Question: what is a pick? Also Cover1 all-22 review of Bills D

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

This is how refs miss the call:

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Rubes said:

I have no idea what a pick is in this league, but I thought that as long as the receiver (eg, Kelce) doesn’t actively engage the defender that he’s trying to pick, then it’s not a pick.

 

 

So I found this:

 

From the official 2013 NFL rulebook (page 51)

A "pick-play" is essentially offensive pass interference, the following clarification gets at the heart of the matter.

Rule 8, Section 5, Article 2 (Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble)

Prohibited Acts by both teams while the ball is in the air. Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

(e) cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.

Seems simple enough right? The important wording in this portion of the pass interference rule is "making contact with him."

 

I don't see anything about "actively engage" there.  But I rewatched all 3 similar plays, and I think it's just a well-designed play to allow Kelce to legally "pick" the defender on the outside receiver just by running his route against his defender, while the outside WR runs a route along the LOS or 1 yd deep.  If his defender gets all up in his laundry, well then it's obviously not Kelce's fault that his ass is in the way.  If the defender isn't trying to jam him off the line, he can just release slowly, it's not on the ref to judge his speed off the line.  It's effectively a pick play, but because Kelsey is just doing his thing running his own route, it would never get called.

[BuffaloBill]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So good breakdown, Cover1 gets a little fanboy about the Bills D but overall shows how Frazier crafted a solid gameplan and the players did a great job of communicating and sharing responsibilities to minimize the grey areas between zones that Mahomes exploited so well in the AFCCG.  Belt and suspenders belt and suspenders, backing each other up on almost every play all evening long.

 

To me, brings up a question though: what is a pick play?  If you go to about 18:30, clearest example of a play KC runs at least 3x.

 

White is covering Hill (actually on this play, it's #17 Blake Bell), who is off the LOS to the bottom of the screen.  Kelce is inside.  On the snap, Kelce slows his release so that his big ass is right in Whites way as he tries to follow his guy on a shallow crosser.

 

I'm not sure I understand how a pick play is defined.  Isn't that a pick?  Cover1 doesn't say anything about it.

 

Effectively, it seems like a pick in that in having to avoid Kelce's big ass, White is separated from the guy he's covering.  The first time the Chiefs did it, it worked for a first down and more.  The second time the Bills had Hyde drop in to help and he was in perfect position to make the tackle short of the sticks - as it happened, Hill deflected the pass and Hyde picked it for a TD so HA serves you right.

 

 

 

 

You watch that and you realize how much of a team game the Bills play. Also shows why Edmunds is well liked by the coaching staff.  Excellent game plan and execution on the part of the Bills.

[Rubes]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So I found this:

 

From the official 2013 NFL rulebook (page 51)

A "pick-play" is essentially offensive pass interference, the following clarification gets at the heart of the matter.

Rule 8, Section 5, Article 2 (Forward Pass, Backward Pass, Fumble)

Prohibited Acts by both teams while the ball is in the air. Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

(e) cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball.

Seems simple enough right? The important wording in this portion of the pass interference rule is "making contact with him."

 

I don't see anything about "actively engage" there.  But I rewatched all 3 similar plays, and I think it's just a well-designed play to allow Kelce to legally "pick" the defender on the outside receiver just by running his route against his defender, while the outside WR runs a route along the LOS or 1 yd deep.  If his defender gets all up in his laundry, well then it's obviously not Kelce's fault that his ass is in the way.  If the defender isn't trying to jam him off the line, he can just release slowly, it's not on the ref to judge his speed off the line.  It's effectively a pick play, but because Kelsey is just doing his thing running his own route, it would never get called.

 

Yeah, I just made up the "actively engage" thing, but I guess what I meant by that is basically "blocking". In other words, engaging the defender in a block rather than just running a route or going for the ball. The ones I've seen called seem to be receivers whose interference with the defender looks intentional, like a block, rather than completely unintentional, like an "innocent" collision.

 

So my guess is that it's all how good an actor the receiver is.

 

[Doc]

IMHO if an offensive player gets in the way of a defensive player without making contact, it's fine.  

[WideNine]

8 hours ago, eball said:

 

Very dangerous strategy.  If the pick isn’t called you’ve let a guy get wide open for probably a huge play.

 

 

Yeah, does not come without risks - we had Gronk completely wipe out DBs covering Edelman (which is why he was so often open on those crossers underneath), and no flag and lots of yards. So obvious or not it is a risk to have your coverage guy not try to avoid the traffic cone.

