Penalty Analysis: Bills vs Chiefs

[y2zipper]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I mean..... I did say all this at the time. The refs were not nearly as bad as Bills fans think. Both RTP calls were rulebook fouls and the one egregious penalty that Bills fans were legitimately annoyed by was the DPI on Tre on an uncatchable ball. 

 

He says pretty early on "let's at least be objective about it" I mean good luck. I have been trying to get Bills fans to be objective about penalties for almost a decade on this board. No luck yet.

 

For me it was more about what wasn't called. The RTPs only go to show how stupid the rules are and frankly, I don't think either of those hits should be penalties. The one Poyer got probably should he, but he also make that hit every time. 

 

I didn't like the inconsistency of the defensive holding calls. The Chiefs got a couple on the first drive that Buffalo didn't get, but it got better once that stopped. We've seen Buffalo incorporate more physical DB play this year on receivers because they saw in the title game that it wasn't going to be called so much and as the reputation changes it'll be called less. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The league cannot allow the roughing criteria to stand.  It is ridiculous at this point. If you cannot grab a QB around the ankles to bring him down as Oliver was doing, or if you cannot legitimately tackle a QB and bring him to the ground as Clark did to Josh, then you might as well say that the QB cannot be touched in any way.  The one on Clark, even given it helped us out, was insane.  Clark would have had to defy the laws of physics and gravity to avoid coming down on top of Josh, and Oliver would have had to twist himself into a pretzel to avoid Mahomes' legs.  

 

Oliver's shoulder landed just above the knee.  That's a penalty.  Low hits like this are why Jim Kelly spent much of his career wearing a knee brace.  Clark lifted Josh's legs and landed his shoulder into Josh's ribs.  That's called a stuff and is a penalty.  (AJ's hit on Tua that broke his ribs should have been flagged but his body position when landing on him was atypical for the call.)  The Bills teach a gator roll where the tackler twists on the way down to avoid the potential penalty on the landing.

 

Here's a recent one I saw involving Khalil Mack on Derek Carr which is a great example of the technique:

 

Mack Sack of Carr

Edited October 13, 2021 by JESSEFEFFER

[pocoboy]

8 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

Could the refs earpiece also be wired to NFL hierarchy to influence officiating?

 

 

This seems to have two components to me:

1. Individual calls - Ever since the Houston playoff game where the ref gave a TD on a kick returner flipping the ball instead of kneeling we've seen more and more "eye in the sky" guidance to help the officials get it right. Usually they huddle up to make it seem like they're talking with each other, but there seem to be more-and-more instances where someone with replay help is trying to ward off clearly bad calls. I think they have started to realize that fans are getting tired of the additional commercial breaks adding to game time on replay challenges.
2. "Game Flow" - I think in extreme cases this may be called down, like "You guys are calling too many penalties" or "that was a bad DPI". Largely I feel the officials are left to their own devices, but HQ steps in when it's clear that they need help - especially in prime time. I think the Sun 1pm games may have too many for HQ to be completely in tune to each game at that level.

 

Addendum - I'd like to think this isn't used to skew results to any one team, as I'm pretty sure the small-market Bills wouldn't be 4-1 in a profit-driven world.

Edited October 13, 2021 by pocoboy

[chris heff]

I’ve said this before the inconsistency drives me crazy. There were two obvious holds on Rousseau, you could see his jersey stretching, both not called, those holds slowed him down, who knows what would have happened. Guy can cover 10 yards in three steps. Refs can’t ignore those and then make those calls on Dawkins and White.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea they were not trying to rig the game. It was a bad game in the sense there were loads of ticky tacky flags. They are an over officious crew who throw flags all over the place. Could have told you that before the game. The majority of their calls (particularly the big ones) excluding the White DPI were by rule correct. 

 

Straw man.  The question isn't whether they refs were trying to rig the game, the question is whether the game was called (he doesn't even get into no-calls) in a manner which favored the Chiefs.  One need not have conscious or deliberate intent, to result in bias.  I believe you know this.

 

The article's conclusion is that it pretty clearly was.

[DapperCam]

3 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

It's a joke said by commentators that goes over some people's heads.

