Mahomes vs Allen - The Long Term Knight

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

A gift is something that is given..........touch/timing is natural to many passers.......a gift they have..........for some that's all that gets them to the league.........it's very valuable to be gifted with it.

 

Ummmm... are you being serious? 

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

But is Allen more naturally gifted than guys like Herbert or Lawrence?

 

I think they both throw with better natural touch, timing and anticipation than Allen.   It's readily apparent.  They are both very big, very athletic and have very strong arms.   On the hoof they are very comparable and maybe even more "gifted" than Allen.

 

I said Allen is the most physically gifted QB in the NFL and possibly NFL history. Natural gifts broadens the scope too much to intangibles like mental makeup, leadership, competitiveness and instincts--though I'd say Allen is in the upper echelon of 3/4 of those... to me it's his instincts that could hold him back.

 

 

I'm going to repeat the physical traits that Allen has that really can't be taught:

 

Size... and I'm talking height and body frame combined. Herbert and Lawrence might be taller, but they don't have Allen’s thick frame. That matters for obvious reasons including injury risk and diffdifficulty to tackle.

 

Strength... Herbert and Lawrence aren't as strong as Allen. No QB in the NFL is as strong as him from toes to shoulders. Also matters for obvious reasons like shedding tacklers, which we've seen Allen do over and over.

 

Speed... Lamar and Kyler are faster, but they don't compare to Allen in other categories. It's pretty obvious to anyone watching Allen that he has unique speed especially for a man his size.

 

Athleticism... I said elusiveness before, but even that should fall under the category of athleticism. And I say that because of the hurdling of defenders we've seen from Allen. He’s also twitchy and elusive for a guy his size. 

 

Arm Strength... obviously unique to a QB so a separate category from Strength in general. The only QBs comparable in terms of arm strength to Allen would be Mahomes and Rodgers.

 

 

So yes, Allen is more physically gifted than Herbert and Lawrence.

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

What Allen doesn't get enough credit for is his mental makeup.........he's smart,  driven to win and has a ton of emotional intelligence...........which makes him a leader and that is a non-physical trait that combines with his gifts to give him a chance to be an all-time great.    

 

I agree. 

[BADOLBILZ]

42 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ummmm... are you being serious? 

 

 

I said Allen is the most physically gifted QB in the NFL and possibly NFL history. Natural gifts broadens the scope too much to intangibles like mental makeup, leadership, competitiveness and instincts--though I'd say Allen is in the upper echelon of 3/4 of those... to me it's his instincts that could hold him back.

. 

 

 

Of course,  

 

 

if you are a 4th year NFL starting QB and can't easily throw simple passes with touch........you have a persistent lack of coordination between your brain and your arm.

 

 That's a physical deficiency.

 

 If you've ever played sports or coached youth sports or can even remember when you played them,   there are always kids with better natural hand eye coordination and spatial awareness.   They are things that can be improved........but so can ALL of the other things on your list,  with the exception of skeletal frame.

 

Allen still struggles to throw passes that require "touch".   Not just screens.  If he has to put air under a deep ball it could easily end up overthrown by 30 feet whether he has any pressure on him or not.   His arm strength is amazing so he can circumvent some of that by throwing fastballs a great distance..........but he certainly doesn't have the assortment of speeds and trajectories at his disposal that guys like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson and Herbert do.   Watch the games.   It's gotten to the point with Allen where they just don't attempt a number of fairly common throws.  And, IMO,  if you can't make all of the common throws you probably aren't the most physically gifted QB of all time.

 

But he is definitely on the list of most blessed/gifted and the assortment of natural "gifts" that he does have promises to buy him time to improve as much as possible in the areas where he isn't as "gifted". 

   

[Dopey]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:59 PM, NewEra said:

I got my money on 17 + McBeane to get us a Lombardi before they leave.  Do you?

I'm betting the field every time. Hope we do it, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

A gift is something that is given..........touch/timing is natural to many passers.......a gift they have..........for some that's all that gets them to the league.........it's very valuable to be gifted with it.

 

Allen is going to have to work for that........it's most definitely not been gifted to him.   He will throw seemingly simple touch passes that look like a HS JV QB at times(like the screens to RB's in the KC game).

 

Most natural gifts can be improved upon........Allen is proof of that........he has improved his accuracy, running speed.......a number of things.   Brady is obviously the standard,  he is more physically talented at 44 than he was early in his career.

