How do you deep down, really feel about this defense?

[Magox]

The Bills are certainly playing relatively speaking elite level defense.   The defensive backfield is about as good any defense in the league, White is playing his usual exceptional level football, Levi Wallace is having his best year, Taron is an elite Nickle backer and the safeties are playing top notch.   The linebackers are having a phenomenal year, Milano is playing All pro calibur football and Edmunds is playing very well.  The Defensive line has done a great job at stopping the run and getting solid pass pressure with their front four.

 

Cohesively they are a unit that is in sync. 

 

Where Buffalo's defense can struggle and this isn't just speaking to the second half of the Titan's game but goes back the last few years is they tend to struggle with teams that are playing good run/pass balance.   When teams begin to run somewhat effectively, our Linebackers tend to get sucked in to the play action and that opens up the pass.  The Titan's match up well against the Bills (even though I do believe we would beat them 8 times out of 10) and teams like Cleveland and Indianapolis probably would as well.   

 

The Bills aside from that one large run by King Henry did a pretty good job against their run aside from a couple 2nd half gashes.  That play not only produced a touchdown, but it mentally impacted the Linebackers the rest of the game.   They should have just continued to keep playing the way they had been but they felt obliged to play more against the run.   This defense is good enough to just play their normal style without having to pay extra focus to the run.  As Gunner mentioned earlier, if the opposing team just wants to nickel and dime their way down the field and have some moderate to decent success with the ground game, then so be it.  This offense and defense is too good to be able to consistently beat them doing it that way.   It's when they get out of their game plan and start getting sucked in to the play action and open up the pass game when they begin to play on their heels.   That's when the defense gets completely out of whack.  

 

They just have to trust their defense and not allow that to happen.  When they are playing that way without having their LB's get sucked in to believing they need to stop the run game, then yes, the defense is a top 3 elite level defense.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Magox

[SinceThe70s]

 

Deep down I wish we had a top end pass rusher. 

[Thurman#1]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:29 AM, FilthyBeast said:

 

It's because we've played mostly poor teams and QB's thus far. When we have played remotely competent QB's we've lost against those teams.

 

I'm not saying this defense is trash because they aren't but I think fans are in a for a rude awakening again come playoff time when you see similar performances like what happened against the Titans where we can't get stops or any pressure without blitzing.

 

 

It's not "because of" that.

 

It's partially because of that. It's certainly a factor. But DVOA controls for that and they still have the Bills at #1 in Adjusted DVOA. So another reason for the fact that they're considered very very good, is that they're very very good.

 

Will they probably have games where they have problems? Yeah, absolutely. Every defense does.

 

Look at the '85 Bears. That was an insanely good defense and people forget it, but that year the Dolphins put up 38 points against them and the 2-14 Bucs put up 28. Look at the 2000 Ravens, also in the conversation for best of all time. The 7-9 Jags put up 36 on them.

 

Before the nonsense starts, I'm not comparing this Bills defense to those two, but I am saying that every D has a bad game or two or three, even the really good ones.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Rockinon]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:26 PM, Shaw66 said:

I keep saying it, because every week that goes by makes me think the same thing:   We're watching a young Bill Belichick.  

 

Belichick didn't have a star-based defense.   His defenses don't make lights out plays, and they also don't make mistakes.   

 

Belichick wants a shut-down corner, if he can get one.  Other than that, he'll assemble good players at every position, teach them a complicated defense, and then they'll do what they need to do to win.   When has Belichick based his defense on true All-Pro pass rusher?   So far as I can recall, never.   His guys are always around the ball, they're always good at taking the ball away, they're always well ranked, but they aren't the 85 Bears.  (Frankly, it's been so long that I don't think the 85 Bears are relevant.   And I'm not sure that even the 85 Bears were as good as we think we remember.)   I'm not sure that even the Ray Lewis Ravens are relevant any more.  I mean, what team has had a truly lights out defense in the last 10 years?   

 

Yes, the Bills give up some easy yards, or at least it looks that way.  After all, how much easy yardage can you give up and still lead the league in yards per game defense?   The offense isn't dominating time of possession (fourth at 32:23) that much to keep the defensive stats down.  Every team gives up some easy throws every game - it's just gotten a lot easier to pass.   And Tennessee kills you with play action because they threaten on every play to send Henry rumbling through the middle.  