We have evidence that it happens in the NHL from Tim Peel. I don’t think NFL refs are above that sort of thing.

^ regarding makeup calls

Edited October 13, 2021 by DapperCam

[oldmanfan]

29 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

 

Oliver's shoulder landed just above the knee.  That's a penalty.  Low hits like this are why Jim Kelly spent much of his career wearing a knee brace.  Clark lifted Josh's legs and landed his shoulder into Josh's ribs.  That's called a stuff and is a penalty.  (AJ's hit on Tua that broke his ribs should have been flagged but his body position when landing on him was atypical for the call.)  The Bills teach a gator roll where the tackler twists on the way down to avoid the potential penalty on the landing.

 

Here's a recent one I saw involving Khalil Mack on Derek Carr which is a great example of the technique:

 

Mack Sack of Carr

Sorry, but to me this has gotten beyond the point of ridiculous.  And if you're going to suggest that the Epenesa sack of Tua in any way could have been called roughing, then the NFL has lost its mind.

[YattaOkasan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree on the Morse hold. That was not a penalty IMO. 

 

The Dawkins one is ticky tacky, but it is a hold and entirely consistent with the way this crew ref games week in and week out. A lot of other crews would not call that. But this crew if they see a player do that, they call it. 

 

 

Agree with this. The second Diggs in the third quarter where the DB does get there early and have a little grab at the arm, I am fine with that as a no call. It probably was an inconsistent no call for this crew. They normally call that. One can only assume they just didn't see the contact on the arm. 

I think yorue talking about the 3rd and short.  I was ok with it cause it was hard to see and they were behind the play.  The one a little later (series before Tre's DPI) was a bit more egregious.  Diggs gets his hands on the ball and the defender doesnt turn his head while being very physical with Diggs.  @ 12:12 in the highlights below

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The league cannot allow the roughing criteria to stand.  It is ridiculous at this point. If you cannot grab a QB around the ankles to bring him down as Oliver was doing, or if you cannot legitimately tackle a QB and bring him to the ground as Clark did to Josh, then you might as well say that the QB cannot be touched in any way.  The one on Clark, even given it helped us out, was insane.  Clark would have had to defy the laws of physics and gravity to avoid coming down on top of Josh, and Oliver would have had to twist himself into a pretzel to avoid Mahomes' legs.  

I agree those are both RTP.  Clark would have had to just not drive him into the ground and wouldve not gotten the flag.  He pushes to drive Allen into the ground, so to avoid the call he needed to stop (within the laws of physics).  Ed's play is not about bringing a QB down especially not as a runner.  Hes throwing so youre not trying to tackle him.  Youre trying to hit him and affect the throw.  So yeah it makes sense you can't smoke his knees when hes in that position.

[Freddie's Dead]

I don't understand people still quacking about the Dawkins hold.  It was clearly a hold and more importantly, it was at the point of attack.  Any hold there will be called consistently (see the Matakevich tiny hold that wiped out McKittrick's 30-yard PR).

[BigAl2526]

In real time I had a tough time seeing the Tre White PI call with a very critical eye.  I think it was pretty likely Kelce was to perpetrator.   I thought the Mitch Morse holding call was pretty disgusting too.

[uninja]

I figured coming in that this game was gonna be heavy on the yellow laundry. Bills D came in to make a statement, was playing things very physical and dared the Chiefs and the refs to counter. Refs threw lots of flags but the Bills were willing to eat them if it meant pushing the Chiefs around and slowing them down. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

One of the things that I haven't seen mentioned about the refs from this game were the OPI calls (1 on each team). 

 

OPI is a fairly rare call, and it's almost always called when the offense runs a pick play. In this game NEITHER of the OPI calls were pick plays. They were WR running straight down field (and straight into a defender). WRs are allowed to run their routes (even with a defender in the way) so I was pretty shocked they made that call twice.

 

Earlier in the game Neal was called for defensive holding on a play where Kelce was running straight into him. Neal tugged on Kelce's jersey as he was getting bowled over so I can see why the refs called a penalty on Neal (although with Kelce's contact I thought it should've been matching penalties or a no-call). Makes me wonder if McDermott got on the refs case after that and they were watching for WRs running through defenders after that play.

