FilthyBeast Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 The real test of how good a GM Beane is will come in the next few years when resigning key FA and/or outside FA becomes much more difficult to do given the gig contracts recently handed out, specfically with JA17. So we will find out how good a talent evaluator he truly is since the draft will become our main resource to replenish this team and find legit starters. I still think that Beane and his front office/scouting staff need to reevaluate how they go about building the trenches though and it's still a major blemish that someone didn't see what we had in Wyatt Teller and felt he was expendable especially entering the 2019 season when getting back to the playoffs with a developing QB in this 2nd season was far from a sure thing. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: and it's still a major blemish that someone didn't see what we had in Wyatt Teller and felt he was expendable especially entering the 2019 season I hear you BUT I have to say that when Teller was drafted Juan Castillo was the OL coach. We don't know what he did with the rookie and it's hard to blame Bobby Johnson for missing his talent when he had a lot of work to do when he came to the Bills in 2019. I don't think that this one "miss" is endemic of a negative condition of the Bills OL evaluations. The OL needs work no doubt but it is way ahead of what is was in 2017-2018. I see more changes coming for the OL next year. Quote
GunnerBill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 2 hours ago, CaliBills said: I find it interesting on trying to say if a draft pick is successful or not. Because in my opinion, it depends on the method on which a GM drafts players. Some GMs look for the most "NFL ready" players. While Beane looks at ability/size and says "I trust our coaches to bring out the best and teach them" which I am sure is the fundamental agreement between Beane and McDermott. If the coaches do their jobs, then these draft picks can become something special. Examples: Knox, Edmunds, Allen, Rousseau, Spencer Brown Then they sign vets that are proven to help develop those players along as well. Success vs Failure is not just a 1 person thing. It falls on GM/HC/OC/DC/Assistants/Teammates/Executives/Scouts/hell maybe even the ball boys or equipment managers lol. A lot of truth in this. Beane is a good GM but he also has an easier job than any GM in Buffalo maybe forever. Because he is drafting players into a programmatic and organisational approach. Previous GMs have been drafting into dysfunction. 2 Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 4 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: That’s the furthest thing from the truth. I’d love to see some evidence on that. You’re speaking based on emotion and opinion with no objective information. I have displayed objective information related to the draft multiple times on this board - for when you clap back and say I’ve done the same thing. There is an article in the Buffalo news if you google it that says it was a total of two players and six picks to get Allen. The link won't upload for some reason. 4 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: He’s making the point that without Josh Allen, Beane’s drafts have been bad and would have gotten him fired. I’m talking purely from a return standpoint, that’s not true. No hypotheticals or anything. I’m saying - fine, let’s remove Josh from the equation and look at his drafts. They’re still above average and would not be grounds to fire him. No that is the exact opposite point I am making. I even said his drafts were above average. What I am saying is if he missed on Allen and Allen was a bust he would be out of a job. That of course assumes the team has a losing record and is not a playoff team. You can't trade away multiple players and picks and then miss on the QB. If Oliver is never a superstar, who cares. It's a mild blemish on Beane's record. No one will care if Allen delivers the Bills a SB. Right or wrong McD and Beane's legacy is nearly entirely linked to how Allen plays. 2 Quote
CorkScrewHill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 My problem is there are typically only a few "can't miss" prospects per year, and McDermott keeps screwing up Beane's chance to get them by going to the playoffs. We should fire McDermott and get back to drafting all those stud players For where they were picked I think these guys have shown very well: - Gregory Rousseau; Spencer Brown; Gabe Davis, Tyler Bass; Dawson Knox (recency bias); Taron Johnson I also think these are solid players, and you need solid players, as no team can have a roster of superstars .. it is unrealistic and unmaintainable from a salary cap perspective - Tremaine Edmunds; Harrison Phillips; Siran Neal; Ed Oliver; Devin Singletary; Zack Moss; Dane Jackson; Carlos Basham Almost all of the players he has drafted are on an active roster and the ones that are not are on a Practice Squad. That is quite an achievement. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: There is an article in the Buffalo news if you google it that says it was a total of two players and six picks to get Allen. The link won't upload for some reason. It seems to me that is true for the Bills total cost to get Josh. But the 2 players have to Cordy Glenn and Sammy Watkins. If that is what they are doing then the return to Buffalo would be Josh Allen PLUS all the residuals in the Cordy, Watkins and the Tampa trades. Right? Quote
GunnerBill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 30 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: It seems to me that is true for the Bills total cost to get Josh. But the 2 players have to Cordy Glenn and Sammy Watkins. If that is what they are doing then the return to Buffalo would be Josh Allen PLUS all the residuals in the Cordy, Watkins and the Tampa trades. Right? So the two players Glenn and Watkins. The picks... the one we took him with #7 overall, the two second rounders we used to get up from #11 to #7.... that is 3. Which are the other picks? Quote
Blank Stare Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 No. But even if you think Josh is, that’s one helluva hit. Most important position in sports and he nailed it. 1 Quote
BringBackFlutie Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 Is Allen a success? Can you say that!? Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So the two players Glenn and Watkins. The picks... the one we took him with #7 overall, the two second rounders we used to get up from #11 to #7.... that is 3. Which are the other picks? That is kind of what I'm saying. Bills used 2 more picks bundled with the Cordy Glenn trade and one other pick to get the Watkins pick. What isn't said is all the picks and E.J. Gaines in return. It seems a little skewed in the way they talk about it. Quote
