That was a BAD loss

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

We forget that wins aren't automatic. I'm seeing videos of Bills players dropping by fan parties on Broadway and I'm thinking 'are these guys ready to play?' Same with the fans. This was the inevitable dropoff after being KC.

 

I was concerned about whether the Bills felt they just had to "show up" when I saw the "party mood", but if a team is really ready to "go for the jugular" and win it all, there should be nothing "inevitable" about drop off.

[BillsFanSD]

2 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

7.  Conclusion:  I keep hearing, "we win this 8 or 9 out of 10 times."  Well, interesting, look at our record v. .500 or better teams this year, and the Titans the last two times.  That argument fails. 

 

Dude.  We probably win this game 80% of the time just starting from the 4th and 1 play at the end of the game.  Never mind all the times we replay this game and march into the fourth quarter with a three possession lead.

 

Our offensive line played horribly.  Our defense collapsed down the stretch.  Our offensive playcalling wasn't the best.  And yet we were still in a very good position to win the game at the end.  Elite teams occasionally lose games like this -- nobody goes undefeated.  It's no big deal and it's a wild overreaction to draw overarching conclusions based on a tiny sample of games that you cherry-picked.

 

I've spent the past 20 years watching every Bills game through the lens of "Is this team heading in the right direction for long term success?"  Every loss was a reason to reconsider whether we had the right coach or the right QB.  Every loss was a reason to question whether we made the right selections on draft day.  Every loss was a statement about the culture inside the locker room.

 

Finally, FINALLY we reached a point last season where it became blindingly obvious that we have the right GM, we have the right coach, and we have the right QB.  These guys are going to fixtures of the franchise for the next decade.  They are going to win a boatload of games, and I will be disappointed if a championship or two is not among them.  We have reached a really good spot as a franchise.  That doesn't mean that we won't lose the occasional tough game to a decent opponent.  But it does mean that a loss is just a loss.  It's no big deal.

[Niagara Dude]

2 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

Now, this is not a "cancel the season," "Josh sucks," "fire this person or that person" thread.  What this is, is an acknowledgement that the loss last night was bad, and totally unacceptable for a team that is a super bowl contender.  The Bills are now 1-2 against teams with a record of .500 or greater, in large part due to the issues we saw on display last night.  Elite teams win last night.  The Bills, I think, are elite, they should have won.   More details below, in no particular order!.   Ideas on how to fix the below?  Disagree?  Let's discuss.  

 

1.  Offensive Line:  This was an abysmal performance.  F grade.  The poor OL play was the root cause, IMO, of most of this teams issues last night.  We couldn't get Josh the time needed to hit passes against the WORST deep cover team in the NFL--that was also down to a backup CB and 3rd string CB.  Just totally unacceptable.  We need better pass blocking, either from technique or personnel.    The OL also failed to allow JA, a huge QB, the ability to gain ONE YARD twice.  I can't think of another team where this happens.  The Steelers and Pats** during their dominant years routinely made that play.  D's knew it was coming and couldn't stop it.  Oh, and JAs interception was due to a tipped ball, that's also on the OL as well as the RB who failed to bat the ball down and/or just tackle the guy before he could intercept it.  Fix:  I have no idea for this season other than either find someone at the trade deadline; or stop throwing the ball deep, which I hate to say, and go to more intermediate routes and an occasional deep ball.  

 

2.  DL:  Yes, I get Derrick Henry is a beast.  The DL was okay in controlling him for the most part, but it was totally blown open on Henry's long run, and failed to sack the most sacked QB in the league.  We have no dominate pass rusher AT ALL.  We were also down AJ and Basham, both of whom were inactive.  The Titans also lost Lewan during the game and his replacement I think played like under 20 snaps this year.  Still, no sacks.  Grade: F.  Fix: I think an improvement here comes from rotating the DL more often and including AJ and Basham; or finding someone at the trade deadline.  

 

3.  Secondary:  What, really?  Yeah.  They had 2 good WR's against them, but when they had to stop 3rd and longs they seemed to be routinely beat.  This is not something an elite secondary does.  Fix:  I think it's just an off day.  I'm not too concerned here, but it was a subpar performance last night.  

