Should NFL refs start being suspended for idiotic calls?

[First Round Bust]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

First, I used to complain about the part-time ref thing, but as I understand it, the NFL has changed that.   A few years ago they introduced full-time refs, and I saw something a year ago that said that the program was enthusiastically adopted by the officials.  The NFL's objective was to have at least one full-time official per crew, and I think they've ended up with a significant number (maybe approaching half) being full-timers.   I'm sure the NFL grades the refs, and I'm sure their assignments, even their ability to keep their job, depends somewhat on their grades.   I don't think NFL officials get tenure. 

 

I'd hope they also have conditioning requirements.  I think they must - we used to see guys waddling around out there, but not so much any more.   They seem to run with the plays pretty well - obviously, they aren't going to be as fast as wide receivers, but they generally are in position to make calls and to get out of the way of plays.   

 

That's all on the good side. 

 

I officiated soccer for a few years, even though I'd never played, and you're correct that knowledge of the game is critical.  I was often out of position, even with 12 year-olds, I didn't see things very well, and I missed a lot of calls.   I didn't understand, at least not well, what was going on - the players saw th,e game better than I did.   

 

However, I think that having-played-the-game thing becomes less important the longer you officiate.   If you watch the NBA, those officials are not former NBA players, nor even college players.   But they've officiated games for years and years, they've worked their way up from town leagues to high school to AAU to D-III to D-I to the pros.   When they get to the NBA and are there for a few years, they do remarkably well watching and controlling the game.   It's impossible to get those calls right all the time, but they really do pretty well.  I think the NFL officials are the same.   In a game where they can't call everything, and a game where it's impossible to see everything, they do pretty well.   I'm amazed, for example, how good they are at spotting the ball.   Most of the time when I think they got it wrong, replay shows they got it right.  

 

I don't think the problem is the quality of the officials.   I think the problem is that the NFL refuses to use technology to increase the percentage of calls made correctly.   Tennis has more or less instantaneous in-or-out replays.  Baseball has (but doesn't use) very accurate ball-strike calling mechanisms.   Football is tougher, but please - there's no reason why they don't have a chip in the ball so that on replay they can locate the ball precisely in a pile of players at the goal line, or so they can tell whether the ball passed inside or outside the pylon.   

 

And to Beast's point, there's no reason they can't use replay quickly and efficiently to correct clearly bad calls on 15-yard penalties.  They don't have to review missed calls - maybe there was a facemask an official missed and it shows up on replay.  Okay, let it go.  But when they call the facemask penalty, while it's being assessed and marked off, a replay official would have time to look at it and be sure it actually happened.   Same thing for offensive holding and roughing the passer.  The calls are right or at least arguable 90+% of the time; why can't they fix the ones that were obviously wrong?

the refs have a union, and senority-tenure is always a consideration with unions...second,  fix ones that are wrong...mostly because you cannot  for the most part challenge judgement calls, baseball limits reviews to fair-foul, safe-out, and it is extremely limited and most plays are balls-strikes to its a mere fraction of plays that can be reviewed; the chip placement in the ball is good but very futuristic, I cant see the old guard of the current NFL owners group wrapping their meeting time around that anytime soon when billions are at stake in TV revenue and CBA-NFLPA priorities, look how long it took them to implement and improve "instant" replays; plus all this cannot be considered without consent of the refs union based on job security and credibility not to mention the NFLPA ??? 

[Buffalo Junction]

3 minutes ago, First Round Bust said:

the refs have a union, and senority-tenure is always a consideration with unions...second,  fix ones that are wrong...mostly because you cannot  for the most part challenge judgement calls, baseball limits reviews to fair-foul, safe-out, and it is extremely limited and most plays are balls-strikes to its a mere fraction of plays that can be reviewed; the chip placement in the ball is good but very futuristic, I cant see the old guard of the current NFL owners group wrapping their meeting time around that anytime soon when billions are at stake in TV revenue and CBA-NFLPA priorities, look how long it took them to implement and improve "instant" replays; plus all this cannot be considered without consent of the refs union based on job security and credibility not to mention the NFLPA ??? 

