2017 Re-Draft - What would you do?

[Dr. Who]

8 minutes ago, Dopey said:

'Josh will prove out to be the better of the two when they are both retired. "

 

To the quote above, from baadthings, I simply stated Josh was way behind Mahomes. I don't get the "calm" thing going on. Or even the "truculent" thing. You came at me for my reply to someone else. I'm fine. 

As of right now Mahomes has been the better QB. SB MVP, NFL MVP, better record, more wins, etc. To get to the point of being the better of the two, when both have retired, Josh has a lot of ground to make up. Hence, he's way behind. 

Back to this"truculent" thing, looking back on this... are you the pot calling the kettle black? If you can't honestly answer yes, don't bother.

The topic of the OP is regards to a redraft and the relative merits of each qb and who one would draft, etc. I took that to be the general context in which case, as I think I have indicated, I don't think Josh is way behind. I anticipated your apparent criteria, which does not seem to me to fit the topic that I surmised was the actual context in which one should interpret your contribution to this thread. You seem unduly exercised over truculent. I have explained why it seemed to me an appropriate word. I don't think most folks would have taken such umbrage, but perhaps not. Have a good one.

[BillsfaninSB]

The 2017 trade back helped the Bills get Dawkins and Edmunds as well.

 

What I would have done is not let Gilmore walk.  I would have signed and trade.   That could have been another 1st round pick.  Maybe get Mahonmes and Tre. 

[TH3]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

He's on the right path, but he's still way behind Mahomes.

Herbert.

Your Poster name checks out

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

The 2017 Chiefs were 6th in points scored and 5th in yards. Hunt led the league in rushing at 1300+. Hill was a Probowl 1200 yd wr. Kelce was a 1000 yd probowl TE.... Mahomes absolutely stepped into it... He's also an awesome QB.

 

The Chiefs were productive but highly inconsistent........they didn't spend $16M per on Sammy Watkins after that season because they thought Kelce and Hill were enough........they hadn't been enough to advance in the playoffs despite a very well regarded, productive QB.   The Bills had no problem shutting them down in KC that season either.........and that was immediately after the worst 3 game defensive stretch if franchise history.   

 

Now the 2016 Bills..........they had EXCELLENT offensive numbers.

 

Going into the finale (where they tanked by benching Tyrod) they were 7th in the NFL in scoring,  lead the NFL in rushing for the second straight season,  lead the NFL in big plays (with over 100 plays of 20+ yards) for the second straight season.........and despite all that talent they had produced the fewest turnovers thru 15 games of any team since the AFL/NFL merger.  

 

So the idea that Mahomes could only have inherited bad talent in Buffalo is a fallacy.........there was a lot of talent on those Whaley/Rex teams.

 

The Bills chose to re-organize........the Chiefs chose to trade up for a QB and keep their frustrating/disappointing roster intact........including the highly controversial Tyreek Hill....... to see what the stud young QB could do with it.

 

 They kept it together and have had home field advantage in each of the last 3 AFC playoffs,  won the AFC twice and a Super Bowl.

 

It's easy to say you'd rather be in the Bills shoes right now when KC is struggling against a tough schedule after 3 straight years of conference domination..........but if any fanbase should know that a SB-in-hand is worth a dynasty in the bush it's Bills fans.  

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

I’m extremely happy with the state of our team. Wouldn’t change a thing.  We’ll get ours

 

 

You wouldn't even have traded up for Travis Etienne?  C'mon, man.

 

(I always have to keep in mind that half of the people responding to these threads would draft a running back in round 1. )

 

 

Lotta' lyin' and denyin' going on in this thread. 😉

 

It's about winning it all.

 

I'm enjoying every moment of this season, cuz that's how I am,  but as a fan of teams who have won titles........unless you have some mental illness where you are more engaged by feeling bad for yourself.........winning one makes everything that much more enjoyable thereafter.    

[NewEra]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You wouldn't even have traded up for Travis Etienne?  C'mon, man.

 

(I always have to keep in mind that half of the people responding to these threads would draft a running back in round 1. )

 

 

Lotta' lyin' and denyin' going on in this thread. 😉

 

It's about winning it all.

 

I'm enjoying every moment of this season, cuz that's how I am,  but as a fan of teams who have won titles........unless you have some mental illness where you are more engaged by feeling bad for yourself.........winning one makes everything that much more enjoyable thereafter.    