 

I think McDermott knows what Belichick knows, which is that JJ Watt doesn't win championships, Von Miller doesn't, Kahlil Mack doesn't, name whatever flashy defensive player you want, they don't win championships.   Really solid team defense wins championships.  

 

On one play, are the Bills at a disadvantage because they don't have Aaron Donald or a JJ Watt clone?  Sure.   Over the course of 60 minutes, I'm just not so sure those guys matter.  

 

I'll take first in yards defense and first in points defense, however impressive or unimpressive it may look. 

 

 

Some good points here. I'm pretty sure if McDermot could get a Kahlil Mack or Von Miller, he wouldn't complain. And Star is having a very positive effect on the overall defense. Others are benefiting from the dirty work he is doing up front. I believe though that the pass rush is much better than they are getting credit for. These QBs are getting the ball out fast. You can see that they are game planning it that way because you do not want to hold the ball long against this team. Just watching their defensive front, you can see the disruption from play to play. They get after it in the trenches and it's not just the DEs either. What is really impressive, is that the run defense is good enough to make opposing offenses prefer the short passing game. It seems to me that this defense and the coach who leads it is intentionally trying to force the pass. Specifically the short passing game. Teams are not getting away with deep passes, because they don't have time and the coverage is so good. That short pass game increases the percentage of throws and by sheer numbers also the number of mistakes. Look at the number of interceptions. And like you said, it's a team effort. No one guy is getting all of those picks. And it is often a pick because the guys up front are putting pressure on the passer. I believe, this team is embracing the fact that is a passing league. Heck, they are even forcing teams to pass more.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Rockinon said:

Some good points here. I'm pretty sure if McDermot could get a Kahlil Mack or Von Miller, he wouldn't complain. And Star is having a very positive effect on the overall defense. Others are benefiting from the dirty work he is doing up front. I believe though that the pass rush is much better than they are getting credit for. These QBs are getting the ball out fast. You can see that they are game planning it that way because you do not want to hold the ball long against this team. Just watching their defensive front, you can see the disruption from play to play. They get after it in the trenches and it's not just the DEs either. What is really impressive, is that the run defense is good enough to make opposing offenses prefer the short passing game. It seems to me that this defense and the coach who leads it is intentionally trying to force the pass. Specifically the short passing game. Teams are not getting away with deep passes, because they don't have time and the coverage is so good. That short pass game increases the percentage of throws and by sheer numbers also the number of mistakes. Look at the number of interceptions. And like you said, it's a team effort. No one guy is getting all of those picks. And it is often a pick because the guys up front are putting pressure on the passer. I believe, this team is embracing the fact that is a passing league. Heck, they are even forcing teams to pass more.

That's great.  I think you describe it exactly.  

 

Taking a step back, what's in credible about this defense is that it really is a team defense.  Everyone succeeds because his teammates are succeeding.  Tre gets beat.  Levi does.  Taron does.  But they make a high percentage of their plays.  That means that the dline knows that if they just work hard at their jobs, they'll be able to create pressure.   Everyone's success in this defense depends on the others.  

 

Gotta give a lot of credit to McDermott for that.   He and Beane have seen that a certain kind of player who truly buys into a team concept is more valuable than a star, because the power of team can overcome individual talent.  So, yes, when a Mack or a Watt becomes available, they'll look at the guy, but only if the guy is that kind of team player.   

 

So, as I think about it, I think this really may be an elite defense.   Part of the problem with calling it "elite" is that we tend to compare what we're seeing to what we think we know about the historic great defenses, or even about whoever was the best defense in the league even a couple years ago.   What we really know about those defenses is mostly our memories of their highlight reels.  Almost all of them have times struggled at times.  We tend to think that if no player LOOKS as good as a Bruce Smith, then the pass rush can't be as effective as a pass rush with a stud.  McDermott essentially is teaching his players that they can win more by committing completely to a team scheme.  

 

Take Tre White as an example.   He's 100% into the team concept.   He does what he's supposed to do every play.   He doesn't always make the play, be he does everything the way the team defense wants him to.  In another defense, he might have more freedom, and he might be known around the league as a shut-down corner.  It might be worth more money to him to have that reputation.  But White understands that the best defense is a team defense, and he's willing to pass up the personal accolades for the wins.  

