Yes, the refs suck. No, they are not angling for the Bills to lose.

[Scott7975]

8 hours ago, ticketssince61 said:

  

To me it looked like JA jumped to make the throw and Clark hit him while he was already in the air

 

This is true.  It is also true that he drove Allen to the ground and landed on him with full body weight.  Thats a foul.  They changed that rule years ago.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Scott7975

[chris heff]

I have a problem with the inconsistency. In the first half there was a non-call where defender almost pulled Rousseau’s jersey off, it was in the open not in traffic, it was obvious. Later in the game a Chief’s drive was kept alive by defensive holding call where Bills DB, while falling got a handful of jersey and immediately let go. It did not affect the play. I find those things infuriating.

[Jobot]

14 hours ago, fan_in_tx said:

With all due respect, I believe it was a make up call for the phantom holding call the play before.  No holding call then there is no need for Josh to be in that position and throw the pick.

 

The defender did drive his weight into Allen, so per the rules it was 100% warranted.

 

The phantom Offside should result in that official losing his job if there's not a warranted explanation.

[Jobot]

1 hour ago, BFLO said:

 

Tired of this narrative that both RTP's were bad calls and that the refs equally sucked for both teams. 

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

https://twitter.com/MarkEnnis/status/1447408923615576068?s=20

Roughing the Mahomes was called on #91 Ed Oliver. Despite the words coming out of Collinsworth's useless mouth the hit was neither late or illegal for "below or at the knees" 

1. The hit was not late as defined by the rule. Oliver had launched himself while Mahomes still had the ball and makes contact without taking any steps after the ball was released. "The Referee will use the release of the ball from the passer’s hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected; once a pass has been released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through the rusher’s first step after such release"

2. The hit area was not illegal, Mahomes was in the air with neither foot on the ground, and Oliver was being "blocked/fouled" into a lower point of attack by the O-line(Oliver was held by the chiefs o-lineman and sort of tackled from behind). "A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him". 

#50 Rousseau also hit Mahomes on this play, and was technically late as he takes 2 steps. He was also blocked/fouled from behind by the chiefs o-line. Roussea basically just loosely wrapped up Mahomes's legs from behind and bumps his head into Mahomes butt. Not enough force or violence to it to constitute a penalty

 

 

Just to clarify, the Mahommes hit was fine, Allen hit was rightfully flagged?

[MAJBobby]

I fully believe that Refs (just like the WWE) control everything.  League and NBC would not want a blowout on Sunday, and the Refs are the ones charged to make that happen.  Tooo many times do I see the Refs make Phantom calls that slightly change the game.  I do not think that Refs are deciding who wins and loses, but I ABSOLUTELY do think there is enough evidence out there to show that they will impact games to keep close (ratings, etc) this is why they always say good teams can overcome the refs.  

 

Think in terms of NBC and NFL, what would have been the worst outcome for Sunday Night - Bills 40s Chiefs 14.  Same with Monday Night.  They want those prime time games to generate as much ratings as possible, and the Refs keeping those games competitive is the exact way to do it.  All about the $$$ and it is AWLAYS about the $$$

Edited October 12, 2021 by MAJBobby

[BADOLBILZ]

 

PSA

 

Don't bother yourself over officiating.  Ever.  

 

The game is much more enjoyable this way.

 

If one imbalanced call costs them the game.......you can rest assured your team didn't play well enough to deserve to win but maybe just enough to hope to win.

 

The Bills have been on an epic run of blowouts.    The idea that games have to be mostly one score affairs is because mediocrity is where most teams in the league exist.   Mediocre teams and coaches consistently negotiate themselves into close games. 

 

But there are things players can do to avoid getting calls against them.   The Bills can be better at that.

 

Not diving at a QB's legs on 3rd and long when you are up 2 scores in the second half like Ed Oliver did......not grabbing a sealed and harmless DE in clear view of an official like Dawkins did on the long Moss run that was negated.   These are things that the player can control and become more savvy about.

 

I actually think we are seeing smarter play now......the benefits gained from all the experience this team has together.........but there is still obvious room for improvement from some vets that should know better.    Another really big game under the belt should help them with composure in subsequent ones as well.  

 

Officiating in any sport is mostly about anticipation of potential penalty points.......without it the game moves too fast to call(which is how the inconceivable PI/tackle in the Rams/Saints NFCCG got blown).  So a player has to know what's being looked for.  And like it or not, you have to take the approach that human nature is that officials will be a little more focused on infractions that might hurt the trailing team.   

[cage]

2 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

Do you think the call on KC was also "ticky tac"?  Both calls, Oliver and the one on KC converted drivers that eventually led to TD's.  KC had an INT wiped off the board.  Or do you see the KC as obvious and egregious but the call on Oliver was ticky tac?   

 

I didn't like the Oliver RTP, but he did go for the hit low on the legs, which does get flagged.  I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before.

[BuffaloFan68]

The way the refs were calling that game I didn't think we had a chance to win it but in hindsight, I now realize the refs were just trying to keep us from completely destroying KC in an embarrassing manor.  Let's save that for the playoffs. 

Let's Go Buffalo!!!!!

[BuffaloFan68]

19 minutes ago, cage said:

 I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before.

So agree with this. 

[Mrbojanglezs]

In today's world I assume corrupt until proven otherwise 

[LABILLBACKER]

Sorry I don't buy it. The NFL has had the capacity to gently steer certain games any direction they want. And for advertising/revenue purposes they've been doing it for 30 years. Call it the Jordan rules or whatever term you want but it exists and you're naive to think otherwise. Our game starts off with 6 penalties in the 1st quarter. After the ignored Diggs PI and the Oliver late hit around the ankles I was convinced the Shield was trying to keep their cash cow player "in it". Its not like Mahomes had 7 different commercials running Sunday night. It got to the point where the Bills made it impossible for the refs to keep up this nonsense. It's been a part of football for many years. It's a shame.....

