It’s Daboll, please fire him

[Coach Tuesday]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded is absolutely it. I think where I am critical of Daboll is he is getting away from what we do too quickly because he is coaching scared of his oline. We ran 15 screens last week. Fifteen!! We are not a screen team that is featuring something we are not good at and not comfortable with. I didn't count how many there were yesterday but is was multiple. I will have to go back and count. I'd rather him try and call our offense and just say to Josh "when the jailbreaks come, throw it away and get out of dodge"

I’m starting to disagree here.  Daboll called 9 runs in a 9-6 game.  His line can’t hold their pass blocks long enough for deep passing routes to materialize, and Allen fixates on the big play and won’t take underneath options if there is eye candy downfield.

 

I’m starting to think they should stay in 11 or 12 personnel, commit to a running and play action game (NOT RPO, though), and eliminate the deep options until Allen, the line and the backs adjust their style of play.  Otherwise teams will continue to keep their safeties deep and dare Allen to throw into coverage, and he simply cannot stay disciplined enough to avoid it.

 

I’m on the fence with this.  You’re right that the safer approach is to lean into your strengths but I fear we’ll just keep seeing the same result over and over again if we don’t fundamentally change the approach.

 

In the offseason I would go shopping for a new line coach, some guards and new backs.  Beane should do some serious self-scouting on his evaluation skills wrt the interior line.

[racketmaster]

Didn’t Daboll just lose both his grandparents that he was very close with in the last month. Maybe he has been a little distracted as the game plans and adjustments have been lacking. I expect the jet sweeps and some creativity to return. It was not long ago that most fans were afraid he would leave for a head coaching job. We could use Brown and Knox back as well but I’m sure they will figure it out. 

[bigduke6]

i think Beane knew we had a less than stellar line by the play in the AFCG.   hard not to miss it.    just wasnt the right year to rebuild it.  was a weak OLine draft and with the cap # we had last offseason he couldnt do much with free agency.    so he took the path of least resistance and addressed the DLine in a deep DLine draft.   makes sense.    

 

i fully expect Beane to address the OLine this offseason,  if only to make the depth better,  but hopefully to actually improve the starting line.

its just not that easy to address everything all at once and not mortgage the teams future.   

 

we all see the Rams and Tampa loading their teams up,  but its definitely at the expense of the future.   they may win now,  gonna be huge problems down the road however.   if they dont win now,  will go down as huge gambles that failed miserably.     this is more about the Rams tho,  Tampa loaded their team with low cost old names without throwing away draft picks, and,  they still have Brady. 

6 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

Didn’t Daboll just lose both his grandparents that he was very close with in the last month. Maybe he has been a little distracted as the game plans and adjustments have been lacking. I expect the jet sweeps and some creativity to return. It was not long ago that most fans were afraid he would leave for a head coaching job. We could use Brown and Knox back as well but I’m sure they will figure it out. 

one of the first things that popped into my mind as well.   these guys are still human beings,   no matter how professional you are,  things still affect u.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I’m starting to disagree here.  Daboll called 9 runs in a 9-6 game.  His line can’t hold their pass blocks long enough for deep passing routes to materialize, and Allen fixates on the big play and won’t take underneath options if there is eye candy downfield.

 

I’m starting to think they should stay in 11 or 12 personnel, commit to a running and play action game (NOT RPO, though), and eliminate the deep options until Allen, the line and the backs adjust their style of play.  Otherwise teams will continue to keep their safeties deep and dare Allen to throw into coverage, and he simply cannot stay disciplined enough to avoid it.

 

I’m on the fence with this.  You’re right that the safer approach is to lean into your strengths but I fear we’ll just keep seeing the same result over and over again if we don’t fundamentally change the approach.

 

In the offseason I would go shopping for a new line coach, some guards and new backs.  Beane should do some serious self-scouting on his evaluation skills wrt the interior line.

 

I mean I wouldn't be against an absolute commitment to big formation and try and go totally the other way. I am just not sure our personnel is a great fit for that. We don't have a proper full back or a real blocking tight end. Our best blocking receiver among our starters is our star receiver (Kumerow can block but him being out there is often a tell he is blocking). 

 

I am open to trying anything that isn't just throw a load of screens and run Singletary on the same 4 runs though at this point. 

[colin]

the more time we have to prep for teams, the worse our O plays in the start (i think some tv guy pointed that out).  Pittz, first half of miami, etc.  that shows me a coaching staff who just doesn't get the team ready, they don't figure something out to give the o an advantage.

 

while i agree our OL is bad, it is not worse than the 3 back ups the jags had today, who played better than our line vs a better D than theirs.  Jax's best OL was out as a surprise, and they just plugged a guy in.  that guy is not as good as the starter, he's way worse.  we have been sliding OTs to G, started a rookie at OT, and sliding that waste of a roster spot fatty ford in and out.  that combined w the fact that we ditched wyatt teller, and to a lesser extent q spain, makes me think our OL coaching doesn't really know what they are doing.