There are potentially billions in gambling revenue at stake. If that is put into contention then the owners will be forced to consider options for improvement. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Buffalo Junction

[LABILLBACKER]

Cheffers and his whole crew should be bagging groceries. They'll never do anything. The NFL controls everything. It's a waste of time and a good ole boy club. Angel Hernandez and Cowboy Joe (MLB) should've been fired years ago. 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, section122 said:

tl;dr it is an incredibly difficult job to do and expecting perfection is to forget that it is performed by human beings.  I don't disagree that it sucks when they get it wrong or blow a call but they are only human.

That's where I'm at with it.  On top of a massive rule book and calls with extreme subjectivity, you also have the competition committee changing the rules or advising on how things need to be called differently every year.

 

These guys may suck as all fans seem to agree and yet they're the best in the world at officiating football games.

[section122]

6 minutes ago, Dan said:

Excellent post and all very true.  But, IMO, this all just means the league needs to simplify the rules/penalties, not add to them every year...especially with more subjective calls.  
 

There’s lots of ways they could improve the accuracy and efficiency of refereeing a game. More refs,  Simpler rules, Microchips in the ball, are just but a few examples.  The problem is the league is reluctant to do anything of substance other than further complicate things and send out memos... after a crew screws up badly.  
 

There’s literally Billions of dollars at stake each week.  And they can’t do anything to make it more fair?   Or they don’t want to?  I think that’s where most people are.. they’re fine with penalties..even bad ones. But make it fair.  And far too often the calls seem to drive a specific narrative... either for betting or for ratings. 
 

 

 

I agree very much with your post.

 

The bolded though is what I was addressing with the fact that people are viewing this subjectively not objectively.  What is a good success rate?  

 

If refs got 99% of calls right, that still leaves 1% of calls being made erroneously each week.  A quick google says between 134 and 168 plays per game.  So 2144 to 2688 calls per week on average.  That means at a 99% success rate there would still be 21 to 26 blown calls per week.

 

This could range anywhere from simple human error to something much more nefarious.  I think the good teams are able to overcome a blown call easier than bad teams and that also spins a narrative. 

 

During the drought it felt like there were always well timed penalties against the Bills when playing the Pats and then a bunch of makeup calls after the game was in control for NE to make it look even.  Was that true or a fan opinion?  I watched the Buff/KC game with a Cowboys fan last week and he commented before I did about how it appeared they were trying to keep KC in the game with bad calls.  The difference was that it didn't bother the Bills and they still cruised to victory.  Instead you have KC fans complaining about the Clark call which by definition imo was made correctly.  We didn't have to have a 50+ page thread about the terrible holding call the play preceding it.

 

Again I think it sucks that it happens and especially when it happens to the Bills but it almost has to be expected when humans are involved.  Please don't let this post be a jinx for tonight lol.

[LabattBlue]

What does anyone expect from full-time officials that they aren't getting right now.  They will still be officiating the same number of games, and reviewing the previous weeks game.  People just need to accept that human error will always be a part of football and all sports.

 

The NHL has full-time officials.  MLB has full-time umpires.  Guess what?  They still make mistakes.

Edited October 18, 2021 by BTB

[WhoTom]

1 hour ago, section122 said:

tl;dr it is an incredibly difficult job to do and expecting perfection is to forget that it is performed by human beings.  I don't disagree that it sucks when they get it wrong or blow a call but they are only human.

 

I agree, but that's all the more reason to use technology, including replay, to get the calls right. Given what you wrote, there's no reason for the officials to be ashamed when the replay shows that they blew a call, so they should be willing to overturn those calls without losing face. When presented with evidence, it's better to admit having been wrong than to double-down on a mistake. The league needs to make that clear, otherwise the replay process will continue to be, to a certain extent, a joke.

 

 

[Turk71]

8 hours ago, pigpen65 said:

Refs are overly involved by design. Rules are left ambiguous by design. It's not a coincidence how many primetime games end up being decided by last second field goals or go into OT. The NFL classifies itself as an entertainment entity, the same as the WWE does. The refs are doing what the leagues wants the refs to do which is to manage the games. The Chiefs / Bills would have been a blowout by the middle of the 2nd quarter had the refs not managed it. Anybody deluding themselves into thinking any of this is isn't by design is a fool.

 I remember reading that the NFL actually used the 'we are just entertainment' defense in a court of law, so that is their stated position. The fact that people wager billions of dollars a year on a sport that the league asserts a right to script is just mind boggling. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Turk71

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

 

 

If refs got 99% of calls right, that still leaves 1% of calls being made erroneously each week.  A quick google says between 134 and 168 plays per game.  So 2144 to 2688 calls per week on average.  That means at a 99% success rate there would still be 21 to 26 blown calls per week.

