Mahomes vs Allen - The Long Term Knight

[CincyBillsFan]

35 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

 

Flip to Allen, honestly, the league has him figured out too and he’s not playing well either.  The difference is, the Bills have played a bunch of garbage teams and the Chiefs are struggling more.   Allen is still playing good football in relative terms, but he’s not clicking, Ds are forcing him to make more reads and he’s missing A LOT of open guys.  He both single handedly kept us in the Tenn game in the 2nd half and proceeded to lose it too.  I think Allen is capable of doing more himself than virtually any QB in the league, the problem is when he tries to. 

 

I don't agree with this at all.  Allen isn't playing well? Really? 

 

Some folks watch Allen through a magnifying glass noting every little thing he does wrong.  Then they apparently watch the rest of the NFL through a curtain not seeing that EVERY QB misses open throws; that EVERY QB doesn't see open receivers and that over the course of a game EVERY QB makes plays that contribute to both winning & losing a game.

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Mahomes has earned the right to be the best and has to be rated ahead of Allen.  MVP + Super bowl MVP + Lombardi in his first 2 years as a starter. Unreal.  
 

That said, Josh is coming and Pat is dealing with his first string of failures.  Let’s see how copes with and bounces back from these failures. 

Most folks would agree with this.  What this thread starter has thrown out there is an interesting observation.  This is the first time Mahomes has faced real adversity as the QB of the Chiefs.  I think he'll respond just fine and by the end of the season he'll be back among the top 5 QB's in the NFL.  But it is a fair observation especially considering that some Bills fans over the last 6 weeks on 2BD have speculated that Allen:

 

* has regressed and last year was just a mirrage

* can't play in "big" games

* can't play in front of big crowds.

 

So if we have to listen to that sort of dribble speculating on what the future holds for Mahomes is certainly warranted.

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

47 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Maholmes has accomplished more than most guys will in a career in his first 3 years playing, he’s not playing well at the moment, period.   I think a big part of this is simple, when you have a QB on a rookie deal, you have money to put other pieces around them and have a way better team.  Now that he’s THE highest paid guy anywhere, the cuts had to come.  Guys like Watkins might not be true, elite #1 guys, but you have to defend a guy with elite traits all game, that’s a safety that can’t cheat and you #2 CB working hard all day.  Now you throw Hardman to that spot, you just have to keep him in front of you, big difference.  That’s ONE example of what happens when you tie up an extra 20M a year in one player.   Then they used a 1st round pick on a RB that doesn’t get enough action to justify it (paying attention RB guys?).  Another wasted opportunity.

 

Flip to Allen, honestly, the league has him figured out too and he’s not playing well either.  The difference is, the Bills have played a bunch of garbage teams and the Chiefs are struggling more.   Allen is still playing good football in relative terms, but he’s not clicking, Ds are forcing him to make more reads and he’s missing A LOT of open guys.  He both single handedly kept us in the Tenn game in the 2nd half and proceeded to lose it too.  I think Allen is capable of doing more himself than virtually any QB in the league, the problem is when he tries to.  
 

Looking at the long term, both teams have to be thrilled to have these guys.  It will only ever be a debate in Buffalo if Allen is better, until he wins.  You can see it in the media already, Herbert was the crowned one.  Now, you are seeing Burrow get the attention he deserves.  That dude is great.  They are starting to turn on Maholmes, but if the Bills get to 10-3 or so and Allen is clicking, he’s gonna need non-slip shoes from all the slobbering the media will be doing.

Allen is missing less throws than ever imo…seems like a lot of people on this board haven’t watched other great qbs and they compare josh to some mythical perfect qb that never misses a throw and always finds the open guy. Everyone’s a critic when a play doesn’t work but josh is making tons of plays every week with this so called ‘hero ball’ that you are claiming lost us a game in which our defense surrendered 6 straight scores…what a joke 

[DCofNC]

5 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Allen is missing less throws than ever imo…seems like a lot of people on this board haven’t watched other great qbs and they compare josh to some mythical perfect qb that never misses a throw and always finds the open guy. Everyone’s a critic when a play doesn’t work but josh is making tons of plays every week with this so called ‘hero ball’ that you are claiming lost us a game in which our defense surrendered 6 straight scores…what a joke 

Did ya read what was right in front of you?

19 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I don't agree with this at all.  Allen isn't playing well? Really? 

 

Some folks watch Allen through a magnifying glass noting every little thing he does wrong.  Then they apparently watch the rest of the NFL through a curtain not seeing that EVERY QB misses open throws; that EVERY QB doesn't see open receivers and that over the course of a game EVERY QB makes plays that contribute to both winning & losing a game.

 

 

 

He is not playing his best, as I said, still good relatively speaking.  His only big games have been against trash D’s, so as much as I love the kid, you also have to be objective with it.

