Chris Simms on Bills loss

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have two points. 

 

One is, how long the QB holds the ball is in no way a metric for OL effectiveness, when your QB is Josh.  How much of that time he is holding the ball is spent trying to find a guy who is open downfield or will be coming open, while evading defenders and extending the play into scramble drills? 

 

Just like a single long run for 30 yds averaged into 9 2 yard stuffs can look like a respectable 4.8 ypc, a couple of scramble drills where the QB extends the play can skew the time the QB holds the ball.

 

My eyes say that's happening.

 

Second point: when we're winning and scoring high, pundits extoll that Josh is being coached to make his reads deep to shallow, as an aggressive play design.  The problem is that aggression backfires when there isn't time for that.

 

 

 

The post I was also responding to was using next gen to say Josh was taking the short and QUICK throwing. He wasn't quick, and he rarely ever is. 

 

I agree, Josh's style is a pro but also a con at times. I actually don't mind that he holds the ball longer than other QB's because he does have the ability to extend plays. 

 

Hard disagree that implication that Allen's TT metric is because of a couple long scrambles otherwise his game was hit the back foot of his drop and let it go.

To your comment about reading long to short. It is great when he reads long to short and he can make it work. But sometimes he has to read from short to long because that is what the game or his protection dictates. Josh can get away with what he does more often because he is bigger, stronger, better. But sometimes that isn't enough. 

 

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The final play is what happens when you have completely and deservedly lost all faith in your protection.

 

I will give you the rolls out unnecessarily to an extent in that I understand it, but don't condone it. But facing and looking at an open guy on the most critical play of the game, and deciding to try to thread the needle to the moving and covered receiver has nothing to do with the OL. 

[Mango]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have two points. 

 

One is, how long the QB holds the ball is in no way a metric for OL effectiveness, when your QB is Josh.  How much of that time he is holding the ball is spent trying to find a guy who is open downfield or will be coming open, while evading defenders and extending the play into scramble drills? 

 

Just like a single long run for 30 yds averaged into 9 2 yard stuffs can look like a respectable 4.8 ypc, a couple of scramble drills where the QB extends the play can skew the time the QB holds the ball.

 

My eyes say that's happening.

 

Second point: when we're winning and scoring high, pundits extoll that Josh is being coached, and the play is designed for him, to make his reads deep to shallow, an aggressive play design.  The problem is that aggression backfires when there isn't time for deep to shallow progressions.

 

The Bills have never developed nor expected Josh to execute a quick passing game.  Maybe that needs to change, but you really need a TE who can run good routes and get open quickly and at least one other WR who gets open quickly for that.

 

Beasley is open on every play, but he's never been a receiver who gets open quickly.  His playing strength is that if you give him time, he'll lose anyone, but he needs time for that.

 

 

 

Adding on here post edit. 

I think Allen is smart. I also think Allen is making the right pre-snap read more often than not. But I also think he telegraphs a lot. I have criticized our screen game quite a bit. We have been using them more, but they are hard earned yards by the WR or RB because it tends to be snap, stare/wait, throw. The ball catcher on our screens are running through a ton of traffic a lot. Or in some cases, Allen might have the right read on Diggs on the crosser at the line, which is awesome. But he is watching Diggs the whole time to make his break. I would like to see Allen in that situation follow Sanders running the post above him to keep the safety away from Diggs to give himself an easier throw. 

Allen makes throws that nobody else in the league can. But some of that feels self inflicted. 

Some of this feels like a "we don't have the right kind of receivers for our QB to do X- thing" Which feels frustrating after signing our guy to a big contract. 

I think Allen is easily good enough to be our guy forever, but he is still on his learning curve, and has been frustrating this season. 

[Mat68]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

ODJ is not what the Bills need.  Not unless he kicks ass as Guard

What kick ass guard is available?