 

Part of the genius of this type of team defense is can be great WITHOUT the elite players at any positions.  None of the Bills defensive backs plays the game like the very best players at their position, but every one of them plays maybe only a notch below.  Very solid, rarely out of position, every guy trusting the other guy to do his job, and all of them recognizing that playing that way will result in more wins, even if they struggle at times.   And then, every once in a while an elite guy comes along who's willing to play that team style, and then it can be REALLY special.   Not to start a new debate here, but I think we've seen a different Edmunds this year.   We're seeing a guy who is attacking more, who actually may be growing into the kind of force we hoped he'd be.  

 

It's all very Belichickian.  That's how the Pats defense has played, and every once in a while they'd have a stud somewhere, a Gilmore or that other shut-down artist they had, or a Wilfork.  When Belichick has a real stud at an impact position, he can rely on that guy taking on a bigger role in the scheme, and the responsibilities of all the other positions shrink a little bit, allowing all of those players to be a little more effective.  But Belichick doesn't NEED a stud.  Look at Devin McCourty.  He's never struck me as a true stud, but more of a really good football player at his position who's been taught to play a complicated scheme.   A lot, in fact, like White, or Hyde, or Poyer, or Taron Johnson.  And Levi really is only a small notch below that.   Think about it.  Nobody's calling any of those guys studs.   What they're saying is these guys are just **** good football player playing a great team scheme.  

[Rockinon]

14 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's great.  I think you describe it exactly.  

 

Taking a step back, what's in credible about this defense is that it really is a team defense.  Everyone succeeds because his teammates are succeeding.  Tre gets beat.  Levi does.  Taron does.  But they make a high percentage of their plays.  That means that the dline knows that if they just work hard at their jobs, they'll be able to create pressure.   Everyone's success in this defense depends on the others.  

 

Gotta give a lot of credit to McDermott for that.   He and Beane have seen that a certain kind of player who truly buys into a team concept is more valuable than a star, because the power of team can overcome individual talent.  So, yes, when a Mack or a Watt becomes available, they'll look at the guy, but only if the guy is that kind of team player.   

 

So, as I think about it, I think this really may be an elite defense.   Part of the problem with calling it "elite" is that we tend to compare what we're seeing to what we think we know about the historic great defenses, or even about whoever was the best defense in the league even a couple years ago.   What we really know about those defenses is mostly our memories of their highlight reels.  Almost all of them have times struggled at times.  We tend to think that if no player LOOKS as good as a Bruce Smith, then the pass rush can't be as effective as a pass rush with a stud.  McDermott essentially is teaching his players that they can win more by committing completely to a team scheme.  

 

Take Tre White as an example.   He's 100% into the team concept.   He does what he's supposed to do every play.   He doesn't always make the play, be he does everything the way the team defense wants him to.  In another defense, he might have more freedom, and he might be known around the league as a shut-down corner.  It might be worth more money to him to have that reputation.  But White understands that the best defense is a team defense, and he's willing to pass up the personal accolades for the wins.  

 

Part of the genius of this type of team defense is can be great WITHOUT the elite players at any positions.  None of the Bills defensive backs plays the game like the very best players at their position, but every one of them plays maybe only a notch below.  Very solid, rarely out of position, every guy trusting the other guy to do his job, and all of them recognizing that playing that way will result in more wins, even if they struggle at times.   And then, every once in a while an elite guy comes along who's willing to play that team style, and then it can be REALLY special.   Not to start a new debate here, but I think we've seen a different Edmunds this year.   We're seeing a guy who is attacking more, who actually may be growing into the kind of force we hoped he'd be.  

 

It's all very Belichickian.  That's how the Pats defense has played, and every once in a while they'd have a stud somewhere, a Gilmore or that other shut-down artist they had, or a Wilfork.  When Belichick has a real stud at an impact position, he can rely on that guy taking on a bigger role in the scheme, and the responsibilities of all the other positions shrink a little bit, allowing all of those players to be a little more effective.  But Belichick doesn't NEED a stud.  Look at Devin McCourty.  He's never struck me as a true stud, but more of a really good football player at his position who's been taught to play a complicated scheme.   A lot, in fact, like White, or Hyde, or Poyer, or Taron Johnson.  And Levi really is only a small notch below that.   Think about it.  Nobody's calling any of those guys studs.   What they're saying is these guys are just **** good football player playing a great team scheme.  