 

But is Allen more naturally gifted than guys like Herbert or Lawrence?

 

I think they both throw with better natural touch, timing and anticipation than Allen.   It's readily apparent.  They are both very big, very athletic and have very strong arms.   On the hoof they are very comparable and maybe even more "gifted" than Allen.

 

What Allen doesn't get enough credit for is his mental makeup.........he's smart,  driven to win and has a ton of emotional intelligence...........which makes him a leader and that is a non-physical trait that combines with his gifts to give him a chance to be an all-time great.    

The one thing I'll say about Allen regarding "physically gifted" is that he appears to have the strongest arm in NFL history and it ain't even close. He has the combine record for velocity (62 mph) and was clocked at an unheard-of 66.14 mph at the senior bowl (60 is extremely high). There is even a story out there of him hitting 74 mph in a game. He was throwing 91 as a HS pitcher and grew 3+ inches and put on 50 pounds (a lot of muscle) AFTER his senior year in HS. We're talking Chapman-level with regard to arm strength. But he's also an elite athlete for a QB. He's not Lamar Jackson, but he's probably the best combo of mobile and strong in the league irrespective of the ridiculous arm talent. That's why folks say he's the most physically gifted QB ever. As for touch, yeah, there's a physical element to it, but it's also mental. We're not talking about mental here. Rather, we're talking stark, raw animal power. I've never seen anyone like him in that respect.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by dave mcbride

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I'm betting the field every time. Hope we do it, but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

Good.  I wouldn’t bet my house on it either.    Betting houses on sporting events is a bad idea.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Of course,  

 

 

if you are a 4th year NFL starting QB and can't easily throw simple passes with touch........you have a persistent lack of coordination between your brain and your arm.

 

 That's a physical deficiency.

 

 If you've ever played sports or coached youth sports or can even remember when you played them,   there are always kids with better natural hand eye coordination and spatial awareness.   They are things that can be improved........but so can ALL of the other things on your list,  with the exception of skeletal frame.

 

Allen still struggles to throw passes that require "touch".   Not just screens.  If he has to put air under a deep ball it could easily end up overthrown by 30 feet whether he has any pressure on him or not.   His arm strength is amazing so he can circumvent some of that by throwing fastballs a great distance..........but he certainly doesn't have the assortment of speeds and trajectories at his disposal that guys like Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson and Herbert do.   Watch the games.   It's gotten to the point with Allen where they just don't attempt a number of fairly common throws.  And, IMO,  if you can't make all of the common throws you probably aren't the most physically gifted QB of all time.

 

But he is definitely on the list of most blessed/gifted and the assortment of natural "gifts" that he does have promises to buy him time to improve as much as possible in the areas where he isn't as "gifted". 

   

 

I've made my case. Argue with people in the NFL or who make their living working with them and studying them:

 

[BADOLBILZ]

50 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The one thing I'll say about Allen regarding "physically gifted" is that he appears to have the strongest arm in NFL history and it ain't even close. He has the combine record for velocity (62 mph) and was clocked at an unheard-of 66.14 mph at the senior bowl (60 is extremely high). There is even a story out there of him hitting 74 mph in a game. He was throwing 91 as a HS pitcher and grew 3+ inches and put on 50 pounds (a lot of muscle) AFTER his senior year in HS. We're talking Chapman-level with regard to arm strength. But he's also an elite athlete for a QB. He's not Lamar Jackson, but he's probably the best combo of mobile and strong in the league irrespective of the ridiculous arm talent. That's why folks say he's the most physically gifted QB ever. As for touch, yeah, there's a physical element to it, but it's also mental. We're not talking about mental here. Rather, we're talking stark, raw animal power. I've never seen anyone like him in that respect.  

 

1) I wouldn't say "it ain't even close".    The longest pass "ever" measured in a game was Patrick Mahomes 68 yards in the air.  Mahomes also threw 60 mph at the combine so they were "close".   I have always thought Allen had the stronger arm but it's contest worthy.     Justin Herbert also threw 60 mph and Jacob Eason tied Allen's record at 62 mph.   There are some strong arms in the NFL today.

 

2) As for stories,  Denver used to set their jugs machines at 80mph to simulate Elway's throws.   Stories be stories.  