 

people credit dabol for these stats, but how often are our drives rescued by allen just doing some kind of superman thing?  basically most of our scoring drives are like that, that's not on coaching, that's just superior talent.  

 

the jags ran a blitz heavy scheme mixing in cover 2 and some other wrinkles, and the bills O only ever seemed to call plays that gave the O a very high level of difficulty.  remember the cover zero jail break blitz that allen sort of rolled away from (free rusher) and hit beaz for like 3 yards and a first?  that to me is an example of how our scheme/coaching/preparation just simply doesn't put our O in an advantage situation, and it's really just our O talent having to perform magic.

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

That run and fumble is all on Allen. It’s an option play and he always takes the ball instead of handing it off. It’s extremely predictable at this point. Allen was absolutely terrible yesterday. That second down play on their final possession was indicative — he tries for the crazy throw after he starts running when he probably would have gotten the first on a run. The hero-ball throw to Diggs on the final play was inexplicable given that Sanders was open and at the first down marker.

Agreed, but as I said above, Allen deserves a lot of the blame. He made so many bad decisions yesterday. He wa of course not helped by his terrible line.

 

I thought Josh did well in trying to overcome the line first half. He was very poor after half time. 

[oldmanfan]

Daboll isn't getting manhandled at the line like our guys are.  That said, he needs to accept our line just can't sustain blocks and call plays to minimize that effect.

[Wayne Cubed]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean I wouldn't be against an absolute commitment to big formation and try and go totally the other way. I am just not sure our personnel is a great fit for that. We don't have a proper full back or a real blocking tight end. Our best blocking receiver among our starters is our star receiver (Kumerow can block but him being out there is often a tell he is blocking). 

 

I am open to trying anything that isn't just throw a load of screens and run Singletary on the same 4 runs though at this point. 

 

Not being funny but we have tried a couple 21 and 22 personnel and it just does not work. This OL, certainly the one playing yesterday, can not run block. Or maybe they can't run block the way the offense is designed to run block. I'm not sure. Daboll needs to figure out how to punish teams in that Cover 2 shell with 11 personnel. And maybe Knox coming back will help them because it was obvious Josh doesn't have a lot of confidence in Sweeney.

[Shaw66]

I'll join here without having read much of this thread - just some of the recent comments about the offense. 

 

First, Gunner and others are right - it's about the offensive line.   If you don't win in the trenches, you don't win, especially this time of year.   NBC's broadcasters, pregame and during the game, all missed the point.  They were heaping love all night on the Rams, and it wasn't until there were about 4 minutes left that Collinsworth finally said, "You know, the Titans are built to win the battles in the trenches.  You don't want to have to play them."  Well, duh, haven't they been watching the Titans for the past few weeks?  They've been awesome, starting with beating the Bills.  Why?  Because they win in the trenches.  

 

Second, Collinsworth has been bashed around here a lot, but he says some insightful stuff.   In particular last night, in the first half he kept explaining how McVay had gotten away from his Goff offense because Stafford likes to stay in and throw from the pocket.   Last night, he was getting murdered in the pocket, because the Titans were merciless with their pass rush.  Unlike, Daboll, McVay had an answer - the Rams came out in the second half and gotten Stafford out of the pocket.   They ran a lot of misdirection, with wide-zone blocking to one side and Stafford rolling to the other side.   In the second half, Stafford had time and the offense started to move.   (Still, the Titans forced field goals instead of TDs, so the Titans won.)

 

Now, the Bills probably can't make play action work by running wide-zone play action, because they haven't run the wide-zone very effectively.  The point isn't what McVay did; the point is that he analyzed what the Titans were doing to stop the Rams and in the second half he began to nullify that strength of the Titans and attack where their defense left them vulnerable.   It's Daboll's job, and McDermott's, to do that.  

 

There's always a place to attack.  If you have good football players, there's always a way to exploit weaknesses in the defense.   That's why Belichick is so difficult to beat.  He always can move the ball, and he always can find a way to slow down your offense.  That's what McDermott is trying to be, and it's how his defense is playing.   His offense is another story. 

[Negan]

Go 5 wide every play, enough of the waste of time first down bs handoffs that never work with this team

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, Negan said:

Go 5 wide every play, enough of the waste of time first down bs handoffs that never work with this team

That will get Josh killed.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Not being funny but we have tried a couple 21 and 22 personnel and it just does not work. This OL, certainly the one playing yesterday, can not run block. Or maybe they can't run block the way the offense is designed to run block. I'm not sure. Daboll needs to figure out how to punish teams in that Cover 2 shell with 11 personnel. And maybe Knox coming back will help them because it was obvious Josh doesn't have a lot of confidence in Sweeney.