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

What kick ass guard is available?

reading comprehension? 

plenty of kick ass guards were available in round 2 last draft- but instead we drafted second DE- who is inactive most weeks

going forward Schreff is FA- now that Teller is off market- overpay for him.  Use 1st 3 draft pick 2 OL and RB

 

ODJ is not what the Bills need.  Not unless he kicks ass as Guard

 

where in my post did you think I said some kick ass guard was available? lmao

Edited November 9, 2021 by Pete

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Adding on here post edit. 

I think Allen is smart. I also think Allen is making the right pre-snap read more often than not. But I also think he telegraphs a lot. I have criticized our screen game quite a bit. We have been using them more, but they are hard earned yards by the WR or RB because it tends to be snap, stare/wait, throw. The ball catcher on our screens are running through a ton of traffic a lot. Or in some cases, Allen might have the right read on Diggs on the crosser at the line, which is awesome. But he is watching Diggs the whole time to make his break. I would like to see Allen in that situation follow Sanders running the post above him to keep the safety away from Diggs to give himself an easier throw. 

Allen makes throws that nobody else in the league can. But some of that feels self inflicted. 

Some of this feels like a "we don't have the right kind of receivers for our QB to do X- thing" Which feels frustrating after signing our guy to a big contract. 

I think Allen is easily good enough to be our guy forever, but he is still on his learning curve, and has been frustrating this season. 

Couple points: our screen issues have little to do with Allen's hesitancy to throw them (slow on screen passes is not a thing) and more about lacking  enough athleticism along the oline to sell a block and release with any kind of proficiency. The WR screens will work sometimes in certain looks, usually when the opposing safeties are off and corners are in man. That's more about Diggs' and Beasley's (former) ability to wiggle loose than any great play design or good blocking, however.

 

Any design that has Diggs on a shallow cross and Sanders a post isn't going to need Allen to hold either safety off because he wouldn't be responsible for both of those routes.

[Mat68]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

reading comprehension? 

plenty of kick ass guards were available in round 2 last draft- but instead we drafted second DE- who is inactive most weeks

going forward Schreff is FA- now that Teller is off market- overpay for him.  Use 1st 3 draft pick 2 OL and RB

 

ODJ is not what the Bills need.  Not unless he kicks ass as Guard

 

where in my post did you think I said some kick ass guard was available? lmao

Everyone with eyes sees guard an issue that doesnt mean you cant fix other issues. 

[ngbills]

16 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Starts at 34:40, if I linked this right it should start right at that point. It goes on for about 8 minutes.

 

 

To summarize his thoughts:

 

1) The Bills offense hasn't really been clicking all year, the stats that say otherwise are misleading.

 

2) 47 pass attempts to only 9 rushing attempts from the RBs is game mismanagement in a tight defensive struggle. Since we don't run the ball at all we're too easy to game plan against. He thinks we should at least attempt to run the ball more to give defenses something else to think about. The co-host points out our 3 highest pass attempt games this year are also our 3 losses and all of them stayed within one score pretty much the entire way through.

 

3) Allen tried to do too much to overcome the offensive struggles all on his own. We could have won something like 15-9 if he didn't revert to old tendencies.

 

4) Diggs is the only true game changer on offense (other than Allen) and defenses have figured out how to stop him from taking over the game. He doesn't mention it in this video but he has advocated for the Bills signing Odell Beckham Jr to add another game changing type of talent.

I have been saying all year that the O stats are misleading. I have felt that the offense has been out of sync all season. There have been drives here and there that have looked great. But the overflow has been off. And Allen just looks like he is at max effort all the time. He has bouts of the bad feet. I hate to say it but maybe he worked harder the previous season so his muscle memory was more on point. In general, nothing is coming easy like it does when your clicking. I dont know if its on him, is it the OL, is it the playcalling or preparation? Likely a combo of all of the above.

[ngbills]

16 hours ago, Pete said:

ODJ is not what the Bills need.  Not unless he kicks ass as Guard

 

15 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

I agree with him, but not on talent and OBJ. 

