Penalty Analysis: Bills vs Chiefs

[Rochesterfan]

I actually think both @GunnerBill and @GoBills808 are correct even though they see things differently.  The author seems like he is saying it was not a greatly officiated game - there were a couple of blatant bad call against the Bills (Tre’ and Morse) and a couple of non calls.

 

He also makes the point that it was not nearly as poorly officiated as people think.  The majority of calls that were made were legitimate- even if some were ticky-tacky.  He did seem to agree the “harm” of the fouls greatly favored helping KC, but it had little bearing on the outcome.

 

I tend to agree with that assessment- with that particular crew that calls a lot of ticky-tack - the Bills were the far more aggressive team - both on offense and especially on defense and therefore were going to get more calls against them.  The Chiefs found that out in the Super Bowl - where this crew did not let them get away with anything.

 

Where I disagree with the author was when and where some of the calls were made and ignored.  There were several throws to Diggs that he got hit, bumped, grabbed - just before the ball got there.  They seemed to call those very close against Buffalo - especially early, but let those go against KC’s DBs.  Those non-calls created additional uncounted “Harm” against the Bills and if he is really doing a dive into the officiating - they are critical to the outcome.  
 

The Bills defense was flagged many times more than KC’s defense with the Bills defense playing as aggressive all over the field - it should have equated to more offensive holding calls.  There were a few I saw that were more egregious than the one on Dawkins and way more legitimate than the one on Morse.

 

Overall - I think the officials were pretty bad, but I don’t think it is a conspiracy- I think they called a lot early to try and establish their parameters and those went against Buffalo.  They are an over flag happy group and tend to flag the bigger aggressors.  
 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Mitch Morse hold- Awful.

 

Dawkins hold- Ticky tack at best.

 

I agree on the Morse hold. That was not a penalty IMO. 

 

The Dawkins one is ticky tacky, but it is a hold and entirely consistent with the way this crew ref games week in and week out. A lot of other crews would not call that. But this crew if they see a player do that, they call it. 

 

14 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I actually think both @GunnerBill and @GoBills808 are correct even though they see things differently.  The author seems like he is saying it was not a greatly officiated game - there were a couple of blatant bad call against the Bills (Tre’ and Morse) and a couple of non calls.

 

He also makes the point that it was not nearly as poorly officiated as people think.  The majority of calls that were made were legitimate- even if some were ticky-tacky.  He did seem to agree the “harm” of the fouls greatly favored helping KC, but it had little bearing on the outcome.

 

I tend to agree with that assessment- with that particular crew that calls a lot of ticky-tack - the Bills were the far more aggressive team - both on offense and especially on defense and therefore were going to get more calls against them.  The Chiefs found that out in the Super Bowl - where this crew did not let them get away with anything.

 

Where I disagree with the author was when and where some of the calls were made and ignored.  There were several throws to Diggs that he got hit, bumped, grabbed - just before the ball got there.  They seemed to call those very close against Buffalo - especially early, but let those go against KC’s DBs.  Those non-calls created additional uncounted “Harm” against the Bills and if he is really doing a dive into the officiating - they are critical to the outcome.  
 

The Bills defense was flagged many times more than KC’s defense with the Bills defense playing as aggressive all over the field - it should have equated to more offensive holding calls.  There were a few I saw that were more egregious than the one on Dawkins and way more legitimate than the one on Morse.

 

Overall - I think the officials were pretty bad, but I don’t think it is a conspiracy- I think they called a lot early to try and establish their parameters and those went against Buffalo.  They are an over flag happy group and tend to flag the bigger aggressors.  

 

Agree with this. The second Diggs in the third quarter where the DB does get there early and have a little grab at the arm, I am fine with that as a no call. It probably was an inconsistent no call for this crew. They normally call that. One can only assume they just didn't see the contact on the arm. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by GunnerBill

[No_Matter_What]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not sure he does conclude that it was a poorly officiated game, he does not actually dispute the specific calls except the Tre White one. Which I said on Sunday Night (well early hours of Monday) was the one really bad call. 

 

I think the Morse holding penalty was bogus too. He doesn't address that one, but the other penalties called on the Bills were penalties. Some of them are soft and would not be called by other crews but this is a flag happy crew. That is how they officiate the game. Every game they ref is a flag show.

He does. "The holding call on Mitch Morse was just...incredibly bad by the refs. I’m not even gonna give a GIF on that. Moving on..."

 

While I overall 100% agree with your sentiment that fans are extremely unobjective when it comes to officiating and tend only to comment on all calls which went against their team and instantly forget the other ones, and also with your opinion that this game wasn't as bad as people are making it, it is still hard to argue that this article is still very critical on officiating in this game and calls it a "bad game" in this respect.