 

4.  Coaching:  This is a mixed bag.  I loved the aggressive going for it on 4th and 1.  As noted above, good/decent OLs provide space for that play.  Our defense was abysmal all night.   The issues I have here are those noted above: (1) why was AJ and Basham inactive; (2) why was Milano in over Klien, who can pressure a QB on 3rd and long and is likely better against Henry; (3) why can't Daboll (I know his Grandfather who raised him died, and I feel awful picking on him, but this was a season long issue here) figure out the red zone offense?   And Frazier is just, really, outmatched again.  At some point you need to mix up what you are doing and send pressure and stop being so freaking predictable.  Finally, the most maddening thing from coaching last night is you have 2-3 all-pro WRs, against a backup and 3rd string cornerback, and you don't attack them all game with passes at all levels of the field.  Stop taking the deep shots against them all the time.  Drive it down 5-15 yards at a time.  Tire them out, esp. with the OL incapable of blocking anyone.  Fix:  McD has changed his style from ultra-conservative to more aggressive, and overall it's worked.  The OC and DC have MAJOR issues they need to work on, and if not fixed, perhaps replacements need to come in during the offseason.  We are wasting elite QB and WR talent here, and the OL, while not great personnel wise, had a total clunker.  

 

5.  Josh:  ha, had to put this in here.  He was good last night.  Not the reason we lost.  Yeah, he missed seeing some open WR's, but he was also trying to avoid getting sacked and taking a negative play.  His one interception was courtesy of the OL letting a DL tip the pass.  Fix:  I guess more awareness to look down the field when running for your life?  Also, don't trust your OL.  I know you love them, but if you have to QB sneak again, do NOT go to the left.  Audible out of it.  

 

6.  RB play.  Are running backs are backup level.  No DC is like, "oh, Singletary and/or Moss, how do we plan to stop them."  Here is how you stop them, catch them from behind if they rip off a 5 yard run.  They also can't catch, and on JA's interception, the RB needed to play CB, heck, tackle the guy before he catches it and take an offensive PI, better than a turnover.  Fix:  trade at trade deadline, use Bredia.  

 

7.  Conclusion:  I keep hearing, "we win this 8 or 9 out of 10 times."  Well, interesting, look at our record v. .500 or better teams this year, and the Titans the last two times.  That argument fails.  These above issues are fixable, but we need to stop playing poorly when it matters.  We get out played and out coached on the coordinator level.  It was simply a BAD loss.  When you have a top QB and WR combos and can't exploit backup CB's, it's terrible.  When you have the most sacked QB in the NFL and don't get a single sack, it's terrible.  When you can't convert 2 4th and 1's, it's terrible.  There are fixes, lets hope they happen. 

 

 

 

 

RB'S were a problem last season and i see very little improvement so far.  I thought we killed chances to score TD'S in the red zone by handing off to either Moss or Singeltary on second downs.  I would consider going after RB Mack from the Colts who is available and Chiefs are also interested in him because of his big play ability.  If Beanne is serious about winning it all , he needs to go after Mack and maybe see if he can pry Flecther Cox in Philly who is a play making DT.  Both dudes would adding more play making on both sides of the ball

 

 

Losing shines light on problems ,  last year i suggested we trade for JJ Watt and people on this site said he was washed up.  Looked great against the Browns and Cox from Philly could be the same big play maker we seem to be on the defensive side of the ball.  Both Hughes and Addison seemed done,  when was the last time Hughes made a big play?

 

I would also bring in some punters because the dude we have looks terrible and costs us field position with average distance punting. 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Niagara Dude

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

 

we should have won both games, we didn't.  Elite teams win those games.  There are some systemic issues I'm seeing.  That's what I'm pointing out.  Any thoughts on how to fix the following: (1) OL blocking; (2) shotty red zone play?  (3) bad DL play.  I'm not saying I have the answers, but against two really bad OLs (PGH and Tenn) we disappeared.  

 

 

 

There are issues and I agree with a lot of your original post but saying elite or super bowl teams don't lose last night is wrong.  Super bowl teams do lose games.  Otherwise Miami wouldn't have that age old ass record of an undefeated season.  