Hyde and Poyer are getting recognized as the best safety tandem in the NFL. Ed Oliver is becoming the force that we hoped he would. Edmunds is looking great this year. Even Greg Rousseau is being recognized as a possible DROY candidate.  I keep thinking that having Star Lotulelei back has had a ripple effect over the whole D, but it's more than that. The front office made a real effort to resign their own. The communication on the field between players is elite. Everyone knows what the man next to him is doing and it is showing up in the games. The interesting thing, in my mind, is that the team concepts in place are allowing multiple players to make plays at every level of the D. In turn that is increasing recognition. There are multiple players considered to be elite on this D. 

 

It should also be pointed out that the success this year can be attributed to great coaching. The way this team works together is the best I have seen in recent memory. It's very clear that this entire team was built on a solid foundation.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Rockinon said:

Hyde and Poyer are getting recognized as the best safety tandem in the NFL. Ed Oliver is becoming the force that we hoped he would. Edmunds is looking great this year. Even Greg Rousseau is being recognized as a possible DROY candidate.  I keep thinking that having Star Lotulelei back has had a ripple effect over the whole D, but it's more than that. The front office made a real effort to resign their own. The communication on the field between players is elite. Everyone knows what the man next to him is doing and it is showing up in the games. The interesting thing, in my mind, is that the team concepts in place are allowing multiple players to make plays at every level of the D. In turn that is increasing recognition. There are multiple players considered to be elite on this D. 

 

It should also be pointed out that the success this year can be attributed to great coaching. The way this team works together is the best I have seen in recent memory. It's very clear that this entire team was built on a solid foundation.

I agree with all of us and I appreciate that people are talking about it.  I didn't see it until this conversation.  

 

The interdependency of the players is key - they know each other and they are committed to this - well, uh - this process.   You can see how they've gotten better, building on year after year, getting more sophisticated, nuanced.   Part of the process is going to be working younger people in, because there has to be a continuous rotation.  Someone has to be behind, a new corner has to come in to replace Wallace and be the successor to Tre.   It's a constant building process, with young talent coming in and learning the process, raising their game to the level of the veterans.  They have to be in line waiting.  We won't realize they are there and that good until the vets start getting let go, to our dismay. 

 

Remember how amazing it was when the Pats caught Lawyer Milloy, and then the Bills signed him?   He was part of their powerhouse (or so we thought) safety combination.  The Pats, we were told, had mismanaged their cap and didn't have room to sign Milloy.   He wouldn't do a team-friendly deal.   The Pats said, well, then, good-bye.  Turned out Milloy was a very good but not great player who succeeded because of the great team defense he played in.  He was the first of many Patriot "stars"  Belichick let go.  Little by little, we're going to see that happening with this team.  Guys we really like are going to move on, and the Bills always will have someone behind him.  

 

  It's quite impressive how this team is built.  

[Governor]

2003 Bucs were the last truly elite defense. They shut everyone down.

[Rockinon]

43 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with all of us and I appreciate that people are talking about it.  I didn't see it until this conversation.  

 

The interdependency of the players is key - they know each other and they are committed to this - well, uh - this process.   You can see how they've gotten better, building on year after year, getting more sophisticated, nuanced.   Part of the process is going to be working younger people in, because there has to be a continuous rotation.  Someone has to be behind, a new corner has to come in to replace Wallace and be the successor to Tre.   It's a constant building process, with young talent coming in and learning the process, raising their game to the level of the veterans.  They have to be in line waiting.  We won't realize they are there and that good until the vets start getting let go, to our dismay. 

 

Remember how amazing it was when the Pats caught Lawyer Milloy, and then the Bills signed him?   He was part of their powerhouse (or so we thought) safety combination.  The Pats, we were told, had mismanaged their cap and didn't have room to sign Milloy.   He wouldn't do a team-friendly deal.   The Pats said, well, then, good-bye.  Turned out Milloy was a very good but not great player who succeeded because of the great team defense he played in.  He was the first of many Patriot "stars"  Belichick let go.  Little by little, we're going to see that happening with this team.  Guys we really like are going to move on, and the Bills always will have someone behind him.  