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

He does. "The holding call on Mitch Morse was just...incredibly bad by the refs. I’m not even gonna give a GIF on that. Moving on..."

 

While I overall 100% agree with your sentiment that fans are extremely unobjective when it comes to officiating and tend only to comment on all calls which went against their team and instantly forget the other ones, and also with your opinion that this game wasn't as bad as people are making it, it is still hard to argue that this article is still very critical on officiating in this game and calls it a "bad game" in this respect.

 

Ah missed that. Thanks. It was 7am UK time when I read it. I agree with him on that one too. The Morse call was bad. 

[Pete]

The Bills not only got burned by horrible, ticky tack calls(Morse, White, Dawkins, Oliver)- but they were also huge plays that could of affected outcome.  IMO Frank Clark was a make up call, just because the refs realized they burned Buffalo bad several times

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Other teams get screwed by the refs as well, and it's a coin flip every week as to which team will get screwed more. 

I don't think it's a coin flip, man... 

 

(Puts on tin foil hat)

 

I think it's based on the betting line. 

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

The Bills not only got burned by horrible, ticky tack calls(Morse, White, Dawkins, Oliver)- but they were also huge plays that could of affected outcome.  IMO Frank Clark was a make up call, just because the refs realized they burned Buffalo bad several times

People gotta stop with this make-up call crap. That's not a thing.

 

It's a joke said by commentators that goes over some people's heads.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

The Bills not only got burned by horrible, ticky tack calls(Morse, White, Dawkins, Oliver)- but they were also huge plays that could of affected outcome.  IMO Frank Clark was a make up call, just because the refs realized they burned Buffalo bad several times

 

See I separate Morse and White out - they were bad calls. Mistakes by the officials. Dawkins, Oliver and Clark were all 'soft' in a sense but were all rulebook penalties. A lot of crews in the NFL would not have called them, but this crew is flag happy on a week to week basis. They are pretty consistent calling those. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

5 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

Could the refs earpiece also be wired to NFL hierarchy to influence officiating?

 

Seems once the pick 6 happened the calls started getting one sided. Before that I thought they were calling a tough but fair game. 

[BillsFan130]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree on the Morse hold. That was not a penalty IMO. 

 

The Dawkins one is ticky tacky, but it is a hold and entirely consistent with the way this crew ref games week in and week out. A lot of other crews would not call that. But this crew if they see a player do that, they call it. 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I'll take your word on it as I can't say I'm familiar with how they call games.

[oldmanfan]

The league cannot allow the roughing criteria to stand.  It is ridiculous at this point. If you cannot grab a QB around the ankles to bring him down as Oliver was doing, or if you cannot legitimately tackle a QB and bring him to the ground as Clark did to Josh, then you might as well say that the QB cannot be touched in any way.  The one on Clark, even given it helped us out, was insane.  Clark would have had to defy the laws of physics and gravity to avoid coming down on top of Josh, and Oliver would have had to twist himself into a pretzel to avoid Mahomes' legs.  

[Fixxxer]

After the non call DPI on Diggs (3rd QTR 1'31''), the chiefs defender turned to him and stood in his face with his arms crossed. I guess the point of emphasis to enforce this type of penalties didn't apply in week 5. 

[Coach Tuesday]

There was a play in this game where the Chiefs were called for offensive holding and it resulted in a 5-yard GAIN for them.  I’m not making this up, it happened.  McDermott lost his mind.  The FBI should open a file on it.  That is all.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I mean..... I did say all this at the time. The refs were not nearly as bad as Bills fans think. Both RTP calls were rulebook fouls and the one egregious penalty that Bills fans were legitimately annoyed by was the DPI on Tre on an uncatchable ball. 

 

He says pretty early on "let's at least be objective about it" I mean good luck. I have been trying to get Bills fans to be objective about penalties for almost a decade on this board. No luck yet.

I have come to realize that I wish I could take those approach to the game(s).  It would make everything on game day more enjoyable, and less personal.  
 

That said, I would like to throw eggs at your house, and I hope you left a couple windows open. 

[SoCal Deek]

33 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

There was a play in this game where the Chiefs were called for offensive holding and it resulted in a 5-yard GAIN for them.  I’m not making this up, it happened.  McDermott lost his mind.  The FBI should open a file on it.  That is all.