 

Better perhaps to use a Steelers Palms/2-Read coverage kind of technique rather than a defender assigned to a specific player...

 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To me, brings up a question though: what is a pick play?  If you go to about 18:30, clearest example of a play KC runs at least 3x.

 

 

 

 

Great example for discussion.

 

On that play at 18:30, Kelce never even turns his head towards White. He comes off the line, makes a stutter step that looks like part of his route but also which slows him down enough to stand in White's way, White is the one who runs into Kelce, and Kelce barely engages White and heads upfield in a continuation of his route.

That is about as well as you can run that play from Kelce's perspective. He kept it as a "rub" and not a pick.

 

Now, even if this wasn't within 5 yards of LOS, he would probably still get away with it since he never went at White, nor made any real contact. They just happened to cross paths. And White is actually the one to contact Kelce.

 

Now had he turned even his helmet toward White and bumped him, stuck an arm out, lowered a shoulder... it might be a different story.

 

But it is definitely a tough call in real time for the refs, and very subjective. They will likely make the wrong call more often than the right call. But what else is new.

Edited October 14, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[Tuco]

Everything pointed out in this video was made possible because we were able to get decent (not always great, but adequate) pressure and containment using only our front 4 D-linemen. When you can do that and don't have to blitz you can always have extra men in coverage and do the things we did.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

I believe Belichick instructed his players to yell "Sorry!  'Scuse me!" loud enough for the refs to hear, giving New England the benefit of the doubt.  Such a considerate team and nice HC! 
*
🙄

[Logic]

The way that the defensive back seven move and flow in these zone coverages is a thing of beauty.

It's the result of excellent coaching, smart players who study hard, and a secondary and linebacking unit that's now had several seasons playing together.

When it's functioning at the top of its game, as it was against the Chiefs, the Bills' secondary is almost impossible to beat. They understand spacing, they understand their job (doing their one eleventh, har har), they're unselfish, they don't freelance, and they execute the plays exactly as Frazier and McDermott draw them up.

The final piece of the puzzle that allows these zone defenses to work is a front four that can apply pressure to the quarterback. Even the best coverage can be beaten if the quarterback has all day to throw. The ability of the Bills front four to regularly affect the QB this year as opposed to last year is making a huge difference.

Watch those All-22 clips and try to imagine being the quarterback throwing into that defense. Where would you go with the ball? There are no good answers.

As exciting and explosive and fun to watch as the Bills offense is, I'm actually having even more fun watching the defense this year. Eleven players functioning as one unit, with a shared hive mind. An absolute thing of beauty.

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

15 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

I think in this league it is still a pick, they just don't call it unless it is noticeable.

 

Best thing is for the coaches to call attention to it to the refs and the next time have White run right into him and flail about and fall on the ground like a soccer player if you want to draw the flag.

 

 

 

 

As bad as Collinsworth's color commentary was Sunday, and make no mistake it was bad, he did make a valid observational point or two concerning a receiver's need for making it appear they are on a legitimate route run and thus disguise their true "pick" or interference purpose for the refs--I agree with that fwiw. 

[947]

I coach 8th grade football & we run a Rub Route play, modeled after the Brady to Edelman plays we used to see so often.

 

It obviously only works against man coverage. The outside WR runs a quick in, the CB covering him runs with him. He runs right at the slot DB that is covering the Slot WR,  stops, turns & looks for the pass while staying in his way. The Slot WR runs a quick out into the flat, while the slot DB gets hung up in the traffic. As long as the receiver doesn't actively block or initiate contact, it's perfectly legal to get in the way of a defender. If the Defense catches on & covers it, the receiver doing the "rub" is usually left open for the same result.

 

We use it mainly for 2pt conversions, as passing XP conversions are worth 2 points, vs only 1pt for running it.

[K-9]

Only half way thru the review and what strikes me most is the shear amount of hustle plays by every layer of the defense. Hustle is all desire and it cannot be coached. You either have that commitment to yourself and your teammates or you don’t. So far, I haven’t seen one player going thru the motions in this video. I particularly like D lineman getting downfield to get in the action and Zimmer does a helluva Randy White impression.

6 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

This is how refs miss the call:

No pick! No pick!