 

3) JA's baseball 91 mph never impressed me.   All that told me is that baseball wasn't his sport.   The Yankees wouldn't draft him as a catcher with that mph.   He's not a real loose athlete so not sure his kind of power translates well to baseball.   His first pitch at the Jays game this year was a sad disappointment.......despite reportedly putting in quite a bit of practice.   And as hard as Chappy once threw.......Nolan Ryan is the standard.   I tend to believe he'd hit that reported 108 mph on a modern gun.    The bigger baseball issue with Josh is that he lacks that "shortstop type" of arm talent/athleticism that Russ Wilson and Patrick Mahomes and Kyler Murray display.

 

4) I don't disagree about him being a unique beast of a QB.   Bad things can happen.......but he's built to last.......much like John Elway and that allowed Elway to be winning SB's when his class of 83' cohorts were busted up and retired.  

 

I strongly disagree that the ability to alter how you throw the ball isn't part of the "arm talent" equation.   It most definitely is.  

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I've made my case. Argue with people in the NFL or who make their living working with them and studying them:

 

 

 

Trust me,  I want to believe it.   But it's year 4 and his inability to throw accurate/timely passes with air under them still remains.   They win the Steelers game if he could.   They are adapting to the weakness by asking him to just under throw those passes........but that's working around a weakness, not fixing it.     What I see is a great QB with a glaring, but probably/eventually correctable, weakness.    He's definitely in the conversation with the greatest physical talents ever, IMO.   But it's not cut and dried.  I've said it before.......the hope is that he fixes that problem while he still has all of the other capabilities.   THAT will be peak Josh Allen and I can't wait to see it.

[FireChans]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) I wouldn't say "it ain't even close".    The longest pass "ever" measured in a game was Patrick Mahomes 68 yards in the air.  Mahomes also threw 60 mph at the combine so they were "close".   I have always thought Allen had the stronger arm but it's contest worthy.     Justin Herbert also threw 60 mph and Jacob Eason tied Allen's record at 62 mph.   There are some strong arms in the NFL today.

 

2) As for stories,  Denver used to set their jugs machines at 80mph to simulate Elway's throws.   Stories be stories.  

 

3) JA's baseball 91 mph never impressed me.   All that told me is that baseball wasn't his sport.   The Yankees wouldn't draft him as a catcher with that mph.   He's not a real loose athlete so not sure his kind of power translates well to baseball.   His first pitch at the Jays game this year was a sad disappointment.......despite reportedly putting in quite a bit of practice.   And as hard as Chappy once threw.......Nolan Ryan is the standard.   I tend to believe he'd hit that reported 108 mph on a modern gun.    The bigger baseball issue with Josh is that he lacks that "shortstop type" of arm talent/athleticism that Russ Wilson and Patrick Mahomes and Kyler Murray display.

 

4) I don't disagree about him being a unique beast of a QB.   Bad things can happen.......but he's built to last.......much like John Elway and that allowed Elway to be winning SB's when his class of 83' cohorts were busted up and retired.  

 

I strongly disagree that the ability to alter how you throw the ball isn't part of the "arm talent" equation.   It most definitely is.  

Deshaun Watson is a good example of a great QB who doesn’t have nearly the same amount of strength as Allen but has way more touch.

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) I wouldn't say "it ain't even close".    The longest pass "ever" measured in a game was Patrick Mahomes 68 yards in the air.  Mahomes also threw 60 mph at the combine so they were "close".   I have always thought Allen had the stronger arm but it's contest worthy.     Justin Herbert also threw 60 mph and Jacob Eason tied Allen's record at 62 mph.   There are some strong arms in the NFL today.

 

2) As for stories,  Denver used to set their jugs machines at 80mph to simulate Elway's throws.   Stories be stories.  

 

3) JA's baseball 91 mph never impressed me.   All that told me is that baseball wasn't his sport.   The Yankees wouldn't draft him as a catcher with that mph.   He's not a real loose athlete so not sure his kind of power translates well to baseball.   His first pitch at the Jays game this year was a sad disappointment.......despite reportedly putting in quite a bit of practice.   And as hard as Chappy once threw.......Nolan Ryan is the standard.   I tend to believe he'd hit that reported 108 mph on a modern gun.    The bigger baseball issue with Josh is that he lacks that "shortstop type" of arm talent/athleticism that Russ Wilson and Patrick Mahomes and Kyler Murray display.

 

4) I don't disagree about him being a unique beast of a QB.   Bad things can happen.......but he's built to last.......much like John Elway and that allowed Elway to be winning SB's when his class of 83' cohorts were busted up and retired.  

