Bobby Johnson: The Source of O-Line Issues (in my opinion)

[Utah John]

Teller was released so we could keep Ryan Bates, IIRC.

[Rigotz]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It seems to me that the OP missed Big on one point:

-Bobby Johnson came in after a 2018 Disaster on OL

-2019 saw Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise a bunch of pretty much "Just Guys" including Nsekhe, Feliciano and Spain into a serviceable OL.  Run game wasn't great, but it was present: Bills were 6th in the league for rush attempts, and 8th in the league for rush yards.  Singletary saw 5.1 YPC.

-2020 saw a fantastic pass game emerge behind such notables as Brian Winters and Cody Ford, or Boettger and Winters, at guard, and play seemed to spark a bit when Feliciano returned.

 

So the same guy who could coach up a bunch of guys into a decent OL in 2019 and 2020, is now totally incompetent? 

 

I'm not gonna say that coaching, or the protections called, don't have something to do with it.  But it's supposed to be Bobby Johnson's fault that Dawkins, who emerged as a franchise LT in 2019 and continued to play well in 2020 after his big payday, is now playing like crap?  Or that Williams, who  was given a "prove it!" deal at RT in 2020 and locked it down, lost his job to a rookie who looks promising, but makes rookie mistakes and would never see the field if 2020 Williams was playing?

 

I think there may be some nuance there being missed.

 

I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019.

 

I also grant it as a valid point that Teller has become one bodacious Hawg Mollie guard.  But it's not like he played like crap under Johnson and then played better in Cleveland.  He never played for Johnson, he was traded just before the season.

 

 

I don't think there's an argument that the staff miscalculated the talent of the OL.   They clearly made a mistake trading Teller and keeping Bates and Boettger ahead of him.   I think that's a philosphical error - I think Beane over-emphasizes versatility in his developmental OLmen at the expense of them learning to "do one thing well".  Ford is looking like a bust.

 

But Dawkins, Williams, Feliciano and Boettger all played more servicably last season, so I think there might be something else going on. 

 

A few corrections to your post:

- Bobby Johnson was signed in January, 2019. Wyatt Teller was traded August 29th, 2019. They had all training camp and pre-season together.

- Morse was coming off a great career as a 2nd round pick in KC and was made one of the highest paid Centers in the league by the Bills.

- He didn't "turn Spain into" a good player. Spain was great in 2018 and then Bobby Johnson benched him after he signed an extension. 

- Dawkins was drafted in 2017 and looked great before Bobby Johnson got here.

 

I don't understand the excuses for this guy...

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

My thoughts exactly.
 

Bobby Johnson didn’t make Beane make these moves.

 

So, I think this mindset is the issue. You're right that Bobby Johnson didn't force Beane to make these moves.

 

However, Brandon Beane isn't sitting in the O-Line room and coaching these players every day. He's not scouting his own offensive line 24/7. He's trying to bring in new talent and like every other GM, relies on his coaches for information on internal need. At some point, Beane probably asked Bobby Johnson "hey, how is this Wyatt Teller guy looking?" or "what are we missing on the O-Line" and the information he's been given is consistently wrong.

[LabattBlue]

Is it blocking schemes? Technique?  Mental mistakes? Lack of strength? Lack  of talent?

 

Johnson is responsible for at least some of these things, and IMO he should be shown the door after this season(McD isn’t kicking him to the curb mid-season).  This is two years in a row the OL is not good enough for a SB caliber team. 

 

[John from Riverside]

I honestly dont know if he is the cause....but I think they should fire him anyway.   Send a message to these offensive linemen that they getting their ass kicked week in and week out is being noticed by management

[thenorthremembers]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OMG Seriously?  If ever there were an indictment of PFF's grading system for offensive line.

That's just...offensive?

 

What did Locked On Bills (is that Joe Marino?) say about that.