[Buffalo716]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So good breakdown, Cover1 gets a little fanboy about the Bills D but overall shows how Frazier crafted a solid gameplan and the players did a great job of communicating and sharing responsibilities to minimize the grey areas between zones that Mahomes exploited so well in the AFCCG.  Belt and suspenders belt and suspenders, backing each other up on almost every play all evening long.

 

To me, brings up a question though: what is a pick play?  If you go to about 18:30, clearest example of a play KC runs at least 3x.

 

White is covering Hill (actually on this play, it's #17 Blake Bell), who is off the LOS to the bottom of the screen.  Kelce is inside.  On the snap, Kelce slows his release so that his big ass is right in Whites way as he tries to follow his guy on a shallow crosser.

 

I'm not sure I understand how a pick play is defined.  Isn't that a pick?  Cover1 doesn't say anything about it.

 

Effectively, it seems like a pick in that in having to avoid Kelce's big ass, White is separated from the guy he's covering.  The first time the Chiefs did it, it worked for a first down and more.  The second time the Bills had Hyde drop in to help and he was in perfect position to make the tackle short of the sticks - as it happened, Hill deflected the pass and Hyde picked it for a TD so HA serves you right.

 

 

A pick , would be if the receiver ran into one of the defenders to free up space 

 

That's just well set up formation, that creates that initial separation in man coverage, because the size of Kelce

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So good breakdown, Cover1 gets a little fanboy about the Bills D

a little?

 

 

[WideNine]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

A pick , would be if the receiver ran into one of the defenders to free up space 

 

That's just well set up formation, that creates that initial separation in man coverage, because the size of Kelce

 

 

 

You're right, but the rub vs pick is a fine line and has some judgement involved whether it is a legit route and not OPI.

 

Contact certainly is a big part of whether it gets called. But whether the offensive player is running a real route or one designed to pick a defender is still a tough call.

 

Usually as long as the offensive player does not face up on the defender and TRY to make contact they are picking or are looking back at the QB it's viewed as a rub and it does not get called...also just about anything goes within 1 yd of the LOS.

 

Was watching the Tampa game where Gronk got "Gronked", but earlier that game he ran a short post where he slowed waaay down dragging his feet and impeded the defender and it was called.

 

Gronk's been doing that for a while, he did not contact the defender nor did he face him, so go figure.

 

Judgement call by the ref that dragging his feet and running in slow motion was not a real route?

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

The all-22 of our zone coverages is football porn. Our back 7 has an uncanny ability to drop back and end up right where the ball is supposed to go. It's the pinnacle of film study and game preparation. We don't have anyone on defense that I would consider to be the #1 player at their position across the league. Just a lot of intelligent hard working guys that know their role and execute it to perfection. That's how New England built elite defenses for years.

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

The all-22 of our zone coverages is football porn. Our back 7 has an uncanny ability to drop back and end up right where the ball is supposed to go. It's the pinnacle of film study and game preparation. We don't have anyone on defense that I would consider to be the #1 player at their position across the league. Just a lot of intelligent hard working guys that know their role and execute it to perfection. That's how New England built elite defenses for years.

 

Agreed although Tre White is darn close to the #1 at his position. He is the only one I'd say top 3 at his spot.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 hours ago, Tuco said:

Everything pointed out in this video was made possible because we were able to get decent (not always great, but adequate) pressure and containment using only our front 4 D-linemen. When you can do that and don't have to blitz you can always have extra men in coverage and do the things we did.

 

Agree, I think that was key.  The other thing this video impressed on me is how much good coverage depends upon scheme and playcalling - the way Hyde took up the gap left by Kelce scraping off Tre from Hill, for example.

 

I don't know why the lightbulb only just flashed on for me on D since I've been beating that drum on offense for years.

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agreed although Tre White is darn close to the #1 at his position. He is the only one I'd say top 3 at his spot.

 

Milano has arguably been the #1 WILL this year, but the defense didn't miss a beat with Klein replacing him. That is the incredible part of this defense. It works as a whole. I've used the comparison to the Washington d-line which is all elite individual talents that somehow don't work at all as a unit. Our starting front 4 is not nearly as talented but our d-line as a whole is performing much better.

 

White is definitely the one player we could not afford to lose. He is still underrated by Bills fans. A lot of fans talking about the defensive MVP are saying Milano or Hyde or Rousseau. White is the forgotten man while locking down #1 WRs week after week. He is more central to the defense than anyone.

Edited October 15, 2021 by HappyDays