Mahomes vs Allen - The Long Term Knight

[rayray808]

“Ah you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!”

 

ADVERSITY: : a state or instance of serious or continued difficulty or misfortune.

 

 

When looking at the debate over long term and sustainable success in regards to Mahomes vs Allen - the one thing I circle back to is the concept of adversity and grit.

 

During his time in the league, Mahomes has already accomplished things other players would be happy to achieve over the course of their entire careers. He has already won a Super Bowl, a league MVP and a Super Bowl MVP, while dropping jaws and setting all kinds of records along the way. Here's the thing though: He took over for Alex Smith after the Chiefs made the playoffs 3 years in a row, and had a solid team and was already surrounded by tons of talent.

 

Josh Allen however was thrown into a pure dumpster fire in his first game as a pro after Peterman threw 5 picks in the first half. We lost 47-3 that day and he had to throw to guys like Kelvin Benjamin, who put in close to zero effort to helping Josh or the team. It was the beginning of the roster reset in Buffalo and Allen was along for every bump along the road.

 

FAST FORWARD TO TODAY: the Chiefs are starting to struggle, and Mahomes is pressing to try and make something happen for his team. "Sugar high Pat"? Nah, the media would never say such a thing. However, now we get to see how he responds to having to deal with adversity through a struggling defense, and tougher division.

 

Is Mahomes a solid QB? YES. Absolutely.

 

However, is Josh Allen? YOU BET.

 

Long term QB? Give me Josh Allen all day. I cannot even fathom the type of plays he would do week in and week out with leading a team that's firing on all cylinders like KC has been for the past 5 years.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by rayray808

[JGMcD2]

3 minutes ago, rayray808 said:

Long term QB? Give me Josh Allen all day. I cannot even fathom the type of plays he would do week in and week out with leading a team that's firing on all cylinders like KC has been for the past 5 years.

He’s already making them… we’re spoiled by Joshua Patrick Allen. 

[rayray808]

Just now, JGMcD2 said:

He’s already making them… we’re spoiled by Joshua Patrick Allen. 

 

Imagine what Allen would look like if he had guys who got as much YAC as what the crew in KC does for their QB?!?!?!

[BillsFan130]

8 minutes ago, rayray808 said:

 

Imagine what Allen would look like if he had guys who got as much YAC as what the crew in KC does for their QB?!?!?!

We were spoiled with the YAC of Lee Smith the last few years 

[BADOLBILZ]

Meh.

 

Mahomes has been to the last two Super Bowls and won a Lombardi.   Was also the league MVP.

 

I am a huge Allen fan but until he evens the ledger.........which is no guarantee (ask Kelly and Marino about SB rings).........it's a moot point.

 

If actual accomplishments mean nothing then Jackson and Herbert and Burrow and maybe Lawrence and even DeShaun Watson(if he gets off the hook) are all in the mix as "potentially" greater longer term AFC QB's than Allen or Mahomes.    The days of there only being 3-5 consistently elite QB's in the league are probably over.

[RiotAct]

League MVP is basically a popularity contest, that doesn’t move the needle for me.

[Cruiserplayer]

1 hour ago, rayray808 said:

FAST FORWARD TO TODAY: the Chiefs are starting to struggle, and Mahomes is pressing to try and make something happen for his team. "Sugar high Pat"? Nah, the media would never say such a thing

Sugar High Pat and his Tweekers

[JimmyNoodles]

I love Allen and dislike Mahomes but it’s all about winning a SB.  

[RobbRiddick]

Imagine how good Allen would be if Patrick was his first name

[LeGOATski]

It's no coincidence that Josh's mom's name is Martha.

[Buffalo Junction]

I believe they actually did use “sugar high Mahomes” last week on GMFB. Lol. 

[GunnerBill]

I am loathe to make long term prognostications based on a few games. Allen didn't play great the first two weeks and some (admittedly unwise) people were writing last year off as fluke. 4 weeks late he is an MVP contender. Sample size matters.

 

What is without question is Mahomes is having the poorest season of his career and while his team around him isn't helping much that is no excuse for some of the mistakes he is making. 

 

Allen and Mahomes played at a pretty similar level to each other in 2020. In 2021 Allen is ahead so far and it is not a particularly small margin at this stage.

 

Edited October 25, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Matt_In_NH]

People act like Allen is not given his due in the media, he is.  He is routinely talked about in MVP conversations.   Just because someone gave him the nickname sugar high Josh (which was earned) does not mean they think he is some second rate player.  I do agree though, the recent Mahomes play is "Sugar High" esque and would be played up that way in the media.  However, that INT he blooped up was criticized as a poor decision which it was.  If you play QB you will make some bad decisions, it's part of the job.  The fact remains though, for many in the media, Josh is not on par with Mahomes until he wins a SB.  Fair or not fair, that is how great QB's are judged.

[eball]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I am loathe to make long term prognostications based on a few games. Allen didn't play great the first two weeks and some (admittedly unwise) people were writing last year off as fluke. 4 weeks late he is an MVP contender. Sample size matters.

 

What is without question is Mahomes is having the poorest season of his career and while his team around him isn't helping much that is no excuse for some of the mistakes he is making. 

 

Allen and Mahomes played at a pretty similar level to each other in 2020. In 2021 Allen is ahead so far and it is not a particularly small margin at this stage.

