How do you deep down, really feel about this defense?

[PrimeTime101]

I think our pass offense is solid

Our run defense still scares me against run heavy offenses.

 

Its not often a team has a #1 offense and a #1 defense. lets see how long this rides.

[Shaw66]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you there. McCourty isn't a stud now, he is 30 freaking 4, but there was a period in the middle of the last decade - essentially the years New England kept making Superbowls - where McCourty was absolutely a stud. He was an elite safety. A second team all pro on 3 occasions in that run and that is no mistake. He was outstanding. Bill deserves some credit for it because he was a converted corner but McCourty was an extremely talented player. 

 

Edit: and I am calling Tre White a stud as well by the way, maybe I am reading your post wrong but it sounded like you were saying people weren't? White is absolutely an elite player. He is the only elite player the Bills have on defense.

I didn't intend to get into a debate about the talents of individual players, mostly because I simply am not well informed about that.  I admit my language was sloppy. 

 

When I was talking about studs, I was talking about the 10 or 15 names that are regularly talked about as "the" guys.   The premier shut-down corners - Gilmore had that reputation, the Jalen Ramseys, the Watts, the Aaron Donalds.   The guys who are standout players.   As I said in an earlier post, I think in a different defense, White might be one of those guys.   If Belichick had him, he might be on an island every play, all game, against the number 1 receiver on the other team.  But White isn't used that way - he's in a system that plays a lot of zone and has a lot of wrinkles.  In that kind of system, a player's pure physical greatness is hidden to some extent, because the player isn't turned loose to be an extraordinary playmaker like Bruce Smith was or like Troy Polamalu was.  White's asked to do a lot of things that help his teammates rather than show off his pure physical skills.   And White is really valuable to the Bills because he's willing to do it.  He understands that having a good team is more important than being named All-Pro. 

 

So, I'm not going to argue with you about how great White is because frankly, I don't know.  What I do know is that he is great within this system.  And, to some extent, I feel the same way about Hyde, and maybe Poyer, too.  In a different system, at Arizona, Hyde may have the rep that Budda Baker has.  I think Hyde's incredibly talented and really smart, so if you turned him loose, he might be spectacular.   But the whole defense is about using the talents of each player to make his teammates' jobs easier.   Win your share of your one-on-one battles, make your share of the tackles (and don't miss your tackles) - that's the physical, one-on-one stuff, but also play your position really well - know your assignment, manage your gaps, protect your zone, do a lot of routine stuff that isn't glamorous but that makes the whole machine run smoothly, that makes each of your teammates better.  It's designed to be truly synergistic, to have the whole be better than the sum of its parts.  

 

My point throughout this hasn't been about who's a stud and who isn't.  My point is that this system doesn't require studs.   If Hyde and Milano and Rousseau are short of true stud status, McDermott doesn't care.   If he and Beane can come up will 11 near-studs like those three, then McDermott is going to have a top-five defense year after year.   What really puts him over the top is have a true stud or two mixed in, a White if you want to call him a stud, and an Edmunds, if he could raise his game another notch or two.  But for McDermott, the studs are less important than the synergy he gets from getting good football players to play a a sophisticated team concept. 

[Rockinon]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with all of us and I appreciate that people are talking about it.  I didn't see it until this conversation.  

 

The interdependency of the players is key - they know each other and they are committed to this - well, uh - this process.   You can see how they've gotten better, building on year after year, getting more sophisticated, nuanced.   Part of the process is going to be working younger people in, because there has to be a continuous rotation.  Someone has to be behind, a new corner has to come in to replace Wallace and be the successor to Tre.   It's a constant building process, with young talent coming in and learning the process, raising their game to the level of the veterans.  They have to be in line waiting.  We won't realize they are there and that good until the vets start getting let go, to our dismay. 

 

Remember how amazing it was when the Pats caught Lawyer Milloy, and then the Bills signed him?   He was part of their powerhouse (or so we thought) safety combination.  The Pats, we were told, had mismanaged their cap and didn't have room to sign Milloy.   He wouldn't do a team-friendly deal.   The Pats said, well, then, good-bye.  Turned out Milloy was a very good but not great player who succeeded because of the great team defense he played in.  He was the first of many Patriot "stars"  Belichick let go.  Little by little, we're going to see that happening with this team.  Guys we really like are going to move on, and the Bills always will have someone behind him.  

 

  It's quite impressive how this team is built.  

Working younger guys in is key, yes. And we are all ready seeing that play out. Cody Ford for instance, as a rookie was tasked with learning both Guard and Tackle positions. He has had his ups and downs. Some would say more downs than ups. It's been reported that he is being coached fundamentals while sitting out. It'll be interesting to see how he does in this game. There is also a rookie CB that was pushing Levi Wallace that eventually will get his shot. Then there are guys like Ed Oliver who had to play in Star's absence last year and this year is benefiting from playing beside him. Then there are rookies that are so talented, the coaches are finding it hard to keep off the field. I'm thinking of Greg Rousseau and Spencer Brown.