 

 

It seems to me that the OP missed Big on one point:

-Bobby Johnson came in after a 2018 Disaster on OL

-2019 saw Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise a bunch of pretty much "Just Guys" including Nsekhe, Feliciano and Spain into a serviceable OL.  Run game wasn't great, but it was present: Bills were 6th in the league for rush attempts, and 8th in the league for rush yards.  Singletary saw 5.1 YPC.

-2020 saw a fantastic pass game emerge behind such notables as Brian Winters and Cody Ford, or Boettger and Winters, at guard, and play seemed to spark a bit when Feliciano returned.

 

So the same guy who could coach up a bunch of guys into a decent OL in 2019 and 2020, is now totally incompetent? 

 

I'm not gonna say that coaching, or the protections called, don't have something to do with it.  But it's supposed to be Bobby Johnson's fault that Dawkins, who emerged as a franchise LT in 2019 and continued to play well in 2020 after his big payday, is now playing like crap?  Or that Williams, who  was given a "prove it!" deal at RT in 2020 and locked it down, lost his job to a rookie who looks promising, but makes rookie mistakes and would never see the field if 2020 Williams was playing?

 

I think there may be some nuance there being missed.

 

I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019.

 

I also grant it as a valid point that Teller has become one bodacious Hawg Mollie guard.  But it's not like he played like crap under Johnson and then played better in Cleveland.  He never played for Johnson, he was traded just before the season.  We don't get a parallel universe to see how he would have developed here.

 

 

I don't think there's an argument that the staff miscalculated the talent of the OL.   They clearly made a mistake trading Teller and keeping Bates and Boettger ahead of him.   I think that's a philosphical error - I think Beane over-emphasizes versatility in his developmental OLmen at the expense of them learning to "do one thing well". 

 

Ford is looking like a bust.  That happens. 

 

But Dawkins, Williams, Feliciano and Boettger all played more servicably last season, so I think there might be something else going on. 

 

Maybe last season they had nothing to do but stay home and watch film and this year they're out knocking the "J" out of Jacksonville the night before the game.  There was a rumor here near the start of the season that Dawkins was unfocused on football and out running around with Bennie the Butcher.

 

 

Ford is running out of chances.  This was supposed to be his year, being able to work on himself in the off-season.  Maybe playing with an injured arm/shoulder in 2019 and 2020 really ***** him up, I don't know.  It happens that players don't play up to their potential due to injuries, or yes, due to misevaluation.

 

I thought Boettger played servicably last year.  Not great, but serviceable at LG.  And if we're giving Dawkins the "Covid pass", well, Boettger had Covid too.

Thinking back to Ford's tape at OU he had to do a lot of pulling and blocking in space.   He looked like an absolute animal.   That said, I dont recall a lot of him having to stay in on pass sets and deal with stunts and twists.   More than likely he was a product of a rudimentary blocking scheme.    At this point I am not sure why he is on the roster anymore.   He has been horrendous.

 

 

[bigK14094]

2 hours ago, uninja said:

There seems to be an issue with how the Bills coach the guard spots.

 

We've now had two players (Spain & Teller) play poorly at the guard spots, leave, and immediately play much better. One time I can chalk that up to a poor player/scheme fit, but two times? That to me flashes 'coaching issue.'

As they say, burn me once, shame on you....burn me twice, shame on me.

[marky]

I would sum up my oline strategy in two words:

titty twister

 

After the game, when the dline takes off their shoulder pads, I want it to look like they've been mauled by a chimp. Dline, just guess the play, like listen in on the huddle. That's all you have to do. Really not that difficult to be good at football.