 

Yea that is my instinct too, but I can see @Coach Tuesday's thought process and at this point I am willing to listen to any suggestions that are not over the top reactionary "fire everyone"

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Negan said:

Go 5 wide every play, enough of the waste of time first down bs handoffs that never work with this team

 

Negan, Bill's tried that with the Steelers didn't work.  Teams rush 4 and use rest as coverage. The o-Line been struggling all year. The RBS are not that good. It is difficult to fix. The Bills can do this, have lots to work on. Know they can make adjustments.  Someway to improve.

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

That will get Josh killed.

 

Right

[Coach Tuesday]

8 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Not being funny but we have tried a couple 21 and 22 personnel and it just does not work. This OL, certainly the one playing yesterday, can not run block. Or maybe they can't run block the way the offense is designed to run block. I'm not sure. Daboll needs to figure out how to punish teams in that Cover 2 shell with 11 personnel. And maybe Knox coming back will help them because it was obvious Josh doesn't have a lot of confidence in Sweeney.

See I don’t buy this.  Every offensive line can run block.  It’s much easier than pass blocking and helps the line establish an aggressiveness and rhythm.  With the Bills the problem seems schematic to me - precision blocking and disguising the running plays as pass plays simply doesn’t work with the level of “talent” they’ve collected (and vastly under-coached and overpaid).  Go heavy and pound the rock until the line gets in a rhythm and starts to establish the LOS.  
 

It just simply is NOT that hard to run the ball in today’s NFL against light defenses built to stop the pass.  Something is fundamentally wrong with their entire approach and let’s be honest it’s been a problem for the entire Daboll era.

[Wayne Cubed]

31 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

See I don’t buy this.  Every offensive line can run block.  It’s much easier than pass blocking and helps the line establish an aggressiveness and rhythm.  With the Bills the problem seems schematic to me - precision blocking and disguising the running plays as pass plays simply doesn’t work with the level of “talent” they’ve collected (and vastly under-coached and overpaid).  Go heavy and pound the rock until the line gets in a rhythm and starts to establish the LOS.  
 

It just simply is NOT that hard to run the ball in today’s NFL against light defenses built to stop the pass.  Something is fundamentally wrong with their entire approach and let’s be honest it’s been a problem for the entire Daboll era.

 

And you may be correct, that's why I said maybe it's something to do with what they are asked to do in their run blocking within this scheme. The point still remains this current OL can't run block. And I think it's highly unliking at this point Daboll or Johnson is going to completely change how they've been teaching the OL to run block. I just don't think they have the time to do it in season.

 

Also, I'm wondering why Feliciano was allowed to lose weight.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Wayne Cubed

[FireChans]

57 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I’m starting to disagree here.  Daboll called 9 runs in a 9-6 game.  His line can’t hold their pass blocks long enough for deep passing routes to materialize, and Allen fixates on the big play and won’t take underneath options if there is eye candy downfield.

 

I’m starting to think they should stay in 11 or 12 personnel, commit to a running and play action game (NOT RPO, though), and eliminate the deep options until Allen, the line and the backs adjust their style of play.  Otherwise teams will continue to keep their safeties deep and dare Allen to throw into coverage, and he simply cannot stay disciplined enough to avoid it.

 

I’m on the fence with this.  You’re right that the safer approach is to lean into your strengths but I fear we’ll just keep seeing the same result over and over again if we don’t fundamentally change the approach.

 

In the offseason I would go shopping for a new line coach, some guards and new backs.  Beane should do some serious self-scouting on his evaluation skills wrt the interior line.

I’m not sure we are capable of making such an adjustment to our offense mid-season. 

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'll join here without having read much of this thread - just some of the recent comments about the offense. 

 

First, Gunner and others are right - it's about the offensive line.   If you don't win in the trenches, you don't win, especially this time of year.   NBC's broadcasters, pregame and during the game, all missed the point.  They were heaping love all night on the Rams, and it wasn't until there were about 4 minutes left that Collinsworth finally said, "You know, the Titans are built to win the battles in the trenches.  You don't want to have to play them."  Well, duh, haven't they been watching the Titans for the past few weeks?  They've been awesome, starting with beating the Bills.  Why?  Because they win in the trenches.  

 

Second, Collinsworth has been bashed around here a lot, but he says some insightful stuff.   In particular last night, in the first half he kept explaining how McVay had gotten away from his Goff offense because Stafford likes to stay in and throw from the pocket.   Last night, he was getting murdered in the pocket, because the Titans were merciless with their pass rush.  Unlike, Daboll, McVay had an answer - the Rams came out in the second half and gotten Stafford out of the pocket.   They ran a lot of misdirection, with wide-zone blocking to one side and Stafford rolling to the other side.   In the second half, Stafford had time and the offense started to move.   (Still, the Titans forced field goals instead of TDs, so the Titans won.)