 

We need to get tougher, not a diva. 

 

15 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

OBJ Hasn't been a relevant player in the league since his 3rd season. After he got paid, he's never been the same.

 

14 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

This + 1000! Or tackle.

 

Both OGs and OTs were abused against the Jags as the only guy who played somewhat decent was Morse the center. 

 

I look at things differently though. I see it as game planning, play calling problem. 

 

Can't run the ball with the RBs, don't have time to throw the ball...yet, keep asking the QB to throw it? The QB ends up blaming himself and its the OC that hung him out to dry in my view. 

 

Find play calls that gets the ball out of the QB's hands in under 2 seconds. Run some misdirection run plays to wear the defense out. Jeez, Innovate!!

 

And yes, Stephon Diggs is a receiving "superstar" with a few others right behind him, Beas, Sanders are both pretty damn good at what they do too. Find ways to get Diggs the ball 10 plus times a game. 

 

12 hours ago, Old Coot said:

OBJ is indeed a "game changer" but not in the usual meaning of that phrase.

 

His drama tears a team apart.

 

2 hours ago, benderbender said:

Allen doesn’t have time to throw to the receivers we already have. Can OBJ block? 

 

1 hour ago, Dan said:

How does signing a malcontent WR help the Bills run more than 9 times a game?   
 

 

OBJ provides a WR that can get open right off the line of scrimmage. I dont know if we have that right now. If you focus on Diggs, then both Beasley and Sanders are not guys that are going to dominate a DB at the line. Davis is the closest to that but I dont think they trust him. OBJ would force teams to focus on both Diggs and him much differently than with Beas and Sanders. 

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Couple points: our screen issues have little to do with Allen's hesitancy to throw them (slow on screen passes is not a thing) and more about lacking  enough athleticism along the oline to sell a block and release with any kind of proficiency. The WR screens will work sometimes in certain looks, usually when the opposing safeties are off and corners are in man. That's more about Diggs' and Beasley's (former) ability to wiggle loose than any great play design or good blocking, however.

 

Any design that has Diggs on a shallow cross and Sanders a post isn't going to need Allen to hold either safety off because he wouldn't be responsible for both of those routes.

 

I meant dig and the receiver coming across the field. A safety will absolutely creep up if he reads the play coming across his face. 

Regarding the screen. in a  general sense, I agree that the OL is not athletic enough to pull or get outside. In some cases Allen needs to fire the ball out quickly to counteract the pressure. In others he has to hold the defense back to give his WR some room to work. Peyton was just talking about this a few weeks ago in regards to a bad game Mahomes was having, and a criticism. He didn't hold the defense off before throwing the screen. He also mentioned it as an improvement as the game went on. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

16 hours ago, HappyDays said:

4) Diggs is the only true game changer on offense (other than Allen) and defenses have figured out how to stop him from taking over the game. He doesn't mention it in this video but he has advocated for the Bills signing Odell Beckham Jr to add another game changing type of talent.

 

I agree with this, and even then, Diggs isn't a physical mismatch on the field. 

 

That's what struck me Sunday, without Knox, we have no physical mismatches on the field. 

 

You can't base an offense around Cole Beasley underneath, or Sanders trying to get deep. If Diggs can't be the go-to player, and Knox is out the Bills have no other options. 

 

Since Tennessee we have become rather obsessed with making Zack Moss a feature player in this offense for some reason. 

[ngbills]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

 

 

Since Tennessee we have become rather obsessed with making Zack Moss a feature player in this offense for some reason. 

It is insane. Dont get it. Moss has 25 targets this season in only 6.5 games. He had 18 all of last season. 

[Nihilarian]

14 minutes ago, ngbills said:

OBJ provides a WR that can get open right off the line of scrimmage. I dont know if we have that right now. If you focus on Diggs, then both Beasley and Sanders are not guys that are going to dominate a DB at the line. Davis is the closest to that but I dont think they trust him. OBJ would force teams to focus on both Diggs and him much differently than with Beas and Sanders. 