 

I strongly disagree that the ability to alter how you throw the ball isn't part of the "arm talent" equation.   It most definitely is.  

Badol, he literally threw 66.14 at the senior bowl. Do your research. The difference between 60 and 66 is the difference between 100 and 92 in baseball — i.e., massive. Also, actually read what i wrote about his baseball velocity. He grew a ton after that measurement. C’mon! Be a better reader. Your baseball comment given the context is beneath you.

Edited October 28, 2021 by dave mcbride

[JerseyBills]

These are adults doing this.

Not sure about Brittany but you can tell Jackson has never overcame adversity and I'd bet the real world would swallow him up if Pat ever cut him off from riding his cotails. 

 

I almost feel sorry for Patty but again, he's allowing his adult of a brother to basically mooch of him and his name and that'd be fine if it was a skill or talent. But he's literally moving (i don't consider that dancing) like any elderly person can move. 

 

Plus the wife showing the goods in front of the camera. If a picture or video in this case is worth a thousand words, Pats body language sure suggests he can't stand whatever this is ( I know it's for TikTok).

 

Josh would never. He'd pull them aside and tell em that's unacceptable, especially during the season and to act like an adult. But that's the difference between a kid who got handed everything in Mahomes n a guy that fought through tremendous adversity n odds to get to this point 

 

 

[Patience]

Nice to see two girlfriends dancing and having a good time.  

[Sugar High JA17]

Yeast Mode !

[Warcodered]

21 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

These are adults doing this.

Not sure about Brittany but you can tell Jackson has never overcame adversity and I'd bet the real world would swallow him up if Pat ever cut him off from riding his cotails. 

 

I almost feel sorry for Patty but again, he's allowing his adult of a brother to basically mooch of him and his name and that'd be fine if it was a skill or talent. But he's literally moving (i don't consider that dancing) like any elderly person can move. 

 

Plus the wife showing the goods in front of the camera. If a picture or video in this case is worth a thousand words, Pats body language sure suggests he can't stand whatever this is ( I know it's for TikTok).

 

Josh would never. He'd pull them aside and tell em that's unacceptable, especially during the season and to act like an adult. But that's the difference between a kid who got handed everything in Mahomes n a guy that fought through tremendous adversity n odds to get to this point 

 

 

 

I mean I think it's a bit much to assume all this.

 

At the same time I continue to be confused as to the purpose of these TikToks. Like every one I've seen him do seems specifically designed to make him look like an entitled douchebag. I mean is that the point, is that what he's going for?

Edited October 28, 2021 by Warcodered

[BassToMouth]

I am just so glad the Allens are in Buffalo and not the Mahomes 

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

I mean I think it's a bit much to assume all this.

 

At the same time I continue to be confused as to the purpose of these TikToks. Like every one I've seen him do seems specifically designed to make him look like an entitled douchebag. I mean is that the point, is that what he's going for?

Honestly that is what it is, but they consider it a good thing now apparently. So it is pretty confusing for people like me and I assume you who aren’t tuned into that specific little world. Just attention seeking, skill or talent or being interesting isn’t required at all anymore. Very bizarre. I have no social media despite being in a similar age group. To me it promotes narcissism and is a total distraction. 

[Just Jack]

I am so glad that TikToks algorithm is so good, that he never shows up on my FYP. 

[Beerball]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Why is this a thread?

Because Josh isn't a slut, apparently.

[Beerball]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

This was prior to the merging….

I know.

[Rico]

This thread is a fail because the title is wrong… it should be ‘Allen vs. Mahomes’, please correct OP.

[ToGoGo]

32 minutes ago, BassToMouth said:

I am just so glad the Allens are in Buffalo and not the Mahomes 

Honestly that is what it is, but they consider it a good thing now apparently. So it is pretty confusing for people like me and I assume you who aren’t tuned into that specific little world. Just attention seeking, skill or talent or being interesting isn’t required at all anymore. Very bizarre. I have no social media despite being in a similar age group. To me it promotes narcissism and is a total distraction. 

Bingo. Promotes narcissism. Approval seeking behavior. 

 

But it's almost like an excuse. "I'm not just arrogantly showing off my rear end, I'm making a dance video to show how goofy and fun-loving I am." 

 

It's very see through, but it's been promoted as the cool thing to do. To me it exposes neediness.