[Rockinon]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me the coaching staff is to blame. Not because of the OL coaching specifically. Josh has been trying to push the ball downfield while the defense is showing 2 deep safeties. Is this Josh hero ball or is it the offensive coordinator? I know there is a great deal of faith in the receivers. Perhaps they are pushing the boundaries of what Josh and the receivers can do. And the OL for that matter. I'm wondering if there is a big picture issue instead of trying to lay the blame on a coach or OLmen. This line was considered very good at pass blocking last year.  I do remember last year, everyone was talking about how Josh was taking what the defense was giving him and surprisingly hitting on shorter routes. Perhaps defenses are playing us a bit differently, but I think there are many different ways to attack the problem and it doesn't involve firing coaches or replacing linemen. Guys like Beasley have been underused this year. Those short routes will force a safety to play shallower. That's when you can take those deep shots, instead of trying to force it. To me, it looked like the offense kept trying to do the same thing that didn't work the first time over and over. And it wasn't until too late in the game before they adjusted. Also, I believe that this OL needs to get creative with the run blocking schemes. Need to mix it up, because it just seems to be the same play every time a RB is given the hand off. And for the love of god Josh, when you hand off the ball to a RB, let him take it while he has a head of steam, instead of make them stop because you can't decide whether you want to keep it yourself...haha. Sorry for rambling, but I think there's some things to think about in here.

[Buffalo Junction]

20 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Thinking back to Ford's tape at OU he had to do a lot of pulling and blocking in space.   He looked like an absolute animal.   That said, I dont recall a lot of him having to stay in on pass sets and deal with stunts and twists.   More than likely he was a product of a rudimentary blocking scheme.    At this point I am not sure why he is on the roster anymore.   He has been horrendous.

 

 

I’m not sure if this falls on Daboll, OG Bobby Johnson, or some combination of them…. But…. Pulling and blocking in space were strengths of Ford coming out of college and Morse coming over from KC. Not utilizing the strengths of two starting linemen for years in a row is a problem. 

[SoCal Deek]

Why are we having this debate? Fire the O Line coach now. You can’t swap out all the players and management has to do something! 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, Utah John said:

Teller was released so we could keep Ryan Bates, IIRC.

 

Probably so we could keep Spencer Long, but it's hard to tell.  One of Long, Bates, and Boettger.

 

Long had shown he could play C in the NFL and Morse was out with concussion protocol all preseason.  I'm inferring it was Long who was next from the bottom on the depth chart because we moved on after that season and Bates and Boettger are still here.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

I’m not sure if this falls on Daboll, OG Bobby Johnson, or some combination of them…. But…. Pulling and blocking in space were strengths of Ford coming out of college and Morse coming over from KC. Not utilizing the strengths of two starting linemen for years in a row is a problem. 

 

AH HA!  Now we're getting to something!  Good question: does the scheme we are running match the strengths of the players?   And if not, why not?

 

In 2019, when we had a #6 in the league run game, we were running more gap than zone runs

 

In 2020, when our run game went AWOL most of the time, we switched to zone runs

 

 

This is from Cover1's piece last season which is worth a rewatch

 

[Rockinon]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

AH HA!  Now we're getting to something!  Good question: does the scheme we are running match the strengths of the players?   And if not, why not?

 

In 2019, when we had a #6 in the league run game, we were running more gap than zone runs

 

In 2020, when our run game went AWOL most of the time, we switched to zone runs

 

 

This is from Cover1's piece last season which is worth a rewatch

 

I've been wondering the same thing about the run plays. It's really odd that none of our RBs can make it to the second level of the defense. Good catch. Perhaps because of all the OL shuffling? I've been watching how anemic the offense as a whole has looked. And it isn't just the run game or the pass game. We simply aren't mixing things up. Hope they get out of this funk soon.

[Buffalo Junction]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

AH HA!  Now we're getting to something!  Good question: does the scheme we are running match the strengths of the players?   And if not, why not?

 

In 2019, when we had a #6 in the league run game, we were running more gap than zone runs

 

In 2020, when our run game went AWOL most of the time, we switched to zone runs

 

 

This is from Cover1's piece last season which is worth a rewatch

 

Almost forgot that Spain was reliable when pulling as well. What’s discouraging is we had three interior linemen with similar strengths in a scheme. It points me to a lack of identity in the running game which leads to a lack of clarity with regards to the talent and skill sets needed to improve in consistency and/ quality. It’s also a reason why these guys who all have a decent level of talent are playing subpar football as a group. 

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OMG Seriously?  If ever there were an indictment of PFF's grading system for offensive line.

