Mahomes vs Allen - The Long Term Knight

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We’re just talking about who would you rather have long term…..

 

you’d rather have Mahomes at this moment?

 

Maybe I’m “moving the goalposts” so to speak, but I just don’t see what Mahomes winning Super Bowls in the past has to do with preferring him over josh allen for the next 10-20 years.  

Is that all you got mean gene?  I got so excited when I saw you replied to my post…but the reply was disappointing to say the least.  Step your game up Gene

It doesn’t. Using Super Bowls to pick QBs going forward is like using wins to rank them. It’s a pointless exercise.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

When talking about who you would rather have long term, which is what I was doing, I don’t see how Mahomes winning a SB in KC comes into play when deciding who you’d rather have.  The Lombardi doesn’t come with him.  Would you guys rather have Nick Foles too?  He beat Tom Brady AND Belichick on the biggest stage there is.  He’s shown he can win it all bs the GOATs.  He did it all by himself too.  He carried their vaunted D in the big game

 

But that isn't a real choice is it? Measuring them career vs career at the end is the only really practical question that might ever need to be asked. If you were starting a franchise today who would you choose is just pure hypothetical. 

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But that isn't a real choice is it? Measuring them career vs career at the end is the only really practical question that might ever need to be asked. If you were starting a franchise today who would you choose is just pure hypothetical. 

I mean…..what is a “real choice?”  We are playing make believe here aren’t we?  The one thing I know, I have yet to watch my team win a super bowl.  I’ve never felt what it’s like to watch my nfl franchise win a SB.  If I chose Patrick Mahome over Allen, I wouldn’t miraculously have the memories of when he won my team a super bowl.  It just means that he’s proven that he can win one.  Just like Nick Foles did.  
 

Just to reaffirm-  I’m choosing which QB I want to QB my team for the remaining duration of their careers.  Again….I don’t see what impact Mahomes winning a super bowl in the past does to change this.  It only helps in a discussion regarding who is the better qb when their careers are over.  
If that is the only practical question to be asked, I’d probably answer Mahomes if there were a penalty to answering incorrectly.  Like you and badol said “one in the hand”.  That’s just not the question I was answering as that is not the topic at hand

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I mean…..what is a “real choice?”  We are playing make believe here aren’t we?  The one thing I know, I have yet to watch my team win a super bowl.  I’ve never felt what it’s like to watch my nfl franchise win a SB.  If I chose Patrick Mahome over Allen, I wouldn’t miraculously have the memories of when he won my team a super bowl.  It just means that he’s proven that he can win one.  Just like Nick Foles did.  
 

Just to reaffirm-  I’m choosing which QB I want to QB my team for the remaining duration of their careers.  Again….I don’t see what impact Mahomes winning a super bowl in the past does to change this.  It only helps in a discussion regarding who is the better qb when their careers are over.  
If that is the only practical question to be asked, I’d probably answer Mahomes if there were a penalty to answering incorrectly.  Like you and badol said “one in the hand”.  That’s just not the question I was answering as that is not the topic at hand

 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion on the hypotehtical..... I just don't much go for the hypotheticals. 

[MRW]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion on the hypotehtical..... I just don't much go for the hypotheticals. 

 

But what if you did?

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion on the hypotehtical..... I just don't much go for the hypotheticals. 

Aren’t you one of the big mock draft guys😂😂I mean what is that except hypotheticals piled on top of hypotheticals

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Aren’t you one of the big mock draft guys😂😂I mean what is that except hypotheticals piled on top of hypotheticals

 

Fair point. I find mock drafts fun. I get it that other folks find the "what will team A do the next 10 years vs what will team B do the next 10 years" fun to speculate on but it just isn't something that particularly interests me. I wasn't disagreeing with @NewEra. I was just saying that isn't a question I have particularly given any thought to. 

[BADOLBILZ]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I mean…..what is a “real choice?”  We are playing make believe here aren’t we?  The one thing I know, I have yet to watch my team win a super bowl.  I’ve never felt what it’s like to watch my nfl franchise win a SB.  If I chose Patrick Mahome over Allen, I wouldn’t miraculously have the memories of when he won my team a super bowl.  It just means that he’s proven that he can win one.  Just like Nick Foles did.  
 

Just to reaffirm-  I’m choosing which QB I want to QB my team for the remaining duration of their careers.  Again….I don’t see what impact Mahomes winning a super bowl in the past does to change this.  It only helps in a discussion regarding who is the better qb when their careers are over.  
If that is the only practical question to be asked, I’d probably answer Mahomes if there were a penalty to answering incorrectly.  Like you and badol said “one in the hand”.  That’s just not the question I was answering as that is not the topic at hand

 

 

Yes,  you and some people in this thread are definitely playing make believe.