 

 

Agreed.  Casual fans (and probably even some not-so-casual ones) are going to continue to expect Mahomes to do 2018-2020 Mahomes-like things, but right now it’s clear he is pressing.  An intellectually honest evaluation of his play this year has to point out the poor decisions that have put the Chiefs in a bad spot.

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

This isn't just a few games off for Mahomes. I remember as far back as middle of last season he looked rather human. This year he's looked worse. Yes, he's still dangerous...but is it him or the Kelce/Hill combo that makes him better? Time well tell there.

 

But for all the praise given to him over the years one thing is certain for me. He hasn't progressed from where he was and gotten better. Seems to me at least he's bought into his own press and makes really poor decisions because "I'm Mahomes and I can"...but now he cannot.

 

Flip over to Allen and he gets better every year. Where there was a huge gap between Allen and the top QBs before...now there is none. 

 

Tl;dr- The difference between Allen and Mahomes is that 1 player is ascending and 1 is descending. 1 player makes those around him better and the other you could argue is better because his surrounding cast bails him out.

[SMAKCruiser]

8 hours ago, rayray808 said:

“Ah you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!”

 

ADVERSITY: : a state or instance of serious or continued difficulty or misfortune.

 

 

When looking at the debate over long term and sustainable success in regards to Mahomes vs Allen - the one thing I circle back to is the concept of adversity and grit.

 

During his time in the league, Mahomes has already accomplished things other players would be happy to achieve over the course of their entire careers. He has already won a Super Bowl, a league MVP and a Super Bowl MVP, while dropping jaws and setting all kinds of records along the way. Here's the thing though: He took over for Alex Smith after the Chiefs made the playoffs 3 years in a row, and had a solid team and was already surrounded by tons of talent.

 

Josh Allen however was thrown into a pure dumpster fire in his first game as a pro after Peterman threw 5 picks in the first half. We lost 47-3 that day and he had to throw to guys like Kelvin Benjamin, who put in close to zero effort to helping Josh or the team. It was the beginning of the roster reset in Buffalo and Allen was along for every bump along the road.

 

FAST FORWARD TO TODAY: the Chiefs are starting to struggle, and Mahomes is pressing to try and make something happen for his team. "Sugar high Pat"? Nah, the media would never say such a thing. However, now we get to see how he responds to having to deal with adversity through a struggling defense, and tougher division.

 

Is Mahomes a solid QB? YES. Absolutely.

 

However, is Josh Allen? YOU BET.

 

Long term QB? Give me Josh Allen all day. I cannot even fathom the type of plays he would do week in and week out with leading a team that's firing on all cylinders like KC has been for the past 5 years.

 

 

Peterman didn't throw 5 picks in the 47-3 loss to the Ravens

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

This isn't just a few games off for Mahomes. I remember as far back as middle of last season he looked rather human. This year he's looked worse. Yes, he's still dangerous...but is it him or the Kelce/Hill combo that makes him better? Time well tell there.

 

But for all the praise given to him over the years one thing is certain for me. He hasn't progressed from where he was and gotten better. Seems to me at least he's bought into his own press and makes really poor decisions because "I'm Mahomes and I can"...but now he cannot.

 

Flip over to Allen and he gets better every year. Where there was a huge gap between Allen and the top QBs before...now there is none. 

 

Tl;dr- The difference between Allen and Mahomes is that 1 player is ascending and 1 is descending. 1 player makes those around him better and the other you could argue is better because his surrounding cast bails him out.

 

I don't agree with the bolded. It was never the case that Mahomes was just being bailed out by his cast. If it was why isn't that happening now? The truth to me is as simple as this - Mahomes this season is not playing very well. It doesn't take away at all from how great he has been before. But this season he isn't playing well. 

[Doc]

Until last season, I lamented the Bills trading-out of the 10th spot in the 2017 draft.  Now I'm glad they did and would rather have Josh.

[Buddo]

All QBs need reliable guys to throw to. Look what happened with Brady in his latter days at the Cheatriots - no-one to throw to, so things became increasingly difficult.

 

Apart from the fact that KC's defense is rubbish, teams are paying a great deal of attention to stopping both Hill and Kelce. The guy who might be the more needed stop, being Kelce, who had a season for all time last year.

 

If thoise two don't perform, or Mahomes can't get the football to them, KC struggle. Years past they had better additional options at WR (e.g. Watkins), who were also a threat.

[BuffaloBillyG]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree with the bolded. It was never the case that Mahomes was just being bailed out by his cast. If it was why isn't that happening now? The truth to me is as simple as this - Mahomes this season is not playing very well. It doesn't take away at all from how great he has been before. But this season he isn't playing well. 

My thought on this is maybe a bit overly simplistic. But, Travis Kelce has always been Travis Kelce. Hill has always been Hill. Mahomes hasn't taken them to any new heights.

 

Many times we see these great Mahomes plays and when it gets broken down it's just a matter of him winging it deep and Hill outrunning everyone. Mahomes has even said as much. 

 

I believe he falls into the category (as does Hill and Kelce) of teams have figured out ways to defend them. As of yet, there has been very little of an answer from the Chiefs on fixing it. This is much more than just 6 or 7 games this year as well. Going as far back as the Dolphins/Chiefs game last year things have slowed down for that offense. While Mahomes has done great things in the past (and taking nothing away from his past accomplishments) he's finally looking every bit the player that scouting reports had him as coming out of college. The NFL has caught up to him. Can he adjust and improve? Maybe.