In a 2017 draft “do over” I’d take Mahomes IF we were guaranteed to have won a super bowl in his first 3 years.  I don’t think it’s a given that Mahomes would’ve won one.  I doubt that we would have, jmo.  
 

considering that we can’t just award us a Lombardi in a make believe world in which we would’ve drafted Mahomes, I’m happy with our decisions.  
 

I definitely didn’t have my heart set on Etienne.  I remember being pretty happy when Jacksonville drafted him. At one point, predraft, I remember thinking that we needed speed @ Rb.  Someone that can be a threat to score anytime he touches the ball.  We then signed Brieda prior to the draft, so I didn’t think we should/would consider rb rd 1. 
 

Kenneth Gainwell instead Tommy Doyle would’ve been nice imo.  

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

This thread is such BS. Posted after a bad Mahomes performance. One of the few in his career. 

first of all, Mahomes would go first overall in a re-draft, followed by Watson and White would be gone by the 10th pick. 

Second, if we had picked Mahomes. We would love him. And as long as Allen wasn’t picked by an AFC east team the following year we wouldn’t hate him as much as some hate Mahomes now.
 

Mahomes would have come in for Tyrod instead of Nathan freaking Peterman. We ended up losing to the team that almost made it to the super bowl. Do you believe the upgrade from Tyrod to Mahomes would have made the difference? That’s a much better question than any you asked. 
 

Third, you’re framing the second question as if we wouldn’t have two players instead of the picks we used to acquire Allen. That’s just plain dishonest.

[CorkScrewHill]

3 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

The topic of the OP is regards to a redraft and the relative merits of each qb and who one would draft, etc. I took that to be the general context in which case, as I think I have indicated, I don't think Josh is way behind. I anticipated your apparent criteria, which does not seem to me to fit the topic that I surmised was the actual context in which one should interpret your contribution to this thread. You seem unduly exercised over truculent. I have explained why it seemed to me an appropriate word. I don't think most folks would have taken such umbrage, but perhaps not. Have a good one.

I often take umbrage to help with my truculent .. I guess it is an age thing but those umbrage really do the trick

[Dr. Who]

10 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

I often take umbrage to help with my truculent .. I guess it is an age thing but those umbrage really do the trick

Just make sure you get the generic umbrage, because the brand name umbrage is priced out of sight.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Dr. Who

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

12 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Second, if we had picked Mahomes. We would love him. And as long as Allen wasn’t picked by an AFC east team the following year we wouldn’t hate him as much as some hate Mahomes now.

 

Probably not hate, but there would be a lot of mockery of Allen on this board. Just like how we see fans from across the league continue to mock Allen as inaccurate, dumb and a running back. 

 

The take away with Mahomes and the Chiefs struggling is that Mahomes is not the God QB that so many made him out to be. It's clear he can be kept in check and even more clear is that the league has a handful of young QB's that are putting themselves on Mahomes level. Murray and Allen are there now.  And even younger QB's like Herbert and Burrow look like they can get there.

 

We all knew that Mahomes was put in the best opporutnity in NFL history for a young QB to start and succeed right away. Credit to Mahomes that he put up one of the greatest seasons ever out of the gate in his second year. The question left on answered was weather or not any other QB's could catch Mahomes if Mahomes situation declined a bit and the others got better. So far it looks like the answer is yes. Mahomes is still great but he is no longer at the top by himself looking down on the other QB's.

12 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Mahomes would have come in for Tyrod instead of Nathan freaking Peterman. We ended up losing to the team that almost made it to the super bowl. Do you believe the upgrade from Tyrod to Mahomes would have made the difference? That’s a much better question than any you asked. 

 

How would have Mahomes faired against the leagues #1 defense as a rookie throwing to KB, Charles Clay, Zay Jones and Andre Holmes? Impossible to say since we never saw Mahomes in meaningful action his rookie year and we've yet to see him put up all world numbers without a great receiving corps. 

[MiltonWaddams]

The only thing that would interest me about having Mahomes as the Bills qb is what the fans would do when his brother started tik tok’ing his stupid sideline dances.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You wouldn't even have traded up for Travis Etienne?  C'mon, man.