JGMcD2 Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said: No that is the exact opposite point I am making. I even said his drafts were above average. What I am saying is if he missed on Allen and Allen was a bust he would be out of a job. That of course assumes the team has a losing record and is not a playoff team. You can't trade away multiple players and picks and then miss on the QB. If Oliver is never a superstar, who cares. It's a mild blemish on Beane's record. No one will care if Allen delivers the Bills a SB. Right or wrong McD and Beane's legacy is nearly entirely linked to how Allen plays. Well then, yes. We’re in agreement on that. 2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said: The real test of how good a GM Beane is will come in the next few years when resigning key FA and/or outside FA becomes much more difficult to do given the gig contracts recently handed out, specfically with JA17. So we will find out how good a talent evaluator he truly is since the draft will become our main resource to replenish this team and find legit starters. I still think that Beane and his front office/scouting staff need to reevaluate how they go about building the trenches though and it's still a major blemish that someone didn't see what we had in Wyatt Teller and felt he was expendable especially entering the 2019 season when getting back to the playoffs with a developing QB in this 2nd season was far from a sure thing. What key starters does he need to resign… the big contracts he gave out were given to key starters…? He’s already accomplished that. I agree with the point on the trenches. I think the defensive line with built to beat guys like Mahomes and not smash mouth offenses like the Titans. I’m not sure if it’s possible to build a team that can negate both types of offenses in today’s league. I’d still like some nastier guys tho - particularly on offense. Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 36 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: So the two players Glenn and Watkins. The picks... the one we took him with #7 overall, the two second rounders we used to get up from #11 to #7.... that is 3. Which are the other picks? The picks they need to get from the mid twenties to 11. That was two number ones (Bills original and the KC pick) and Cordy Glenn to Cinci if I remember correctly Quote
Ethan in Cleveland Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, BringBackFlutie said: Is Allen a success? Can you say that!? Probably need to see 2 more years of producing as he is now to definitively say yes unless he wins the SB this year. Guys do have flash moments and then regress. Derek Anderson and a host of other one year wonders. Almost none of those guys have shown the steady progress Allen has made. So the likelihood he regresses terribly is very low in my mind. A single SB win no matter how the rest of his career would pan out would be considered a success. Hell Ferguson was considered a success because they lost in the playoffs due to his injured ankle.... Quote
GunnerBill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: The picks they need to get from the mid twenties to 11. That was two number ones (Bills original and the KC pick) and Cordy Glenn to Cinci if I remember correctly You don't remember correctly. The trade from #21 to #12 was Cordy Glenn, no picks. The trade from #12 to #7 was two 2nds. They kept the KC pick and used that plus 3rd they got for Tyrod to get up to #16 for Tremaine. Edited: it was #12 not #11. Edited October 22, 2021 by GunnerBill Quote
Mango Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 46 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Well then, yes. We’re in agreement on that. What key starters does he need to resign… the big contracts he gave out were given to key starters…? He’s already accomplished that. I agree with the point on the trenches. I think the defensive line with built to beat guys like Mahomes and not smash mouth offenses like the Titans. I’m not sure if it’s possible to build a team that can negate both types of offenses in today’s league. I’d still like some nastier guys tho - particularly on offense. I might be jumping in late to this convo, so forgive me if I am reading this wrong.... We have to decide on Hughes again. He is still our best DE. While some combination of AJE and Basham, may fill that role (Groot is already penciled in), both have been healthy scratches THIS season. Addison is also an RFA next year. We also have to decide on whether or not we want to have a top 5 paid LB corp. Buffalo already has one of the highest paid OL's in the league, so we have to address that one through the draft at the moment we cannot really afford to throw more cash at it. OTC has us at about $11M and Spotrac has us at about $15M for 22. Our cap space is fine, but we need more impact at both lines on draft day. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: You don't remember correctly. The trade from #21 to #12 was Cordy Glenn, no picks. The trade from #12 to #7 was two 2nds. They kept the KC pick and used that plus 3rd they got for Tyrod to get up to #16 for Tremaine. Edited: it was #12 not #11. https://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/2018.htm FWIW this is where I look for old trades. Traded • 2018 first round pick (#12-Vita Vea) • 2018 sixth round pick (#187-Ray-Ray McCloud) to Bills for • Cordy Glenn • 2018 first round pick (#21-Billy Price) • 2018 fifth round pick (#158-Andrew Brown) on 2018-03-14 Quote
GunnerBill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 20 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: https://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/2018.htm FWIW this is where I look for old trades. Traded • 2018 first round pick (#12-Vita Vea) • 2018 sixth round pick (#187-Ray-Ray McCloud) to Bills for • Cordy Glenn • 2018 first round pick (#21-Billy Price) • 2018 fifth round pick (#158-Andrew Brown) on 2018-03-14 Ahh we swapped a 5th for a 6th in the Glenn deal. Forgot that. That still only gets me to 4 picks spent mind you. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Ahh we swapped a 5th for a 6th in the Glenn deal. Forgot that. That still only gets me to 4 picks spent mind you. Yes. You got to scroll down to the 2nd we got for Sammy. Pick was in the 50s I think. Quote
GunnerBill Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 17 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Yes. You got to scroll down to the 2nd we got for Sammy. Pick was in the 50s I think. I have counted that. That is one of the two we gave up to go from #12 to #7. Quote
ColoradoBills Posted October 22, 2021 Posted October 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I have counted that. That is one of the two we gave up to go from #12 to #7. LOL I know. That is why i said it's stupid. They are counting the other picks in the trade that got the 2nd rounder in the Sammy trade. It's stupid. While they are at it why not add the 2,3 or more (LOL) 1st rounders we used to draft Watkins! Quote
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