[SCBills]

If you want to live in the past, sure, Mahomes is the best of the young QB's.

 

However, if you asked GM's around the league if they could take their pick of young QB's to build their franchise around, I'd imagine Mahomes would not be the leading vote-getter.... and I'd also imagine that Allen would be.  

 

I'm not even sure if Mahomes comes in second.  Much of his magic was 2-3 deep balls per game to Hill, which then opened up 20-30 yard rumbles from Kelce.  Teams have figured that out.... and there's a decently large sample size now of Mahomes not figuring out how to combat that.  

[Rico]

Rat and the Chiefs were exposed in the SB, this year should come as no surprise. 

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Most folks would agree with this.  What this thread starter has thrown out there is an interesting observation.  This is the first time Mahomes has faced real adversity as the QB of the Chiefs.  I think he'll respond just fine and by the end of the season he'll be back among the top 5 QB's in the NFL.  But it is a fair observation especially considering that some Bills fans over the last 6 weeks on 2BD have speculated that Allen:

 

* has regressed and last year was just a mirrage

* can't play in "big" games

* can't play in front of big crowds.

 

So if we have to listen to that sort of dribble speculating on what the future holds for Mahomes is certainly warranted.

 

 

 

I think the answer is don't listen to that sort of drivel. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Beast]

I'm not about to put Mahomes down in any way. The man is way too good.

 

With saying that, I'll take Allen and White over Mahomes without thinking twice.

[Mango]

This is weird...

...people are weird....

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree Reid needs to help him out. It is the underrated part of this. Teams have caught up to Reid's design as much (in my view more) than they have caught up to Mahomes's tendencies IMO. 

 

KC's offense looks less creative this year. There is really no excuse for a team with Hill and Kelce to have trouble getting open. I can't help but wonder if Reid's personal life is distracting him, and I wouldn't blame him if it is. He already lost one son to a drug overdose, now his other son is facing jail time for seriously injuring a child while drunk driving. I don't care what job you have, it can't be easy to focus with all of that going on in your family.

[Jay_Fixit]

9 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

It's no coincidence that Josh's mom's name is Martha.

You see this is good right here.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I don't agree with this at all.  Allen isn't playing well? Really? 

 

Some folks watch Allen through a magnifying glass noting every little thing he does wrong.  Then they apparently watch the rest of the NFL through a curtain not seeing that EVERY QB misses open throws; that EVERY QB doesn't see open receivers and that over the course of a game EVERY QB makes plays that contribute to both winning & losing a game.

 

 

 

 

The Titans game is such a perfect example of this.  

 

Josh Allen:

 

35-47, 353 Yards Passing, 3 TD, 1 INT

 

Yet we have quite a few fans that don't think he played that well.  

 

Yes, Allen has to learn to take what's there sometimes - and the second to last series of the game is a great example of that.  

 

That being said, if we won that game, Allen would be leading the MVP race.  5-1  with a game winning drive featuring an iconic moment where he attempts to hurdle multiple defenders.  Unfortunately, we botch the QB sneak and lose... and then certain fans feel justified to critique Allen missing Sanders in the end zone or missing Sweeney for a check down, when All-Time Great QB's also miss those plays, frequently.   Like Allen, they just make so many good plays that you can overlook the misses.  

 

He's a WIP, but is already one of the best QB's (arguably, the best) in the NFL and still has an incredible amount of untapped potential.  That's just downright scary.  

[Mat68]

Too early to write the eulogy of Patrick Mahomes.  He is an incredible thrower.  Is there too much going on to 100% fix it in season?  Maybe.  Chris Simms has been saying since the preseason that he isnt running or throwing the same.  He believed and later confirmed that the foot injury is still an issue. 
 

Those magical plays are a bit off and he is missing open guys.   He doesnt throw with the same technical ability as Rodger or Brady.  He hasnt had to.  Now being a little off he doesnt have his mechanics to fall back on.  
 

His style of play also needs to be examined. As does the play calling.  Seems like they are relying on a big play from outside of structure or play design every series.  Drop back, read the field, hit the guy.  When in doubt throw it up.  Teams are more expecting.  
 

Will Mahomes become more conservative overnight?  No.  Would I want him to?  Probably, not.  Run the ball way more.  Take some off Mahomes plate. I feel the the foot will be an issue and I expect him to play up and down all year.  Still a dangerous group if they find a grove.   

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

KC's offense looks less creative this year. There is really no excuse for a team with Hill and Kelce to have trouble getting open. I can't help but wonder if Reid's personal life is distracting him, and I wouldn't blame him if it is. He already lost one son to a drug overdose, now his other son is facing jail time for seriously injuring a child while drunk driving. I don't care what job you have, it can't be easy to focus with all of that going on in your family.