 

(I always have to keep in mind that half of the people responding to these threads would draft a running back in round 1. )

 

 

Lotta' lyin' and denyin' going on in this thread. 😉

 

It's about winning it all.

 

I'm enjoying every moment of this season, cuz that's how I am,  but as a fan of teams who have won titles........unless you have some mental illness where you are more engaged by feeling bad for yourself.........winning one makes everything that much more enjoyable thereafter.    

i wouldnt say its lyin loll i think the general sentiment with mahomes this year thats not even exclusive to this board is hes great but hes benefitting greatly from the outrageous offensive talent around him.  I cant imagine what Allen could do with someone like Kelce on the roster...its a shame Knox got hurt just when he started playing well.    Mahomes struggled in a few games late last year too and hes looked pretty mortal this year.  maybe they will figure it all out and everyone will look stupid but at this point i dont think plopping mahomes on the bill roster the last few years wouldve won us a super bowl.

[frostbitmic]

I wanted the massage enthusiast Watson in that draft, considering that Tre' has been great and Watson's career and life are in limbo, we made the right choice. Getting Josh and Tre2 the next year was the icing on the cake.

 

If we had drafted Mahomes, we may have gone to the Super Bowl, and lost, last year. With another year under his belt, Josh should get us there this year.

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

i wouldnt say its lyin loll i think the general sentiment with mahomes this year thats not even exclusive to this board is hes great but hes benefitting greatly from the outrageous offensive talent around him.  I cant imagine what Allen could do with someone like Kelce on the roster...its a shame Knox got hurt just when he started playing well.    Mahomes struggled in a few games late last year too and hes looked pretty mortal this year.  maybe they will figure it all out and everyone will look stupid but at this point i dont think plopping mahomes on the bill roster the last few years wouldve won us a super bowl.

 

 

As I said.......nobody was saying that Kelce and Hill were an "outrageous" offensive tandem when they played with Alex Smith at QB.   That's why they paid top dollar for Sammy in free agency in 2018.

 

I suggest anyone that has game pass go back and watch that 2017 game between the Chiefs and Bills...........the quality of QB play from the above average and productive Alex Smith to the spectacular Patrick Mahomes was immense.   The Bills defense forced the Chiefs skill players into positions where they knew Alex Smith would struggle to get them the ball,  effectively neutralizing their offense.

 

2018 Mahomes playing in that game would have blown the Bills doors off that day.   The weapons are nice but his ability to make throws that can't be defensed has been a game changer.   If you don't think the situation is similar here with Allen you are wrong.   He makes throws all the time that allow guys like Diggs and Sanders and Knox to run routes that are impossible to defense.   People don't appreciate the difficulty of plays like the TD throw to Diggs late in the Arizona game last season.......or even the over shoulder TD pass to Sanders in KC two weeks ago.   Those are plays only a great thrower of the football can make and they make the skill players look that much more dynamic. 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Why would I want a frog when we can have a prince?

[Alphadawg7]

We are the best team in the AFC right now.  The same AFC that has Mahomes in it.  I wouldn't change a thing.  Mahomes walked into a Super Bowl roster day 1.  Allen walked into the NFL raw with a bottom third roster.  

 

It took longer for Allen and the team around him to get the same level as Mahomes and the Chiefs, but we are there now and we are better than they currently are.  In fact, we are built to be better for a sustained period of time.  

 

Until we win a SB too, the case will always be able to be made for Mahomes.  Even though its ridiculous to even suggest Mahomes would have won a SB as fast as he did with the roster he would have had here during that time.  

 

But once we win a SB, and mark my words, we will.  This topic will never be a valid question again.  Allen finished ahead of Mahomes in the MVP voting last year, and certainly will again this year...he is already on his level.  Now throw in one of the best defenders in the league in Tre, and its clear Allen + Tre > Mahomes in terms of the team build.  Not to mention, we also wouldn't have Edmunds had we not made those trades.  

[Mango]

15 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

This thread is such BS. Posted after a bad Mahomes performance. One of the few in his career. 

first of all, Mahomes would go first overall in a re-draft, followed by Watson and White would be gone by the 10th pick. 

Second, if we had picked Mahomes. We would love him. And as long as Allen wasn’t picked by an AFC east team the following year we wouldn’t hate him as much as some hate Mahomes now.
 

