly they go back and watch certain critical plays again.  Either that, or they play Rock, Paper, Scissors - with or without Lizard, Spock

 

Why do people like to make everything so binary?  Real life is messy.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Actually wrong… Spain was good here and Teller came off a solid rookie season. 

 

The whole OL was miserable in Teller's rookie season (2018).  He looked better than Vlad Ducasse, whom he replaced, but that's a pretty low bar.

 

If Spain was  "good here", why was he benched after the 2nd game (Miami) when he damned near got Allen killed with a whiff?  He played well in 2019, got paid, and became Mr. Gold Rolex Attitude.  He didn't exactly light the field on fire for Cincy in the rest of 2019 either, since they signed him to a 1 yr minimum deal a month into FA.

[Steptide]

One thing that's annoyed me is the constant shuffling of the o line. I feel like that's something that should be solidified in camp. I know we have some injuries, but I feel like the last 3 years has been a constant shuffling of players at o line 

[Einstein]

25 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

Oh man... ok. Let's try to explain this differently:

 

Option 1: Beane listens to Bobby Johnson.

Bobby Johnson is a former Offensive Lineman who understands the nuances of Offensive Line play. He is with the Offensive Linemen of the Bills nearly every day and practices with them 1 on 1 nearly every day. He gives his opinions to Beane on the Offensive Line talent on the roster and decides where they line up.

 

Option 2: Beane "watches almost every Bills game" and makes a decision without any input from Bobby Johnson.

Brandon Beane, who is in charge of roster management, cap management, filling every position on the field along with practice squad, coaching and executive hires, publicity, and general team management... and he makes unilateral decisions on the Offensive Line.

 

Which is more likely?

 

Option 2 is more likely.

 

Just watching a few seasons of Hard Knocks would tell you that the GM is almost never talking to a position coach.

 

If anything, it’s the head coach.

 

And even then, the GM often overrides the coach. See Mike Macganon signing Bell against Gase’s wishes, for example.

 

McD and Beane also tend to place a lot of emphasis on versatility. They want versatile players. At the time it was thought than Ryan Bates’ ability to play any position on the line was what made Teller expendable.

 

Thats a Beane/McD philosophy. Not the position coach.

 

But regardless, none of this matters because Beane should be good enough at evaluating talent to see through a bad coach or system or talent around a player.

 

Thats how he got Allen. He saw past the crap around him.

 

I ask you again - Does Beane have to ask a draftee’s college positional coach whether he should draft him?

Edited November 10, 2021 by Einstein