 

I like this analysis.   It's probably in the right order of magnitude.   So, you have one or two blown calls per game.   That's probably a little low, but it's not crazy.   Carry it out a little further.   That's one or two blown calls per game.   Most blown calls don't change the outcome of the game.   Only a few do, maybe one out of 50, or one out of 100.   If that's correct, that means that once every two, three, four weeks, a blown call will change, or at least appear to change, the outcome of the game.   That, too sounds about right; every month or so we see something in some game that makes us say some team got screwed.  

 

The problem is that we aren't talking about a 162-game baseball season or even an 82-game (or whatever) basketball season.  This is 17 games, and one game easily can be the difference between the playoffs or not.   Cutting the number of blown calls in half or better would be worth it.  

[frostbitmic]

I tend to find that NCAA officials are far superior to NFL officials.

 

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I just don't have a dog in the fight of a college game other than rooting for Roll Tide to get a flat and lose, but even when watching a game between say the Giants and the Eagles, I just see bad call after bad call.

 

 

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

I tend to find that NCAA officials are far superior to NFL officials.

 

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I just don't have a dog in the fight of a college game other than rooting for Roll Tide to get a flat and lose, but even when watching a game between say the Giants and the Eagles, I just see bad call after bad call.

 

 

Agree, they make mistakes and bad calls, but they never seem to take over the game in the way NFL officials frequently do. 

[Billsatlastin2018]

I went on a rampage and emailed Schopp at WGR on this subject- almost 20 years ago!

 

Among other ideas...

 

1) Full time wages- no more Part Time Used Car Salesmen.

2) Hires only, from ex Division 1A Football Players who didn’t get drafted and have a superb knowledge of the existing rules.

3) Must be in superb physical shape, with 20-20 vision, and a Wonderlic > 27. Fat, slow, blind and stupid are out- immediately!
As in the entire existing NFL cadre needs to be sacked immediately! 
4) Refs, Line Judges etc. are Graded every week. Any highly stupid call or NON call of the blatantly obvious? Out you go! Any flagrant miss of spotting the ball? Out you go!

5) Digital Electronic marking of the entire field and End Zone to assist any Out of Bounds calls!

 

 

 

 

[Beast]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Beast -

 

I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know where this discussion went after the first page, but I wanted to throw in my two cents. 

 

First, as to fines or suspensions, I don't think so.  Everyone makes mistakes.  These guys are carefully evaluated, and their job performance is measured.  The NFL should be doing everything a good manager does to minimize mistakes, to train people, and to get people out of the job if they aren't meeting minimum performance requirements.  

 

Should there be a rational review process?  By all means.  The NFL is still in the dark ages about reviews.   A call like the one you're talking about can have substantial consequences for the outcome of the game, and anyone watching it, including someone with authority to overturn it, could see that this control was wrong.   The NCAA has shown for years that their review process works better and doesn't disrupt the game.   I don't think the NCAA reviews penalties, but the point is that any reviews can be done quickly.   There's no reason why the NFL reviewer couldn't signal the ref to hold up the game so that the reviewer could take a quick look at the play and tell the ref it was no penalty. 

 

I get that they're trying to protect the QBs, and that's a good thing.   But 15 yards and a first down at a critical point in the game can affect the season's outcome for both teams.  That's a ridiculously drastic measure to say to one player "we don't want you even touching the QB."   The NFL deals with that problem in a different way, anyway.  There have been plenty of examples where whether or not the penalty has been called in the game, afterward the league assessed a significant fine.   That gets the message out effectively without upsetting the competitive balance of the games. 

 

The league definitely should be worried about the appearance that they are trying to affect the outcomes.  Watching the Steelers and Seahawks last night, when the word came down that the second last play in regulation was being reviewed (whether Metcalf had made the catch or not), my very first thought was that the officiating was giving an enormous competitive advantage to the Seahawks.   It was completely obvious that Metcalf caught the ball - ridiculously obvious, so what was there to review.  There also was no turnover, so there shouldn't have been an automatic review.   All the review did was give Seattle multiple minutes on the sideline to get ready to spike the ball and then kick the field goal to tie it, instead of having to rush first to get the clock stopped, which they did, and then have to run their kicking onto the field and kick it.   But at least the NFL review people were watching, had a question, and took the time to get it right.  Why they can't do that on the bogus roughing the passer calls, I don't understand. 