 

It's fascinating watching how these youngsters are handling adversity. I think as they mature, become wiser, become a more complete team mate, we are going to be pleasantly surprised. They are in a system that is teaching them to be the best version of themself. I'm very optimistic about this team, not only for this year, but also for years to come.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

Working younger guys in is key, yes. And we are all ready seeing that play out. Cody Ford for instance, as a rookie was tasked with learning both Guard and Tackle positions. He has had his ups and downs. Some would say more downs than ups. It's been reported that he is being coached fundamentals while sitting out. It'll be interesting to see how he does in this game. There is also a rookie CB that was pushing Levi Wallace that eventually will get his shot. Then there are guys like Ed Oliver who had to play in Star's absence last year and this year is benefiting from playing beside him. Then there are rookies that are so talented, the coaches are finding it hard to keep off the field. I'm thinking of Greg Rousseau and Spencer Brown.

 

It's fascinating watching how these youngsters are handling adversity. I think as they mature, become wiser, become a more complete team mate, we are going to be pleasantly surprised. They are in a system that is teaching them to be the best version of themself. I'm very optimistic about this team, not only for this year, but also for years to come.

I agree.  I think that's exactly what's happening, and it's all happening by design.  And that design has both a short-term and a long-term benefit.  Long term, of course, it means, that when a guy leaves in free agency or retires, his replacement, or at least a decent candidate to be the replacement, is already on the team. 

 

It's in the short term, however, where we will see the real benefit, and it's the benefit that Belichick was able to achieve.   In the short term, when a player goes down, there's a young player who already knows the system and who plays surprisingly well.  One reason he plays well is that the system is designed to be a cooperative defense, and when a new players steps in, the coaches can tweak the assignments of other guys to lighten the load for the new guy.   They can protect him as he really works his way into the defense.   Belichick has done for two decades - some player goes down, and an undrafted second-year guy steps in with no apparent effect on the quality of the team play.

 

There's always a Boettker or a Bates or a Jaquan Johnson or a Dane Jackson or a Zimmer who's ready to step in, and the system always can adjust to the new guy's strengths and weaknesses.   

 

All in all, it's just a better way to build a defense, and a team, because you're never dependent on guy.  Except the QB.  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Better than last year thats for sure, would like to see more sacks but at least we are not getting run over since Star came back.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

If Milano finishes out the season the way he’s started are we elevating him to elite at his position? 

 

I tend to need to see two years of elite play before I move someone into that category. Too many Kyle Fullers and Peyton Hillis'. I think Milano is established in that next bracket down though. 

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I didn't intend to get into a debate about the talents of individual players, mostly because I simply am not well informed about that.  I admit my language was sloppy. 

 

When I was talking about studs, I was talking about the 10 or 15 names that are regularly talked about as "the" guys.   The premier shut-down corners - Gilmore had that reputation, the Jalen Ramseys, the Watts, the Aaron Donalds.   The guys who are standout players.   As I said in an earlier post, I think in a different defense, White might be one of those guys.   If Belichick had him, he might be on an island every play, all game, against the number 1 receiver on the other team.  But White isn't used that way - he's in a system that plays a lot of zone and has a lot of wrinkles.  In that kind of system, a player's pure physical greatness is hidden to some extent, because the player isn't turned loose to be an extraordinary playmaker like Bruce Smith was or like Troy Polamalu was.  White's asked to do a lot of things that help his teammates rather than show off his pure physical skills.   And White is really valuable to the Bills because he's willing to do it.  He understands that having a good team is more important than being named All-Pro. 

 

So, I'm not going to argue with you about how great White is because frankly, I don't know.  What I do know is that he is great within this system.  And, to some extent, I feel the same way about Hyde, and maybe Poyer, too.  In a different system, at Arizona, Hyde may have the rep that Budda Baker has.  I think Hyde's incredibly talented and really smart, so if you turned him loose, he might be spectacular.   But the whole defense is about using the talents of each player to make his teammates' jobs easier.   Win your share of your one-on-one battles, make your share of the tackles (and don't miss your tackles) - that's the physical, one-on-one stuff, but also play your position really well - know your assignment, manage your gaps, protect your zone, do a lot of routine stuff that isn't glamorous but that makes the whole machine run smoothly, that makes each of your teammates better.  It's designed to be truly synergistic, to have the whole be better than the sum of its parts.  

 

My point throughout this hasn't been about who's a stud and who isn't.  My point is that this system doesn't require studs.   If Hyde and Milano and Rousseau are short of true stud status, McDermott doesn't care.   If he and Beane can come up will 11 near-studs like those three, then McDermott is going to have a top-five defense year after year.   What really puts him over the top is have a true stud or two mixed in, a White if you want to call him a stud, and an Edmunds, if he could raise his game another notch or two.  But for McDermott, the studs are less important than the synergy he gets from getting good football players to play a a sophisticated team concept. 

 

Tre White has been an all-pro though. Even playing in a system that is, I agree about team defense. And on the safeties I think Hyde is valued about right. I think Poyer is the one who league wide doesn't get the respect his play deserves.