That's just...offensive?

 

What did Locked On Bills (is that Joe Marino?) say about that.

 

 

It seems to me that the OP missed Big on one point:

-Bobby Johnson came in after a 2018 Disaster on OL

-2019 saw Dawkins, Morse, rookie Ford, and otherwise a bunch of pretty much "Just Guys" including Nsekhe, Feliciano and Spain into a serviceable OL.  Run game wasn't great, but it was present: Bills were 6th in the league for rush attempts, and 8th in the league for rush yards.  Singletary saw 5.1 YPC.

-2020 saw a fantastic pass game emerge behind such notables as Brian Winters and Cody Ford, or Boettger and Winters, at guard, and play seemed to spark a bit when Feliciano returned.

 

So the same guy who could coach up a bunch of guys into a decent OL in 2019 and 2020, is now totally incompetent? 

 

I'm not gonna say that coaching, or the protections called, don't have something to do with it.  But it's supposed to be Bobby Johnson's fault that Dawkins, who emerged as a franchise LT in 2019 and continued to play well in 2020 after his big payday, is now playing like crap?  Or that Williams, who  was given a "prove it!" deal at RT in 2020 and locked it down, lost his job to a rookie who looks promising, but makes rookie mistakes and would never see the field if 2020 Williams was playing?

 

I think there may be some nuance there being missed.

 

I grant it as a valid point that Spain improved after moving to Cincinnati, but the improvement wasn't immediate - he didn't look so great last season and was a delayed signing to a 1 year vet minimum deal - not what you offer a "pro bowl caliber player".  He's playing well now - but he's also playing for a new contract, as he did in 2019.

 

I also grant it as a valid point that Teller has become one bodacious Hawg Mollie guard.  But it's not like he played like crap under Johnson and then played better in Cleveland.  He never played for Johnson, he was traded just before the season.  We don't get a parallel universe to see how he would have developed here.

 

 

I don't think there's an argument that the staff miscalculated the talent of the OL.   They clearly made a mistake trading Teller and keeping Bates and Boettger ahead of him.   I think that's a philosphical error - I think Beane over-emphasizes versatility in his developmental OLmen at the expense of them learning to "do one thing well". 

 

Ford is looking like a bust.  That happens. 

 

But Dawkins, Williams, Feliciano and Boettger all played more servicably last season, so I think there might be something else going on. 

 

Maybe last season they had nothing to do but stay home and watch film and this year they're out knocking the "J" out of Jacksonville the night before the game.  There was a rumor here near the start of the season that Dawkins was unfocused on football and out running around with Bennie the Butcher.

 

 

Ford is running out of chances.  This was supposed to be his year, being able to work on himself in the off-season.  Maybe playing with an injured arm/shoulder in 2019 and 2020 really ***** him up, I don't know.  It happens that players don't play up to their potential due to injuries, or yes, due to misevaluation.

 

I thought Boettger played servicably last year.  Not great, but serviceable at LG.  And if we're giving Dawkins the "Covid pass", well, Boettger had Covid too.

In response to the PFF thing, he just laughed and said he didn't know what to make of it. 

I think the argument against coaching is 1. the development of the interior+RT and 2. the overall cohesiveness of the unit. They've gotten some great play out of these guys in spurts like you mentioned, but mostly it's the tackles and center making up for the poor play of the guards. They've stuck so many different guys around Dawkins and Morse, but never get any consistency there.

 

There was one play early in the Jax game where the 3 guys on the right side all blocked the same IDL and no one blocked the DE. Communication has always been a problem with these guys and that's all on coaching.

 

There's that story about Feliciano purposefully losing weight in the offseason and wanting to play faster, but it's been no help at all. It looks like DTs can simply lift him out of the way. Is that on coaching? Obviously they've gotten nothing out of Ford. Williams was a tried and true FA veteran and he's been as expected. Spencer Brown has come in as a rookie and done everything he was known for in college. It'll be interesting if his play improves at all under Johnson.