 

As for an overall analysis I have to say that the refs heavily favored the Chiefs in this game (the refs didn't rig the game, they just suck at their job). It would have been one of the most lopsided games ever were it not for the borderline roughing the passer call on Clark. 

 

It wasn't just the disparity in number of penalties and penalty yards, but the TIMING of the calls. How many times did the refs extend Chiefs drives with a defensive penalty on 3rd/4th down? I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know the Bills had no fewer than 3 drives that were killed after non-calls on the Chiefs (2 drives in the 2nd half died on failed 3rd downs where Diggs was interfered with) or a bad call on the Bills (holding by Dawkins). 

 

My list of bad calls/no calls throughout the game

 

1) Holding on Dawkins. Bad call but I see why the ref called it. Dawkins had his arm around the defender and when he turned to follow the ball it looked like Dawkins tugged him back a little bit. Dawkins foolishly put his hands up with the universal "I just committed a penalty please don't call it" look. The defender had no chance at stopping the play, and there was very light contact. Extremely ticky tack call on a 3rd down conversion that killed a likely TD drive (or at least a FG) and turned it into a punt.

 

2) Holding on Neal - outlined above

 

3) OPI on Josh Gordon - outlined above

 

4) No DPI call 

3rd & 2 at BUF 33

(13:48 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete short left to S.Diggs (L.Sneed).

The Bills first possession of the 2nd half. Watching the play live I thought the defender got to Diggs a little early. On replay the defender was definitely there early. This would've been a borderline penalty in a normal game, but with the standard the refs set in this game of calling it tight this absolutely should've been a penalty.

 

5) OPI on Sanders (declined) - outlined above 

 

6) RTP on Oliver - Borderline call. The rulebook bans hits on QBs below the knees, but I thought Oliver could make the argument he was blocked into him. Oliver also put very little force into the hit. This almost felt like a cumulative call. The Bills had a number of borderline (but legal) hits on Mahomes throughout the night, including on a few slides. 

 

7) No DPI call

3rd & 10 at BUF 17

(1:27 - 3rd) (Shotgun) J.Allen pass incomplete deep right to S.Diggs.

Clear and obvious penalty. The defender had Diggs arm hooked well before the ball got there and dragged Diggs down. No idea why this wasn't called.

 

 

8 )DPI on White - bad call but I see why the ref called it. Watching live I thought it was a penalty on White. On replay you can see mutual contact going down the field, and then Kelce actually drags White down. Kelce was never going to make the catch, but this probably doesn't meet the "uncatchable" standard refs apply on DPI calls. 

 

9) Holding on Morse. Far and away the worst call of the night and an inexcusable mistake by the refs. Morse wasn't even close to committing a holding penalty, and none of the other O-linemen were either. Phantom call indeed. 

 

10) RTP on Clark. The rulebook bans hits where a defender drives a QB into the ground. The key thing to me on this play is that Allen had left his feet and was in mid-air when Clark hit him. Allens legs popped up as a result and Clark drove him into the ground (he made the same mistake Dawkins did and put his hands up after the play). With the amount of force Clark put into the hit (very little) if Allen had his feet planted I doubt that Allen even goes down to the ground. Borderline call but I see why the refs made it (not even factoring the makeup call factor for the hold on Morse from the previous play). 

 

Couple more thoughts to wrap things up: 

 

Holding penalties - with the standard the refs set early in this game with the call on Dawkins (and how tight they called other penalties) they could've called the Chiefs Tackles for at least 5+ holds each. Groot was being held all game. Ironically they did call holding on the Chiefs O-Line twice and both were declined.   

 

Poyer - his hit on Kelce was ugly. No reason to do that late in a blowout 

 

Edit - final thought. The brutal no DPI call on Diggs I thought the defender could've been called for taunting after the play. He crosses his arms over his chest in Diggs face while on the Bills sideline? Taunting is supposedly a point of emphasis this year. That play looked very similar to the taunting call that Levi Wallace got in week 2

Edited October 13, 2021 by DabillsDaBillsDaBills

[Playoffs?]