 

We made it to the AFCCG last year and just beat the Super Bowl team that knocked us out.  Titans were just more physical than us last night.  A win would have been nice.  A loss sucks.  The Bills were a couple plays away against a very good team.  That doesn't mean the Bills aren't a super bowl team.

 

This team does need to get better on the fronts though.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Scott7975

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Seoulofstone said:

So, what's a good loss?

 

1 They gave up 3 sacks. Our rookie playing only his 2nd start gave up a tough sack to a veteran player. You're spoiled if you think they were abysmal.

 

2 Agree that the DL had a bad day. Agree that one or both of Boogie AJ should have played. I think Jerry H is getting a bit of a free pass for past achievements.

 

3 secondary were excellent. You cross because the ball bounced off a helmet in a fluke or because of AJ Browns short crossers? That's not why they lost. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

 4 I didn't see the coaching as an issue last night.

 

 5 Hard to blame Josh. His interception was caused by the pressure and Moss didn't react to help out. He scored 3TDs and threw for 350. Limp finish but it was one of those nights.

 

6 These Rbs are not special. They're merely made to look good in a great O. This isn't news to me.

 

7 That's an idiotic thing that fans say when they are buthurt at a loss. No basis in fact but you can read it on most fan forums  Lame. Take the loss it's only a game. Titans played better. Good for them.

1) Josh's ability to avoid pressure makes this line look better than it is. The interior of this line is bad and I think it begins with Mitch Morse. They have problems with good IDL. You even mention this on Josh's INT in point #5.

2) I'd focus more on Mario Addison than Jerry Hughes

3) Levi always has problems with physical, fast WRs. He's simply not strong enough to battle them an entire game.

4,5) Agree

6) Not special, but would rather see more Moss than Motor. Breece Hall in rd 2??

7) Titans didn't play better, just more physical. We lost by not converting 4th and short. Lineman got blown up    

[FilthyBeast]

I had a gut feeling the Bills would lose this game and have a let down after last week, but agree that it's still a bad loss for a number of reasons most notably tie breakers and overall seeding in the AFC come playoff time.

 

And while I don't think the head to head tie breaker matters against the Titans just like last year when they ultimately finished behind the Bills in playoff seeding, it's another conference loss that might kill the Bills in a very loaded AFC.

 

Any chance this team has to make the SB is getting homefield throughout and that's going to be hard this year despite the alleged favorable schedule the rest of the way compared to other teams.

[Greg S]

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

I had a gut feeling the Bills would lose this game and have a let down after last week, but agree that it's still a bad loss for a number of reasons most notably tie breakers and overall seeding in the AFC come playoff time.

 

And while I don't think the head to head tie breaker matters against the Titans just like last year when they ultimately finished behind the Bills in playoff seeding, it's another conference loss that might kill the Bills in a very loaded AFC.

 

Any chance this team has to make the SB is getting homefield throughout and that's going to be hard this year despite the alleged favorable schedule the rest of the way compared to other teams.

 

The only team I would hate to see the Bills play a playoff road game against is the Ravens. Any other opponent I think the Bills would have a good shot to win. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and the Bills can get homefield for the playoffs.

[BigDingus]

On the bright side, the Bills have enough credit in the bank now that the media is generally giving us a pass lol

 

I thought I wouldn't be able to watch or listen to sports talk this week, but damn near everyone is giving us a pass & saying we're still the top team in the AFC (though some would argue Baltimore deserves that nod). 

 

Just hoping we can prove that to be true & go on a tear, starting with Miami in 2 weeks. The biggest issue I have with the game is how it could affect home field advantage, but it's still too early to tell.

 

Then again, I still feel weird looking forward to playoffs at all... It wasn't that long ago guys 🤣

Edited October 19, 2021 by BigDingus

[PromoTheRobot]

51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I was concerned about whether the Bills felt they just had to "show up" when I saw the "party mood", but if a team is really ready to "go for the jugular" and win it all, there should be nothing "inevitable" about drop off.

They are human. Humans are imperfect and inconsistent.