If OBJ was that good at being open right off the line...then why wasn't Cleveland throwing to him more often?

 

One game the guy had 7 targets and had only 2 receptions. His catch percentage in Cleveland is about 50%.  Diggs is about 1000% better at this time.

 

The problem with the offense is that Josh needs time in the pocket to throw the called plays... and he isn't getting it. Time to change the game plan, play calling to slants, quick outs to get the ball out in under 2 seconds. This is all on the OC.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, ngbills said:

It is insane. Dont get it. Moss has 25 targets this season in only 6.5 games. He had 18 all of last season. 

I don't think Zack Moss brings anything unique to this team. 

 

He fits that Sean McDermott slow, plodder type back. It wasn't surprising that we sniffed around Adrian Peterson, that's McDermott. 

 

But with Moss, an example I can't stand is that he immediately gets to come into the game in the Red Zone, as if he is dynamic weapon. Singletary has to go to the bench and it becomes Moss time, why?

 

He talks about "business decisions" and it's like dude, you're a fringe NFL running back with zero speed. 

 

Every time we chose to get him the ball instead of Isaiah McKenzie on a dump-off, I don't get it. 

 

 

[SCBills]

45 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't think Zack Moss brings anything unique to this team. 

 

He fits that Sean McDermott slow, plodder type back. It wasn't surprising that we sniffed around Adrian Peterson, that's McDermott. 

 

But with Moss, an example I can't stand is that he immediately gets to come into the game in the Red Zone, as if he is dynamic weapon. Singletary has to go to the bench and it becomes Moss time, why?

 

He talks about "business decisions" and it's like dude, you're a fringe NFL running back with zero speed. 

 

Every time we chose to get him the ball instead of Isaiah McKenzie on a dump-off, I don't get it. 

 

 

 

If we're only going to run with a RB 10x per game, see if we can't use McKenzie in a Cordarelle Patterson role.  

 

I know we're getting into off the wall suggestions here, but we desperately need guys out there that can turn a 5 yard dump off into 15-20.  Without Knox, that element has been nonexistent. 

[ngbills]

53 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't think Zack Moss brings anything unique to this team. 

 

He fits that Sean McDermott slow, plodder type back. It wasn't surprising that we sniffed around Adrian Peterson, that's McDermott. 

 

But with Moss, an example I can't stand is that he immediately gets to come into the game in the Red Zone, as if he is dynamic weapon. Singletary has to go to the bench and it becomes Moss time, why?

 

He talks about "business decisions" and it's like dude, you're a fringe NFL running back with zero speed. 

 

Every time we chose to get him the ball instead of Isaiah McKenzie on a dump-off, I don't get it. 

 

 

Agreed - I would at least like to see them mix in the McK jetsweep or give Breida a shot. Breida can at least hit the hole faster meaning OL need to hold the block less time. 

 

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

If we're only going to run with a RB 10x per game, see if we can't use McKenzie in a Cordarelle Patterson role.  

 

I know we're getting into off the wall suggestions here, but we desperately need guys out there that can turn a 5 yard dump off into 15-20.  Without Knox, that element has been nonexistent. 

Agreed - even Breida can run a jet sweep 

[corta765]

18 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

Yup…. I said this team has two difference maker on offence and maybe one on defence with White.  

 

Agreed. I know Bills fans really love to hype our team, but the Bills are more driven by a deep collection of B- to B+ type players with maybe 3-4 true A caliber guys being Allen, Diggs, White, & I would argue Milano when healthy which is his biggest caveat. The depth helps in terms of making the team competitive across the board, but they are missing at least one if not two guys to put them over the top for real. The defensive line is good example of this because they are solid as a group at DT/DE but realistically there is no true star or alpha player just guys playing their role at a high level. Now nothing necessarily wrong with this when you have Allen at QB especially, but the Bills look a lot to me like the Packers of the last decade where they have a stud QB, WR, one two guys on defense and then just depth not true alpha difference makers. That is the missing piece and its hard to get.