I remember that play and as I recall the rule is that the penalty is assessed from where it occurred…so yes it can result in a net gain on the play.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

I did The Zebra Report for a season a few years back.  I gave it up as a waste of time because my conclusion was that the state of refereeing in the NFL was abysmal, and it still is.  Instant replay is a joke because it's not equally applied (the Kelvin Benjamin TD that wasn't, the Dawson Knox INT that wasn't, the Bills TD in the HOU playoff game that wasn't, etc.).  Other teams get screwed by the refs as well, and it's a coin flip every week as to which team will get screwed more. 

 

For all the crap about the Clark penalty, IT WAS THE ONLY DEFENSIVE PENALTY ON KC FOR THE ENTIRE GAME!  I'm not buying it.  The most egregious example is when Diggs had his hand grabbed and pulled away on a sideline catch, which should have been DPI, but wasn't, forcing us to punt.  On the KC offensive side, Groot was being held all game long, on nearly every play.  There was one play where the RT just reached out and grabbed Groot's right arm with both hands as Groot was zeroing in on the Rat.  No call.  There were a couple holds we got away with on offense, but nothing as blatant as what happened to Groot.  The Dawkins call was the right one.  You have to call holding at the point of attack, no matter if Moss was past the LOS or not.  Dumb play by Dion.

 

I was an umpire for 5 years, and I'm an official for an Olympic sport.  I am pro official.  But the level of inconsistency I see from NFL referees week in and week out is too much to ignore.     

I am looking to buy some eggs for a project I am working on, and require both anonymity and someone who can keep their mouth shut when the Bobbys come by for a chat.  Market rate x 2.

 

 

[The Jokeman]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

The Bills not only got burned by horrible, ticky tack calls(Morse, White, Dawkins, Oliver)- but they were also huge plays that could of affected outcome.  IMO Frank Clark was a make up call, just because the refs realized they burned Buffalo bad several times

It may or may not have been a make up call but it was RTP in that he seemed to lean his weight into Josh as he was going down, so by the way the rule was written a correct call. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The Dawkins one is ticky tacky, but it is a hold and entirely consistent with the way this crew ref games week in and week out.

 

But they were not consistent this week. All of the ticky tacky penalties were on Buffalo. People have pointed out the numerous offensive holds that KC got away with. That is the suspicious part. The roughing the passer penalty on Clark was not tricky tacky. He put his whole weight on Allen and another defender intentionally fell onto Allen's legs when he was already on the ground.

[TPS]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Have not found this elsewhere on the board

 

Especially interested in the Tre White pass interference call on Kelce.  Pretty big penalty because instead of 3rd and 5 at the 33, they had 1st and 10 at the 15 and went on to score.  In the clip shown, seems pretty clear Kelce knew he couldn't catch the ball so he grabbed White and flopped, pulling White with him.  No Devil like an Old Devil.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2021/10/12/22721807/penalty-recap-buffalo-bills-at-kansas-city-is-a-mess

 

By the way, the author Skarekrow points out that the PF penalties on Clark and on Ed Oliver were both correct by rule.

 

 

During the game I commented (to anyone listening) that it looked like Kelce pulled Tre down. Can’t get angry over a smart move by the other side. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But they were not consistent this week. All of the ticky tacky penalties were on Buffalo. People have pointed out the numerous offensive holds that KC got away with. That is the suspicious part. The roughing the passer penalty on Clark was not tricky tacky. He put his whole weight on Allen and another defender intentionally fell onto Allen's legs when he was already on the ground.

 

The author deals with the "numerous offensive holds by KC" in his article. There was one possible hold I thought went uncalled on Rousseau but generally most of what people thought were holds were not. I didn't call the Clark penalty ticky tacky. I don't think the Oliver one was. Neither were particularly aggressive hits but both are rulebook penalties. Some other crews would have let them go, but by the language of the rules you cannot land your body weight on a Quarterback and you can't hit a Quarterback in the knee area. The Dawkins hold was ticky tacky but this crew calls ticky tacky. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The author deals with the "numerous offensive holds by KC" in his article. There was one possible hold I thought went uncalled on Rousseau but generally most of what people thought were holds were not. I didn't call the Clark penalty ticky tacky. I don't think the Oliver one was. Neither were particularly aggressive hits but both are rulebook penalties. Some other crews would have let them go, but by the language of the rules you cannot land your body weight on a Quarterback and you can't hit a Quarterback in the knee area. The Dawkins hold was ticky tacky but this crew calls ticky tacky. 

On top of the Dawkins call being very weak I sometimes get the impression, right or wrong, that the ref's make calls that are situational.  Similar to the "make up call" that seems to happen from time to time.  In this case the Bills pop off a big run down inside the 10 in a game situation where another TD might turn the game into an early rout.  Then we get a ticky tack call on a "hold" that was completely inconsequential to the play.  Back 10 yards and a couple plays later after the grounding call out of FG range and a punt.