 

Now, the Bills probably can't make play action work by running wide-zone play action, because they haven't run the wide-zone very effectively.  The point isn't what McVay did; the point is that he analyzed what the Titans were doing to stop the Rams and in the second half he began to nullify that strength of the Titans and attack where their defense left them vulnerable.   It's Daboll's job, and McDermott's, to do that.  

 

There's always a place to attack.  If you have good football players, there's always a way to exploit weaknesses in the defense.   That's why Belichick is so difficult to beat.  He always can move the ball, and he always can find a way to slow down your offense.  That's what McDermott is trying to be, and it's how his defense is playing.   His offense is another story. 

We adjusted to short passes and screen in the second half. it may have been lost in the melt down of Josh, but we definitely adjusted.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'll join here without having read much of this thread - just some of the recent comments about the offense. 

 

First, Gunner and others are right - it's about the offensive line.   If you don't win in the trenches, you don't win, especially this time of year.   NBC's broadcasters, pregame and during the game, all missed the point.  They were heaping love all night on the Rams, and it wasn't until there were about 4 minutes left that Collinsworth finally said, "You know, the Titans are built to win the battles in the trenches.  You don't want to have to play them."  Well, duh, haven't they been watching the Titans for the past few weeks?  They've been awesome, starting with beating the Bills.  Why?  Because they win in the trenches.  

 

Second, Collinsworth has been bashed around here a lot, but he says some insightful stuff.   In particular last night, in the first half he kept explaining how McVay had gotten away from his Goff offense because Stafford likes to stay in and throw from the pocket.   Last night, he was getting murdered in the pocket, because the Titans were merciless with their pass rush.  Unlike, Daboll, McVay had an answer - the Rams came out in the second half and gotten Stafford out of the pocket.   They ran a lot of misdirection, with wide-zone blocking to one side and Stafford rolling to the other side.   In the second half, Stafford had time and the offense started to move.   (Still, the Titans forced field goals instead of TDs, so the Titans won.)

 

Now, the Bills probably can't make play action work by running wide-zone play action, because they haven't run the wide-zone very effectively.  The point isn't what McVay did; the point is that he analyzed what the Titans were doing to stop the Rams and in the second half he began to nullify that strength of the Titans and attack where their defense left them vulnerable.   It's Daboll's job, and McDermott's, to do that.  

 

There's always a place to attack.  If you have good football players, there's always a way to exploit weaknesses in the defense.   That's why Belichick is so difficult to beat.  He always can move the ball, and he always can find a way to slow down your offense.  That's what McDermott is trying to be, and it's how his defense is playing.   His offense is another story. 

 

You failed to mention that bobby hart - the turnstile - played meaningful snaps at LT in that win for the Titans.  And you wouldn't have noticed... so something scheme based needs to change here.  

 

I don't think you need to fire Daboll, but they need to simplify some stuff here.  Stunts and twists were killing them all game, boettger was getting pushed back, and williams and dawkins seemed to struggle mightily with speed rushers. 

 

Essentially it was a pin your ears back and rush sort of game, and we couldn't get anything to work - when we should be running draw plays, screens, and just general RPOs out of shotgun.  If you iso diggs or sanders to one side and they play bail coverage there should be a nice window between the linebackers and the corner in cover 2 - but if the LB play the pass every time you run.  They need to figure out how to run the friggin ball, simple as that.  

[Dopey]

To the Josh Allen jockstrap holders, stop it! If even a bad word is said about him , you guys go crazy. He sucked yesterday. He admitted to it. To many turnovers. We win if he doesn't play hero ball. He did exactly what Mahomes is being ridiculed for. "But it's our Josh, it can't be his fault'.! 

'Oh, the past 32 games Josh has been better than Mahomes". We actually had someone create a thread about it. Josh is not God. Hell, he's not even Mahomes. If you disagree, at least put his jockstrap away before you comment. The smelll is getting to you.

[BBills_88]

Not making any excuses, but Dabol has not been the same since his grandparents death.  

 

He should take a few weeks to get his head together, the team should give Ken Dorsey the OC position while Dabol comes back to his senses. 

 

His play calling has changed and he has not been adjusting well to defenses as much. 

 

[Billever76]

14 hours ago, FireChans said:

Jesus Christ man. so they are squatting on the short stuff, squatting on the run game, not letting us throw deep?

 

MAYBE, just MAYBE, the Bills played like ass instead.

We have no intermediate or deep passes even drawn up lol.....lots of plays yesterday EVERYONE WAS WITHIN 6 OR 7 YARDS of the los....literally every offensive player clogging the short field....kinda made the jags have to only defend 10 yards of the field lol.....there was plays to be made problem is we didnt dial them up to exploit what Jacksonville was doing lol