 

I also saw one KC fan last night argue Mahomes isn't sleeping because of his baby.... I mean personal life can play a part with human beings, obviously, but I'd be wary to put too much on those external factors. 

[Utah John]

Mahomes is as good as ever, and so are Hill and Kelce, but the rest of the team is falling apart.  

 

This is my complaint with evaluating QBs by the number of SBs they won.  Troy Aikman won two, and he was just a B+ QB.  Eli Manning won two and was a B.  Peyton Manning won one and he was a far better QB than his brother.  

 

I don't think Mahomes will ever win another SB.  He's locked into KC due to his salary and KC is locked out of restocking its roster for the same reason.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

8 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Did ya read what was right in front of you?

He is not playing his best, as I said, still good relatively speaking.  His only big games have been against trash D’s, so as much as I love the kid, you also have to be objective with it.

I’m just confused how he’s not playing his best…is this based on statistics? He had rough games against kc and ten last year and was infinitely better this year.  Pit he performed about the same and the other games we won by a million points lol I think this is the best he’s ever played but we lost a few games that fans feel like we should’ve won so he is taking the blame. You could make the point he plays better against bad teams but doesn’t everyone? Lol and that certainly extends to his play last year. Not to mention mahomes played the titans the week after us and looked bad

Edited October 25, 2021 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[ganesh]

Josh is our QB and I am very hopeful he will win multiple titles for this team and city.  However, let us not take away what Mahomes has done in his first four seasons in the NFL.   He is an astounding QB.   The Chiefs are losing not because of him.

[NewEra]

21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Meh.

 

Mahomes has been to the last two Super Bowls and won a Lombardi.   Was also the league MVP.

 

I am a huge Allen fan but until he evens the ledger.........which is no guarantee (ask Kelly and Marino about SB rings).........it's a moot point.

 

If actual accomplishments mean nothing then Jackson and Herbert and Burrow and maybe Lawrence and even DeShaun Watson(if he gets off the hook) are all in the mix as "potentially" greater longer term AFC QB's than Allen or Mahomes.    The days of there only being 3-5 consistently elite QB's in the league are probably over.

In the context of the OP….”long term” is the discussion.  Nowhere in “long term” includes the past.  It’s not a moot point.  Choosing Mahomes doesn’t give us a Lombardi.  We’re talking about the future…..not past accomplishments.  If the discussion is who’s had the best career, than your argument carries all the weight.  Mahomes all day.  There’s just not much we can debate with regards to what will happen “long term”.  
 

The only thing to discuss, imo, is who would you rather have long term.  I’ll roll with 17.  He’s more exciting.  I believe he will be more durable and play longer.  He’s a better person, leader and representative of our franchise.  He sounds better in interviews and his entourage isn’t annoying af.  He choke slams defensive lineman and has a jumpman silhouette.   Not sure why any current Bills fan would rather have Mahomes over allen long term.  Past accomplishments bring nothing to the table in the future.  

[BADOLBILZ]

22 minutes ago, NewEra said:

In the context of the OP….”long term” is the discussion.  Nowhere in “long term” includes the past.  It’s not a moot point.  Choosing Mahomes doesn’t give us a Lombardi.  We’re talking about the future…..not past accomplishments.  If the discussion is who’s had the best career, than your argument carries all the weight.  Mahomes all day.  There’s just not much we can debate with regards to what will happen “long term”.  
 

The only thing to discuss, imo, is who would you rather have long term.  I’ll roll with 17.  He’s more exciting.  I believe he will be more durable and play longer.  He’s a better person, leader and representative of our franchise.  He sounds better in interviews and his entourage isn’t annoying af.  He choke slams defensive lineman and has a jumpman silhouette.   Not sure why any current Bills fan would rather have Mahomes over allen long term.  Past accomplishments bring nothing to the table in the future.  

 

 

Long term includes the past.   The assumption is that Allen will win more SB's than Mahomes.....IF you wait it out.   And he might,  but a Lombardi in the hand is worth more than a whole bunch of imaginary future ones.   Hence, the point being moot until it aint. 

 

What you are talking about is "from now going forward" ie "just the future" Allen will be more successful than Mahomes.    If Allen plays better for the next 12 years but never wins a SB.........then give me Mahomes and the 1 SB....whether Mahomes plays another down.    

 

I already lived the Jim Kelly experience,  it was fun but I don't need a refresh.    And I'm definitely a "journey is the reward" guy........but I know the ONLY thing that will make me appreciate the journey more is at least 1 SB win.   Just getting beaten in the playoffs 10 of 12 years from 1988-1999 was ok but been there, done that.

[BruceVilanch]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

would this be one of the biggest falls in sports history?

David Duval is hard to top.