 

And on the other issue people keep raising from last Sunday night, a couple of comments.   If the referee named the right player when they assessed holding against Morse, then THAT play is another argument for quick reviews, because we all saw the replay and there was nothing at all that came close to warranting a call.   And if people thought the subsequent roughing the passer call was a makeup call, I didn't.   It was by no means a bogus call.  I think it was completely consistent with the way the rules are written, and if not completely, then arguably.  Frank whatever, 55, picked up Allen (you could tell because Allen's legs were flailing in the air), and whether he threw Allen to the ground or not, he definitely landed on top of him without trying to break his fall or protect Allen in any other way.  That kind of play was made a personal foul a few years ago, it was called consistently the first couple of years, and players stopped doing it.   It wasn't a makeup call.  

 

Good post, Shaw. I made the thread title off the emotion of what I was feeling but took the topic in a different direction with what I really wanted to express.

 

The NFL needs to get off their dead ass and fix this problem before they have another New Orleans Saints issue on their hands.

 

Having replay for these calls should be mandatory and shouldn't take long to make a decision from abobe. Enough is enough with this crap.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Beast

[machine gun kelly]

Supposedly the crew of refs are evaluated each week on a regular basis and graded.  IDK the particulars, but they have judges evaluating them just like our managers, bosses evaluate us.

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

Good post, Shaw. I made the thread title off the emotion of what I was feeling but took the topic in a different direction with what I really wanted to express.

 

The NFL needs to get off their dead ass and fix this problem before they have another New Orleans Saints issue on their hands.

 

Having replay for these calls should be mandatory and shouldn't take long to make a decision from abobe. Enough is enough with this crap.

 

I'll say it again - the NCAA reviews stuff quickly and efficiently.  New Orleans was a travesty that was completely preventable.   

 

As big-time gambling becomes a realty instead of backroom problem, the league cannot afford the appearance that the occasional bad call presents.  I noticed, for example, that as the Cowboys-Pats game was winding down, Joe Buck made a veiled reference to the point spread.   I didn't look it up, but I'm guessing the spread was or 8.  The Cowboys were winning by 6.  If their final drive stalled, they'd kick the field goal and put the game out of reach, but if they kept getting first downs, they'd run out the clock.  The clear implication of what Buck said was that although the outcome looked to be clear, a lot of people cared about that field goal, which would change the betting outcome.   If they're talking about the spread on national broadcasts, it's a clear sign of the growing importance of betting on these games.      

[Turk71]

42 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

I agree, but that's all the more reason to use technology, including replay, to get the calls right. Given what you wrote, there's no reason for the officials to be ashamed when the replay shows that they blew a call, so they should be willing to overturn those calls without losing face. When presented with evidence, it's better to admit having been wrong than to double-down on a mistake. The league needs to make that clear, otherwise the replay process will continue to be, to a certain extent, a joke.

 

 

The technology has been there for some time now and would be relatively inexpensive to implement. 

 Not to be overly cynical, but maybe the league likes having more influence in determining outcomes for maximum revenue? (entertainment value$$$)

(Tim Donaghy stated they were told by the NBA the stars to give preferential treatment to. He also said he is hardly the only problem gambler in debt to the mob who was influencing games.)

  Otherwise I can't see any reason why they would delay making the game more transparent and fair.

[WhoTom]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'll say it again - the NCAA reviews stuff quickly and efficiently. 

 

For those of us who don't follow college football, what do they do differently than the NFL?

 

[Beerball]

9 hours ago, Jobot said:

There should be some sort of performance review, no doubt. Apparently these guys average $200k per game.

Ummmm, no.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears/heres-how-much-money-nfl-officials-make-working-games

[Mr. WEO]

YES!!!!!  Sit them down and replace them with Refs who do not make bad calls!!

 

Boom!...fixed.

 

lol this

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, frostbitmic said:

I tend to find that NCAA officials are far superior to NFL officials.

 

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I just don't have a dog in the fight of a college game other than rooting for Roll Tide to get a flat and lose, but even when watching a game between say the Giants and the Eagles, I just see bad call after bad call.

 

 

Watched a college game this year where they got the downs wrong, were asked about it, and doubled down on the wrong answer. The next time an NFL crew makes someone punt on what should be 3rd down let me know.