 

Dawkins' struggles I assume are mostly related to covid. Like others have said, it takes a while to recover. Cardio issues are a huge detriment.

 

I don't think Beane has a problem finding talented players, but they need coaches that'll turn them into a cohesive unit and build an identity. I think you mentioned the Pats' long-time OL coach earlier. Let's try to find that type of guy. Let's find our Mike Munchak, Joe D'Allessandris, Aaron Kromer (without the mental issues, lol)... I'd feel much better about the futures of their young OLs with a good coach in place.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why does Bobby Johnson keep trading all of these studs?

Because they aren’t studs while playing for Bobby Johnson

 

Developing players into their best self is what good coaches do.  None are our OL are their best selfs playing under Johnson.

 

I’m not saying he’s the problem.  I don’t know enough about OL scheme/play to say such a thing.  One thing I know….the OL we traded, turned into their best self after leaving the tutelage of BJ.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by NewEra

[Bad Things]

I've read in numerous post game reports that the OL had difficulty identifying certain stunts and schemes from the Jax defense.

Whose responsibility on the coaching staff is that?

[billybrew1]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why does Bobby Johnson keep trading all of these studs?

I realize you're being sarcastic, but The buck always, always, always stops at the GM's desk. While Beane has made plenty of terrific moves, he's made plenty of whoops moves too....

I'd say our OL is playing below what we all thought it would play like, even with the injuries, it was abandon Bean that new the OL was in trouble as he surprised us by drafting three OL last April. It sure looks like he is going to draft three more this coming April. 

Until then we have to hope for quick recoveries of our injured OL and hope we do not run into more. It's too bad we like st our 7th round pick to Philly, he'd be called up by now and maybe even playing.... Boy, I remember the press and Love Cody Ford received before the draft. A absolute sure thing at guard and maybe a winner at RT. Big, mean and dominating. Everybody loved him... All the draftniks were so happy we got him.... A GMs job is hard. Everyone has to deal with busts, it just happens. Hopefully, players like Epenesa, Moss, Davis, Fromm, Rousseau, Basham, Brown And the rest turn into winners. It looks like Beane also has trouble identifying running backs.....

I hope ourteam next year has a much better OL (a free agent added plus a second and the rd round picks would be nice) a new big RB and probably even his back up. It took me a long time to realize this but neither back is NFL good. I guess I was hoping that they'd improve but instead both declined. It's a fact. 

Imagine if JA had Fred Jackson and Marshawn Lynch available to hand the ball off to. We had a worse line then than we do now and those guys averaged 5.1 yds./carry when everyone knew we were running. They always got hit in the backfield yet broke tackle and got good yardage. Both of our current backs need big holes most of the time. We're talking completely different levels of talent here. If a coach needs to be fired, it is our RB coach as our backs continue to decline and lose confidence. I know the RB coach is very experienced but perhaps he is phoning it in or was really never any good, IDK, we'll see at the end of the year what McD thinks of Bobby Johnson  and Kelly Skipper But clearly blame must be placed on McBeane's feet as well. To miss with third round picks twoyear in a row is bad.

 

Boo....

[njbuff]

Imagine all it took was the Bills OL being bad to go from SB favorite to an underdog in their own division. 

 

Talk about the air going out of the balloon.

 

When your OL can't block anybody, you can't do a thing on offense.

 

And to top it all off, the D has gone back to its 2019 form.

 

Just imagine, you give up 9 points and 200 yards of total offense to a 1-6 team..... AND STILL LOSE. That takes a special kinda inept offense to do that.

 

Can this OL turn it around? Sure, but is their any Bills fan alive that actually believes it is going to happen.

[oldmanfan]

I think it’s actually pretty simple.  Our guys are physically weaker than the guys they play against.  You can see it in the run game; they can’t generate enough force to move guys.  You see it in pass blocking when guys are getting pushed straight back into Josh.  I understand with Dawkins; I don’t think he’s really recovered from Covid.  But the other guys?  Doesn’t matter what the play call is or how the coach coaches if you get manhandled by the opposing players.