[MTBill]

32 fanbases think the refs are out to get them.

 

The parity of the NFL where most games feel close enough to be won, makes every play overemphasized and if there is (or isn't) yellow, someone feels gipped.

 

I think the refs do a heck of a job most of the time, the plays I really hate are the judgement calls where there is no safety net, flag is thrown or not thrown and you can't reverse that split second decision by one person who did/didn't see something. What changed in the NFL is just how close every game feels (imho). It used to be there were blowouts all of the time.

 

I'll tell you one more thing.  I'm a data analyst by trade - but I think this whole analytics thing has gone way too far in sports.  Football has always been a game of inches, we don't need a micrometer to analyze every damn play and come up with a crazy statistic about it because we can. If that statistic has history enough to say - when XYZ happens, teams win (or lose) most of the time, those are important.  Not the speed some guy ran on one play, or how tight the window was for the ball to be thrown.  That's what players are paid to do - and what they've been doing since the game was born. Proof of why analytics are overdone?  Josh Allen. He has something beyond analytics - and that just pisses the hell out of the analytics folks who think they know everything.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, cage said:

 

I didn't like the Oliver RTP, but he did go for the hit low on the legs, which does get flagged.  I think the Clark RTP had nothing to do with that, it was a make-up on the Morse phantom hold that wiped out our first down the play before.

I think Clark was guilty of RTP based on the bolded below.   When they started with the enhanced RTP, the driving to the ground was a point of emphasis, you can make conact in the strike zone but you need to try and not drive them to the ground.  It is tough to be a defender these days but I think Clark could have and should have eased off.  I think it was a flag but dont think he is dirty or anything.  The crew calling the game does not know the rule.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

 

A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.

 

Also, this is why Oliver was guilty

A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him.

Edited October 12, 2021 by mattynh

[BFLO]

40 minutes ago, mattynh said:

I think Clark was guilty of RTP based on the bolded below.   When they started with the enhanced RTP, the driving to the ground was a point of emphasis, you can make conact in the strike zone but you need to try and not drive them to the ground.  It is tough to be a defender these days but I think Clark could have and should have eased off.  I think it was a flag but dont think he is dirty or anything.  The crew calling the game does not know the rule.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/roughing-the-passer/

 

A rushing defender is prohibited from committing such intimidating and punishing acts as “stuffing” a passer into the ground or unnecessarily wrestling or driving him down after the passer has thrown the ball, even if the rusher makes his initial contact with the passer within the one-step limitation provided for in (a) above. When tackling a passer who is in a defenseless posture (e.g., during or just after throwing a pass), a defensive player must not unnecessarily or violently throw him down or land on top of him with all or most of the defender’s weight. Instead, the defensive player must strive to wrap up the passer with the defensive player’s arms and not land on the passer with all or most of his body weight.

 

Also, this is why Oliver was guilty

A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him.

Oliver was not guilty. Read what you posted again, "forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground".  Mahomes had both feet in the air so hitting him in the knees was perfectly legal. 

[Matt_In_NH]

7 minutes ago, BFLO said:

Oliver was not guilty. Read what you posted again, "forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground".  Mahomes had both feet in the air so hitting him in the knees was perfectly legal. 

Forcibly is subjective so that gets decided by the ref, not a Bills fan....I think it qualifies.  But I agree on the feet on the ground aspect, initial contact happened with feet in the air.   That is an interesting part of the rule, doubt the ref was looking for that.

[BFLO]

6 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Forcibly is subjective so that gets decided by the ref, not a Bills fan....I think it qualifies.  But I agree on the feet on the ground aspect, initial contact happened with feet in the air.   That is an interesting part of the rule, doubt the ref was looking for that.

The amount of force is subjective, but luckily in this case it's entirely irrelevant as both feet were in the air, which is not subjective. Edit: Which makes this a legal hit as the hit was both on time and Mahomes was in the air, making the contact with the knees irrelevant. 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by BFLO

[Matt_In_NH]

13 minutes ago, BFLO said:

The amount of force is subjective, but luckily in this case it's entirely irrelevant as both feet were in the air, which is not subjective. Edit: Which makes this a legal hit as the hit was both on time and Mahomes was in the air, making the contact with the knees irrelevant. 

 

Agree with you, force is irrelevant per the wording of the rule for the reason you cited.  I did not catch his feet in the air during the game, I assumed at least one was on the ground.  If I understand the rules (which I may not) you cannot hit the passer in the knees forcibly whether "on time" or not unless you are blocked into him.

[BFLO]

1 hour ago, mattynh said:

Agree with you, force is irrelevant per the wording of the rule for the reason you cited.  I did not catch his feet in the air during the game, I assumed at least one was on the ground.  If I understand the rules (which I may not) you cannot hit the passer in the knees forcibly whether "on time" or not unless you are blocked into him.

Correct, or if the passers feet were not on the ground. 

[BananaB]

There is a definite bias for some teams and some players.  Might not be out to get the Bills but they are out to try to keep some games close, especially in primetime. 

[BearNorth]

We have Blakeman's crew against the Titans.  They were a bit flag happy last season in the Denver game, including 2 Offensive PI's and a bs roughing the passer call on Milano.  Guess they were trying to keep it close [Bills won 48-19].