 

Patrick Mahomes having won a SB is not make believe,  it's reality.

 

The damage is done already........he's won a SB and he's also directly prevented you from reaching a SB.

 

By rights, after 3 years of #1 seed status his team SHOULD be cycling out somewhat.........so being like "but yeah NOW I think Josh Allen will be better than him" just because the Bills are in a temporarily favorable roster/schedule situation is a pretty humorous way of looking at it.      

[transplantbillsfan]

Allen might be the most physically gifted QB to ever play the position. He also has a farm boy work ethic and has been overlooked as a QB most of his life.

 

Mahomes is great. I believe Allen will be greater.

 

Give me Allen.

[Greg S]

I know this is a Mahomes vs Allen thread but I think both Herbert and Burrow need to be included. I think these four are going to be the top QB's going forward in the next decade. Brady eventually will retire and Rodgers is also nearing the end. Jackson is a great athlete but as a QB I think he is a notch below the others. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is some evidence that is might be running at least a little drier.... neither this upcoming class or the 2023 class looks particularly special at this stage. But the AFC is already sufficiently stocked with Burrow, Lawrence, Herbert and possibly Jones / Wilson who are "behind" Josh on that timeline. Luckily some of them are on organisations I am yet to fully trust. The path isn't gonna get any easier from here though. 

 

 

Interestingly,  even during some stretches of drafts where the QB quality wasn't very good.........the trend of 1st contract QB teams reaching SB's has been pretty consistent.

 

Even utter imposter franchise QB's like Kaepernick and Goff and Wentz(got Eagles home field) have been good enough to ride the signficant roster advantage into team SB appearances.    Guys like Flacco and Cam have had more good seasons than those guys but they also were relative shooting stars that probably got to SB's more because of 1st contract roster timing than anything else.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[The Wiz]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:40 AM, Mango said:

This is weird...

...people are weird....

My wife said "I don't know" she acting kinda funny.

 

I said "Everybody funny, now you funny too!"

Edited October 26, 2021 by The Wiz

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Allen might be the most physically gifted QB to ever play the position. He also has a farm boy work ethic and has been overlooked as a QB most of his life.

 

Mahomes is great. I believe Allen will be greater.

 

Give me Allen.

 

 

I don't believe the "most physically gifted QB" stuff with Allen.   He is a beast but he still lacks the touch and timing of other elite passers.   That is part of the physical equation, IMO.   If he can throw it on a line he is as good as it gets.   If he has to put air under the throw he's not as impressive as Brady(obviously) nor the other young QB's Mahomes, Murray, Herbert or Burrow.   The advantage he has is that he is an absolute physical beast.   If the throws aren't there he can run for big plays and get away with it easier than those other guys.    He also may be able to outlast the other guys........and finish more seasons........because he is built to withstand punishment.    Basically Kyler Murray's season came apart last year because he got hit a few times and lost his edge.    In the back of my mind I expect that to be the case this year as well.   

[Pags24]

I'm taking Allen, but it's close.  Mainly, I'm a homer and like Allen more.

[TheFunPolice]

Allen's game is more rugged, edgy, tough. When things get snowy, ugly and muddy Allen is still in his element. But Allen can also play the pretty game now, as we've seen.

 

To me, Mahomes excels at the pretty game, but when the sledding gets rough and the pretty plays aren't there he just starts trying to play hero ball. 

 

 

 

 

[NewEra]

18 hours ago, NewEra said:

In the context of the OP….”long term” is the discussion.  Nowhere in “long term” includes the past.  It’s not a moot point.  Choosing Mahomes doesn’t give us a Lombardi.  We’re talking about the future…..not past accomplishments.  If the discussion is who’s had the best career, than your argument carries all the weight.  Mahomes all day.  There’s just not much we can debate with regards to what will happen “long term”.  
 

The only thing to discuss, imo, is who would you rather have long term.  I’ll roll with 17.  He’s more exciting.  I believe he will be more durable and play longer.  He’s a better person, leader and representative of our franchise.  He sounds better in interviews and his entourage isn’t annoying af.  He choke slams defensive lineman and has a jumpman silhouette.   Not sure why any current Bills fan would rather have Mahomes over allen long term.  Past accomplishments bring nothing to the table in the future.  

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes,  you and some people in this thread are definitely playing make believe.

 

Patrick Mahomes having won a SB is not make believe,  it's reality.

 

The damage is done already........he's won a SB and he's also directly prevented you from reaching a SB.

 

By rights, after 3 years of #1 seed status his team SHOULD be cycling out somewhat.........so being like "but yeah NOW I think Josh Allen will be better than him" just because the Bills are in a temporarily favorable roster/schedule situation is a pretty humorous way of looking at it.      