28 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

On the bright side, the Bills have enough credit in the bank now that the media is generally giving us a pass lol

 

I thought I wouldn't be able to watch or listen to sports talk this week, but damn near everyone is giving us a pass & saying we're still the top team in the AFC (though some would argue Baltimore deserves that nod). 

 

Just hoping we can prove that to be true & go on a tear, starting with Miami in 2 weeks. The biggest issue I have with the game is how it could affect home field advantage, but it's still too early to tell.

 

Then again, I still feel weird looking forward to playoffs at all... It wasn't that long ago guys 🤣

 

It wasn't a blowout loss. It came down to the final play. Unless you are Nick Wright, how can you bash a team for a game like that?

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Seoulofstone said:

So, what's a good loss?

 

1 They gave up 3 sacks. Our rookie playing only his 2nd start gave up a tough sack to a veteran player. You're spoiled if you think they were abysmal.

 

2 Agree that the DL had a bad day. Agree that one or both of Boogie AJ should have played. I think Jerry H is getting a bit of a free pass for past achievements.

 

3 secondary were excellent. You cross because the ball bounced off a helmet in a fluke or because of AJ Browns short crossers? That's not why they lost. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

 4 I didn't see the coaching as an issue last night.

 

 5 Hard to blame Josh. His interception was caused by the pressure and Moss didn't react to help out. He scored 3TDs and threw for 350. Limp finish but it was one of those nights.

 

6 These Rbs are not special. They're merely made to look good in a great O. This isn't news to me.

 

7 That's an idiotic thing that fans say when they are buthurt at a loss. No basis in fact but you can read it on most fan forums  Lame. Take the loss it's only a game. Titans played better. Good for them.

Hughes was the only good pass rusher last night. And was it just me who saw the blatant hold on the first TN series of the game near the goal line that allowed Tannehill to get the ball off?

35 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

The only team I would hate to see the Bills play a playoff road game against is the Ravens. Any other opponent I think the Bills would have a good shot to win. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and the Bills can get homefield for the playoffs.

I fear the Ravens will end up with a better record given their respective schedules.

43 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

I had a gut feeling the Bills would lose this game and have a let down after last week, but agree that it's still a bad loss for a number of reasons most notably tie breakers and overall seeding in the AFC come playoff time.

 

And while I don't think the head to head tie breaker matters against the Titans just like last year when they ultimately finished behind the Bills in playoff seeding, it's another conference loss that might kill the Bills in a very loaded AFC.

 

Any chance this team has to make the SB is getting homefield throughout and that's going to be hard this year despite the alleged favorable schedule the rest of the way compared to other teams.

The NFC is more top-heavy with excellent teams than the AFC. The only teams in the AFC vying for elite status are Baltimore, Buffalo, KC, and to a lesser extent TN. The rest have too many flaws.

[Greg S]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Hughes was the only good pass rusher last night. And was it just me who saw the blatant hold on the first TN series of the game near the goal line that allowed Tannehill to get the ball off?

I fear the Ravens will end up with a better record given their respective schedules.

The NFC is more top-heavy with excellent teams than the AFC. The only teams in the AFC vying for elite status are Baltimore, Buffalo, KC, and to a lesser extent TN. The rest have too many flaws.

 

I don't know about KC with that defense. The Chargers have a bad defense as well but I see them winning the division reducing KC to a WC. 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Greg S said:

 

I don't know about KC with that defense. The Chargers have a bad defense as well but I see them winning the division reducing KC to a WC. 

I just think that Andy Reid is a great coach and they'll sort the turnover issue out. Offensive turnovers are why they lost two games. They aren't a turnover-prone team generally speaking. I also think Mahomes is the best QB in the league.

[Nuncha]

Last years "bad loss" led to 8 wins in a row.  Hopefully something like that happens again this year.

[Boatdrinks]

It sure was. It’s going to hurt come playoff time, I’m afraid. The AFCS winner is almost certainly going to be the Titans. The Bills are not the best team in football, that’s clear right now. I can see them having 5 losses and being the 3 or 4 seed. 

[Chicken Boo]

This was a necessary loss.