[Mango]

16 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Agreed - I would at least like to see them mix in the McK jetsweep or give Breida a shot. Breida can at least hit the hole faster meaning OL need to hold the block less time. 

 

Agreed - even Breida can run a jet sweep 

This, I would love to see us try and get outside more. We have a knack for just sort of: 

1. Pounding the ball at a wall of people between the tackles (success or skill be damned)

2. Taking guys who are either decent receiving threats and/or have some outside speed, and just not dressing them at all so that we can rinse and repeat no. 1, 

[Niagara Dude]

4 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Agreed. I know Bills fans really love to hype our team, but the Bills are more driven by a deep collection of B- to B+ type players with maybe 3-4 true A caliber guys being Allen, Diggs, White, & I would argue Milano when healthy which is his biggest caveat. The depth helps in terms of making the team competitive across the board, but they are missing at least one if not two guys to put them over the top for real. The defensive line is good example of this because they are solid as a group at DT/DE but realistically there is no true star or alpha player just guys playing their role at a high level. Now nothing necessarily wrong with this when you have Allen at QB especially, but the Bills look a lot to me like the Packers of the last decade where they have a stud QB, WR, one two guys on defense and then just depth not true alpha difference makers. That is the missing piece and its hard to get.

[Success]

17 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Some questions...

 

Simms said.. "the Bills talent is not that great.. there is no game changers other than Diggs and Diggs is not that much of a game changer compared to other top receivers" ...

 

Do we agree with this? Certainly wasnt the case last year.. he was great.. and what I would call a game changer.. now is it the same this year ? No.. but what are the reasons for this? Its too simple to say that "he has been figured out"...

 

Simms said.. "' they dont run the football.. they dont even try"...

 

Yes this is right.. because when they try they lose yards... so should they keep doing something that is not working?

At least bring Antonio Williams and try something different ...

 

As to the first part - I do NOT agree that Diggs is the only game changer.  I was thrilled about our WR corps heading into the season. Very few teams have 2 guys with elite talent like Diggs - but Sanders, Beasley and Davis are all capable of big plays & games (as well as Knox when healthy).

 

Davis has been a bit of an enigma to me.  It felt like he was breaking out last year, and I thought he'd take that next step this year.  I would love to see him get more involved.

 

The run game is tough, though. We don't have a mix of backs - they're all basically the same in terms of skillset and potential.  They're all # 2's.

 

[Niagara Dude]

Just now, Niagara Dude said:

5 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Agreed. I know Bills fans really love to hype our team, but the Bills are more driven by a deep collection of B- to B+ type players with maybe 3-4 true A caliber guys being Allen, Diggs, White, & I would argue Milano when healthy which is his biggest caveat. The depth helps in terms of making the team competitive across the board, but they are missing at least one if not two guys to put them over the top for real. The defensive line is good example of this because they are solid as a group at DT/DE but realistically there is no true star or alpha player just guys playing their role at a high level. Now nothing necessarily wrong with this when you have Allen at QB especially, but the Bills look a lot to me like the Packers of the last decade where they have a stud QB, WR, one two guys on defense and then just depth not true alpha difference makers. That is the missing piece and its hard to get.

I agree,  Milano is solid must not in pro bowl level.  Where we really missed on is some of the free agent signing that Beane spent good money and got little back in return. Star/Addision/Klein/Morse were given good size deals and really have not offered much.  Even though i am not happy with the roster right now,  i know it's always easier to fix when you have pro bowl level QB who is only 25.  We just need to hit on some picks because guys like Singletary/Ford look like busts and then get lucky signing some free agents who contribute.  The foundation is there,  add a couple more difference makers,  maybe each on one side of the ball. 

 

End of the day the Bills finally GOT THE QB and that is the toughest to get