 

Except that’s not the case at all.  Where did I say that Allen will be better than Mahomes?  I listed several reasons why I’d rather have him.  None of which had to do with him ever being better. 
 

The topic at hand in this thread pertains to the long term and sustainable success of Allen and Mahomes.  The future. That’s what we are discussing here.  Yes….any statement made regarding either players future performance is make believe.  
 

I view Allen and Mahomes as elite QBs.  The difference between them is a Lombardi.  You’d be splitting hairs when comparing Mahomes mvp season stats vs Josh’s last year.  No, josh didn’t win and mvp, but he wasn’t any less of a QB.  Mahomes has an early leg up because he’s won a super bowl at the but then I think about bolded in my quote above and that’s why I’d rather root for 17 the next 10-20 years.

 

I’ve seen enough from 17 where I feel comfortable saying that he will never be the reason we don’t win a super bowl.  He has what it takes.  Will the coaching staff and his supporting cast give him enough support to win it all.  Josh didn’t play well in the AFCCG, but that loss was on our coaching staff.  Terrible game plan on both sides of the ball.  Weak OL play.  Similar to how Mahomes lost the SB.  He wasn’t good…..but he wasn’t the reason they lost.  McB has to succeed in order for allen to win one.  McD didn’t succeed in the AFCCG, preventing josh from having a legit chance. You know this. 
 

 

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I don't believe the "most physically gifted QB" stuff with Allen.   He is a beast but he still lacks the touch and timing of other elite passers.   That is part of the physical equation, IMO.   If he can throw it on a line he is as good as it gets.   If he has to put air under the throw he's not as impressive as Brady(obviously) nor the other young QB's Mahomes, Murray, Herbert or Burrow.   The advantage he has is that he is an absolute physical beast.   If the throws aren't there he can run for big plays and get away with it easier than those other guys.    He also may be able to outlast the other guys........and finish more seasons........because he is built to withstand punishment.    Basically Kyler Murray's season came apart last year because he got hit a few times and lost his edge.    In the back of my mind I expect that to be the case this year as well.   

 

I would say another advantage he has is that if tight windows are closing he can get the ball there so fast its still a completion.  Not many, if any other QBs can throw some of those passes he is capable of.

[transplantbillsfan]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I don't believe the "most physically gifted QB" stuff with Allen.   He is a beast but he still lacks the touch and timing of other elite passers.   That is part of the physical equation, IMO.   If he can throw it on a line he is as good as it gets.   If he has to put air under the throw he's not as impressive as Brady(obviously) nor the other young QB's Mahomes, Murray, Herbert or Burrow.   The advantage he has is that he is an absolute physical beast.   If the throws aren't there he can run for big plays and get away with it easier than those other guys.    He also may be able to outlast the other guys........and finish more seasons........because he is built to withstand punishment.    Basically Kyler Murray's season came apart last year because he got hit a few times and lost his edge.    In the back of my mind I expect that to be the case this year as well.   

 

Allen is a combination of size, speed, elusiveness and arm strength that you simply can't teach.

 

Those are what you call "traits" because you really don't get noticeably better at them.

 

What you mentioned that he lacks is touch. That can be taught.

 

Greg Cosell has called Allen the most physically gifted QB in the NFL on multiple occasions.

[BruceVilanch]

36 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

What you mentioned that he lacks is touch. That can be taught.

and it has been taught, look at the difference in his touch throws between year 1 and today, night and day difference.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Allen is a combination of size, speed, elusiveness and arm strength that you simply can't teach.

 

Those are what you call "traits" because you really don't get noticeably better at them.

 

What you mentioned that he lacks is touch. That can be taught.

 

Greg Cosell has called Allen the most physically gifted QB in the NFL on multiple occasions.

 

 

A gift is something that is given..........touch/timing is natural to many passers.......a gift they have..........for some that's all that gets them to the league.........it's very valuable to be gifted with it.

 

Allen is going to have to work for that........it's most definitely not been gifted to him.   He will throw seemingly simple touch passes that look like a HS JV QB at times(like the screens to RB's in the KC game).

 

Most natural gifts can be improved upon........Allen is proof of that........he has improved his accuracy, running speed.......a number of things.   Brady is obviously the standard,  he is more physically talented at 44 than he was early in his career.

 

But is Allen more naturally gifted than guys like Herbert or Lawrence?

 

I think they both throw with better natural touch, timing and anticipation than Allen.   It's readily apparent.  They are both very big, very athletic and have very strong arms.   On the hoof they are very comparable and maybe even more "gifted" than Allen.

 

What Allen doesn't get enough credit for is his mental makeup.........he's smart,  driven to win and has a ton of emotional intelligence...........which makes him a leader and that is a non-physical trait that combines with his gifts to give him a chance to be an all-time great.