[Billzfan37]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

What were people saying last year when we beat a bunch of teams above .500? Pretty sure we had the best record against teams .500 or better? The same crap.

 

The teams needed to tighten things up… they gave up some opportunities… they’re capable of beating good teams and have crushed bad teams. They did the same thing last year. They got over their boogeyman in the Chiefs and lost a heartbreaker on the road against a good team. 
 

The Titans needed everything to break right for them last night and it did. 76 TD run (that didn’t get called back for a hold), Circus Julio Jones catch (yeah I know it was PI), tipped pick. We gave them some opportunities and they took advantage. It happens. 

Also, you’re misdefining pressure… the Bills had one of the highest pressure rates and have been consistently pressuring opposing QBs all year… it’s just a matter of whether they get a sack or not. You’re conflating the word sack and pressure. And don’t you think getting the ball out quick, an active AJ Brown and Julio Jones and the extra focus on Derrick Henry makes it a little more difficult to sack Tannehill? 
 

 

The issue was that we had a 100 yard kick return called back because of Andre Smith (who had 2 bad penalties).  There's 7 right there.  We also have to stop kicking 24 and 28 yard field goals.  You go for it there, and if you're 50% on converting those to TD's you're still a point ahead of taking two field goals.

 

Last, we had AJ Epineza and Boogie Basham inactive.  Why?  WTF do we have FOUR backup linebackers in Metakavich, Dodson, Klein, and Smith ACTIVE - and two young stud pass rushers inactive when all those junk LB's do is special teams.  This game was lost earlier in the week when they decided who to play and who to sit.  I get that we need special teams studs, but most of that game is fair catches and touchbacks now - we could have brought pressure from guys that know how to get pressure.  Addison is soft and played way too many snaps.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Billzfan37

[YattaOkasan]

3 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

7.  Conclusion:  I keep hearing, "we win this 8 or 9 out of 10 times."  Well, interesting, look at our record v. .500 or better teams this year, and the Titans the last two times.  That argument fails.  These above issues are fixable, but we need to stop playing poorly when it matters.  

 

This is why people think you are overreacting.  I thought what matters was January.  IMO we really havent hit any it matters times.  Do you really think its critical to win these games (as in we wont make the playoffs or were going to lose the division?).  If not then we get into the dance and thats when it matters.  From that perspective this team has shown it can play well when it matters MOST.  

3 hours ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

I've said it a million times, Levi cannot play man coverage. It reminds me of when we would play NRC against Gronk. Levi is too undersized to match up with these bigger receivers. 

Did you miss last game when Levi played man a lot?  Was really happy to see cover 2 man so much last game.  Tremaine is a beast against RBs in man coverage.  Now if youre saying his below average on island without help then I agree.  but thats not our scheme like ever so.... its not really that relevant.

[BigDingus]

46 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

They are human. Humans are imperfect and inconsistent.

 

It wasn't a blowout loss. It came down to the final play. Unless you are Nick Wright, how can you bash a team for a game like that?

 

I 100% agree.

 

I only bring up the credit we've earned in that any other time, we'd have still dropped down the ladder pretty far. Instead, for example, ESPN had us drop from #1 to #2, meanwhile the Ravens dominate the 4-1 Chargers who everyone was labelling a contender, and they only jumped from #8 to #6.

 

The excuses about the Titans injury-plagued roster, depleted secondary, awful pass protection & having just lost to the Jets would normally have a team be questioned way more. Traditional favorites like the Cowboys, Patriots, Chiefs, Steelers, etc. get the pass, no us. It's something Bills fans would lament, talk crap about the bias, and call out as small market hate. 

 

But I think this proves the Bills are one of those teams that is going to get the benefit of the doubt now. We're going to often be the team that gets talked about in a loss 10 times more than the team that won. If the Bills lose, the story will often be about how they "beat themselves" or did something wrong, not what the other team did well. It's a weird feeling, but the Bills earned it.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

If Josh had converted the sneak, would you have posted the same thread saying it was a bad win?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

If Josh had converted the sneak, would you have posted the same thread saying it was a bad win?

 

Of course we would. Look at all the angst after beating Miami 35-0?