 

  It's quite impressive how this team is built.  

Even Meyer has respect for the way this team was built. Says they have studied the Bills and they are one of the best builds in recent history.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/jacksonville-jaguars/os-sp-jacksonville-jaguars-buffalo-bills-nfl-20211105-k7mdxag7zrdmzktcc7ciu2ot5i-story.html

[GreggTX]

If the young DL become great (2 elite pass rushers) and we get a sizable upgrade at CB2 THEN they are elite. The downside is that we'd probably not be able to keep them all.

[gomper]

They get pushed around at the point of attack.  Eventually it's going to come back and bite them.

[97bills]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:14 PM, Stank_Nasty said:

Until we have a guy that you know you can count on when its 3rd and 6 late in a game to go make a play and get to the qb i dont think we have the top unit.... probably a top 5 unit though.

This is we’re I’m at, to many times in a game we need a stop on 3rd and 6 and the QB has plenty of time in the pocket. If we did make it to a super bowl a team like rams or bucs would eat our lunch if we can’t get Pressure. 

[97bills]

1 hour ago, gomper said:

They get pushed around at the point of attack.  Eventually it's going to come back and bite them.

And this happens against average line’s!! We get in playoffs and play a team with a power run game it could be a long day. There’s been plenty of times our opponents oline was injured and I thought ok we should have the advantage, and still get pushed around. I think this Dline is bad maybe the rookies come around 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

But Belichick doesn't NEED a stud.  Look at Devin McCourty.  He's never struck me as a true stud, but more of a really good football player at his position who's been taught to play a complicated scheme.  

 

I disagree with you there. McCourty isn't a stud now, he is 30 freaking 4, but there was a period in the middle of the last decade - essentially the years New England kept making Superbowls - where McCourty was absolutely a stud. He was an elite safety. A second team all pro on 3 occasions in that run and that is no mistake. He was outstanding. Bill deserves some credit for it because he was a converted corner but McCourty was an extremely talented player. 

 

Edit: and I am calling Tre White a stud as well by the way, maybe I am reading your post wrong but it sounded like you were saying people weren't? White is absolutely an elite player. He is the only elite player the Bills have on defense.

Edited November 7, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

6 hours ago, Governor said:

2003 Bucs were the last truly elite defense. They shut everyone down.

I would say both the 2014 Seahawks and 2015 Broncos are up there.

[ganesh]

On 11/3/2021 at 2:38 AM, Jauronimo said:

Defense is excellent but is susceptible to getting pushed around in the run game against physical OLs and struggles to get consistent pressure on QBs when facing premier OLs.  Like most modern NFL defenses, they will give up points  yards to the elite offenses.

 

The Colts and Tampa games will be big tests.

Not points but Yards

[Stank_Nasty]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with you there. McCourty isn't a stud now, he is 30 freaking 4, but there was a period in the middle of the last decade - essentially the years New England kept making Superbowls - where McCourty was absolutely a stud. He was an elite safety. A second team all pro on 3 occasions in that run and that is no mistake. He was outstanding. Bill deserves some credit for it because he was a converted corner but McCourty was an extremely talented player. 

 

Edit: and I am calling Tre White a stud as well by the way, maybe I am reading your post wrong but it sounded like you were saying people weren't? White is absolutely an elite player. He is the only elite player the Bills have on defense.

If Milano finishes out the season the way he’s started are we elevating him to elite at his position? 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Just now, Stank_Nasty said:

If Milano finishes out the season the way he’s started are we elevating him to elite at his position? 

😂 

 

(Im a big Milano fan)

[GymShorts84]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:07 PM, Bubba Gump said:

I don't like the zone defense. WR's are always open in the middle of the field and make uncontested catches. Brown, and Parker were running wide open the past two games. 

Zone D can be frustrating to watch as a fan but it keeps everything in front of the safeties. Most WR routes are option routes, so in man they can make a move to get open, unless they are blanketed by one of the few elite corners in the league. The Bills D is a disciplined, conservative D that forces the offense to have a long, sustained drive with multiple 3rd down conversions to score. I think they are executing Leslie Frazier’s vision to a T. We could use more sacks, that would elevate the D to the elite status. 

[Mr. WEO]