7 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

Mitch Morse hold- Awful.

 

Dawkins hold- Ticky tack at best.

Nope, Collinsworth said Morse grabbed his jersey, and easy call…

[Meatloaf63]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not sure he does conclude that it was a poorly officiated game, he does not actually dispute the specific calls except the Tre White one. Which I said on Sunday Night (well early hours of Monday) was the one really bad call. 

 

I think the Morse holding penalty was bogus too. He doesn't address that one, but the other penalties called on the Bills were penalties. Some of them are soft and would not be called by other crews but this is a flag happy crew. That is how they officiate the game. Every game they ref is a flag show.

You are ignoring several holding calls ignored and the missed PI’s. The bad calls made were enough to get homers upset, but the missed calls were the big issue here….

[SoCal Deek]

There were two problems Sunday night:  Quantity and Quality (timing).

 

Quantity:

When top teams play each other in any sport, it's become pretty routine to "let them play".  Which is another way of saying "Let the teams work it out on the field."

 

Quality:

There were too many penalties called on 3rd down. Fans have come to expect Special Teams penalties (in fact when they don't call them you're wondering what happened).  Fans tend to forgive 1st down penalties, because they figure the teams can overcome them.  But...Sunday it seemed like every crucial 3rd down was being decided by the Refs.  That meant either keeping or changing possession on the whim of guys with the flags.

[Rocky Landing]

I haven't read the article yet, but I will say, Rousseau was practically undressed by their RT on a few plays.

 

I've never been of the mind, however, that the refs are crooked, and trying to throw a game one way, or the other. That would literally be a felony.

 

[Simon]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't think the Oliver one was. Neither were particularly aggressive hits but both are rulebook penalties. Some other crews would have let them go, but by the language of the rules you cannot land your body weight on a Quarterback and you can't hit a Quarterback in the knee area.

 

Where we have a disconnect re: the Oliver penalty and low "hits" is between how the rule is written and how it's being called.

The rule was written and intended to prevent "forcible contact" on QB's below the knee. It wasn't supposed to be a penalty for tackling a guy low, it was supposed to protect QB's from being "hit" low.

Unfortunately the officials don't want to deal with the subjectivity inherent in the rule so they have just taken to calling any contact at or below the knee as a penalty, even if it is just a guy grabbing hold and wrapping up. If they're not going to call it as it's written, I wish they would just scrap it. They can still leave the stripes the capability to call unnecessary roughness penalties for guys delivering egregious shots to the knee.

[GoBills808]

12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

But they were not consistent this week. All of the ticky tacky penalties were on Buffalo. People have pointed out the numerous offensive holds that KC got away with. That is the suspicious part. The roughing the passer penalty on Clark was not tricky tacky. He put his whole weight on Allen and another defender intentionally fell onto Allen's legs when he was already on the ground.

Correct. It’s disingenuous to say ‘this crew calls a lot of soft penalties’ when they only threw questionable flags at the Bills.

[CincyBillsFan]

9 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

 

9) Holding on Morse. Far and away the worst call of the night and an inexcusable mistake by the refs. Morse wasn't even close to committing a holding penalty, and none of the other O-linemen were either. Phantom call indeed. 

 

 

I just watched a highlight video of the game and the holding call on Morse is even worse then we thought. They show the Allen run and you don't see the flag fly into the picture until it's obvious that Allen will make the first down.  If I was the NFL I would be concerned at the timing of that flag.  If the ref thought Morse held on that play then the time to throw the flag was when Morse was locked up with the KC player and before Allen broke the pocket and took off.  Of course the replay clearly showed there was no hold at that point.

 

Why Collinsworth said what he said can only be put down to incompetence on his part or malice against the Bills as he was rooting for the Chiefs.  Al Micheal's grunts on seeing the replay were a pretty clear rebuke to Collinsworth's bizarre comment.

 

 

[HappyDays]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The Dawkins hold was ticky tacky but this crew calls ticky tacky. 

 

I don't think a single penalty called on KC was soft. I think several penalties on the Bills were soft and that several legitimate penalties were not called on KC. Which penalty called on KC would you equate with the hold called on Morse?