Mahomes would have come in for Tyrod instead of Nathan freaking Peterman. We ended up losing to the team that almost made it to the super bowl. Do you believe the upgrade from Tyrod to Mahomes would have made the difference? That’s a much better question than any you asked. 
 

Third, you’re framing the second question as if we wouldn’t have two players instead of the picks we used to acquire Allen. That’s just plain dishonest.

 

Agreed. I love Allen. If you asked me last year, I would have probably gone Mahomes and not really blinked. 

This year, I don't really give a shirt one way or the other. I am thrilled with both. 

To add to your points, it all depends on how far back you go with it. Allen and Tre or Mahomes and Vita Vea?

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

nobody was saying that Kelce and Hill were an "outrageous" offensive tandem when they played with Alex Smith at QB.

 

I mean this is just not true. Alex Smith suddenly had a career resurgence with KC and everyone gave credit to the combo of Hill and Kelce and Andy Reid. Obviously Mahomes is a much better QB than Smith and has pushed that offense's ceiling to the sky. But the talent was always there.

 

I have no clue what Mahomes would look like throwing to a WR tandem of John Brown, Duke Williams, and Cole Beasley, but it wouldn't be a 5000 yard performance. I can guarantee that.

 

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

That's why they paid top dollar for Sammy in free agency in 2018.

 

And now they lost him and suddenly the offense is looking more like it did with Alex Smith at the helm, unable to move the ball consistently without hitting big plays downfield. This point contradicts your argument.

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I mean this is just not true. Alex Smith suddenly had a career resurgence with KC and everyone gave credit to the combo of Hill and Kelce and Andy Reid. Obviously Mahomes is a much better QB than Smith and has pushed that offense's ceiling to the sky. But the talent was always there.

 

I have no clue what Mahomes would look like throwing to a WR tandem of John Brown, Duke Williams, and Cole Beasley, but it wouldn't be a 5000 yard performance. I can guarantee that.

 

 

And now they lost him and suddenly the offense is looking more like it did with Alex Smith at the helm, unable to move the ball consistently without hitting big plays downfield. This point contradicts your argument.

I will push back so hard on the argument that Mahomes suddenly doesn’t have enough weapons. It’s such an obvious rewrite.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I mean this is just not true. Alex Smith suddenly had a career resurgence with KC and everyone gave credit to the combo of Hill and Kelce and Andy Reid. Obviously Mahomes is a much better QB than Smith and has pushed that offense's ceiling to the sky. But the talent was always there.

 

I have no clue what Mahomes would look like throwing to a WR tandem of John Brown, Duke Williams, and Cole Beasley, but it wouldn't be a 5000 yard performance. I can guarantee that.

 

 

And now they lost him and suddenly the offense is looking more like it did with Alex Smith at the helm, unable to move the ball consistently without hitting big plays downfield. This point contradicts your argument.

 

GTFOH with that nonsense. 

 

Alex Smith didn't have a career resurgence in KC.   He was having an excellent season in SF in 2012........including putting up over 600 yards of offense against Buffalo(worst defensive game in Bills history, how could you forget who the QB was).......before an injury ended his season and he was traded to KC that offseason.

 

His completion % dropped from 70% to 60% in his first year in KC and his yards per attempt fell from 8.0 to 6.5.   That's A LOT if you didn't know.

 

The next season the Chiefs with Andy Reid and Alex Smith at the helm became the only team since the merger to not throw a single touchdown pass to a wide receiver.

 

All the while,  he was a steady and productive QB.

 

He had an excellent year in 2017 but the team was only 9-6 in his starts.    He also had the benefit of the league's leading rusher.......a near 2,000 yard all purpose season from Kareem Hunt........and a top 10 defense.

 

And they promptly lost in the WC round yet again.

 

Mahomes inherited a dynamic offense but didn't get the same Kareem Hunt.    The Chiefs defense also fell off significantly in 2018.

 

Mahomes lead a lesser team to the #1 seed in the conference.    He was the difference maker.

 

I'm not saying the Chiefs didn't set him up to succeed but the notion that they were overwhelming the league offensively prior to drafting Mahomes is not true.   In fact, the 2016 Bills offense was BETTER than the 2016 Chiefs offense.   The Bills chose to tear it down and not select a QB that spring.