[Edit] Jon Gruden resigns over controversial emails discovered in WFT investigation

[Jerome007]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know where you work.  Where I worked, using the wrong words about the wrong people at the wrong time could absolutely forfeit your opportunity to be employed by a given company, or even in a given business.  This isn't a new thing; it's always been that way.

 

Making it into some sort of morally relativistic matter ("he didn't do anything THAT horrible") misses the point. 

 

Insulting the Head Honchos and owners in writing has ALWAYS been what we called a "Career Limiting Move".

 

 

No YOU missed my point. He does deserve some punishment, I wrote that. But not PERMANENT BANISHMENT from all things football related! That's why I used the other incidents, as these dudes got suspended... but not for LIFE, and not in every possible aspect. If you don't think that's overkill, that's on you. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

No YOU missed my point. He does deserve some punishment, I wrote that. But not PERMANENT BANISHMENT from all things football related! That's why I used the other incidents, as these dudes got suspended... but not for LIFE, and not in every possible aspect. If you don't think that's overkill, that's on you. 

 

But see, this isn't a legal thing.  You insult the wrong people to the wrong people, you lose their trust in you and your judgement. 

 

Gruden hasn't been "permanently banished", he's resigned - speaking of "overkill".  But a person doen't have a right to "regained trust".  Employment by a specific business or employer is not some kind of a "civil right"

[Jerome007]

11 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Didn't he just kick the arm she was holding herself up with out from under her, still a dick move but significantly less then kicking her in the head.

Yeah, reading kicking a woman in the head while she was on the floor seems quite the crime, but it wasn't that bad. He got the right punishment. Gruden will likely never work in any shape or form in anything NFL related unless he starts his online blog etc. Total overkill punishment.

 

I just saw a great Steve Tasker interview, and one of the peeps asking questions AND praising him with obvious respect is Keyshawn Johnson. Remember him and his BOOK that includes racial innuendos against his White teammate? Talk about bad. A book. Worse than emails that were meant to be private. Yet, he still played, had a super career, can work in football still.. as it should be. Punishments must fit the crimes.

[Bill from NYC]

Please believe me, I am not defending Gruden.  I initially sided with him just a bit until the rest of his comments were aired.  I don't feel sorry for him either. I am 100% sure that he received quite the bonus package, unless there was a clause in his contract that would void it over e-mails he sent 6 or 7 years before he signed it. As I said in an earlier post, I never thought Gruden was terribly intelligent. Now, what you said about the world not being fair is beyond dispute. Yet, almost all of us do use "whataboutism" when it fits our narrative.  Mine is simple:

 

There are/were 2 state governors (no names, no parties) who have done things 100x worse than writing insensitive, even mean spirited e-mails about a few multi-millionaires, 7 years ago. But once again, I have no sympathy for Gruden and don't care that he stepped down. In fact, I lean closer to being glad.

 

I do however think that is a sad state of affairs when a stupid jerk football coach is held to higher standards than our elected officials, so yes....to totally discard "whataboutism"  really isn't so easy to do these days.

 

JMO

 

 

[Jerome007]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But see, this isn't a legal thing.  You insult the wrong people to the wrong people, you lose their trust in you and your judgement. 

 

Gruden hasn't been "permanently banished", he's resigned - speaking of "overkill".  But a person doen't have a right to "regained trust".  Employment by a specific business or employer is not some kind of a "civil right"

Approve censorship if you want. I don't. These emails were so dumb my head hurts ha ha, but they were still made to be private, and while he does make antigay remarks, that's true, most of the other supposedly racists or antiwomen stuff is pouty mouth football/sports talk, stuff that's being going on forever just a few years back in sports, certainly in his days.

 

Dumb? Oh yes. Now that it's public, he had to "resign"? Sure. But banned from all future announcing jobs, analyst, advisor, coaching, etc. for life? Nope, I don't agree, at all.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Approve censorship if you want. I don't. These emails were so dumb my head hurts ha ha, but they were still made to be private, and while he does make antigay remarks, that's true, most of the other supposedly racists or antiwomen stuff is pouty mouth football/sports talk, stuff that's being going on forever just a few years back in sports, certainly in his days.

 

Dumb? Oh yes. Now that it's public, he had to "resign"? Sure. But banned from all future announcing jobs, analyst, advisor, coaching, etc. for life? Nope, I don't agree, at all.

 

We agree on the "dumb".  The disagreement seems to be on the "private", perhaps.

 

If you want your email to be private, download PGP and have the user you're sending it to download PGP.  If you're sending an email to someone's NFL work address and expect it to be "private", that's naive AND dumb.  Been that way for decades.

 

There's nothing about him being officially "banned" from anything for life.  But look at it this way.  There are, at least, dozens if not hundreds or thousands, of qualified applicants for each of those jobs who have NOT done something dumb that deservedly breaking of management trust in the guy's judgement and integrity.

 

How is it fair to employ someone who has been shown to have done that, over dozens or hundreds or thousands of other applicants who have not?

 

"Censorship" is irrelevant here.

[Jerome007]

43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We agree on the "dumb".  The disagreement seems to be on the "private", perhaps.

 

If you want your email to be private, download PGP and have the user you're sending it to download PGP.  If you're sending an email to someone's NFL work address and expect it to be "private", that's naive AND dumb.  Been that way for decades.

 

There's nothing about him being officially "banned" from anything for life.  But look at it this way.  There are, at least, dozens if not hundreds or thousands, of qualified applicants for each of those jobs who have NOT done something dumb that deservedly breaking of management trust in the guy's judgement and integrity.

 

How is it fair to employ someone who has been shown to have done that, over dozens or hundreds or thousands of other applicants who have not?

 

"Censorship" is irrelevant here.

Oh yeah thousands of other applicants have the resume of Gruden 🙄. I love how pro-censorship people justify it to themselves every which way as the 'cause' is so just as to justify any means. You know it's all about not shocking anyone, not any actual crime committed here? Yet his punishment will be way worse than those that did, and violent ones at that. But hey, it's just "moral relativism" to point this, right? Stealing gas is the same as raping and killing? Oh yeah, I forgot, it's not a legal case here, so who cares, ban the man for life.  BTW, you know that all the suspensions, even if related to crime, were not in a way part of a legal process either? 

 

BTW I wouldn't want Gruden as a coach for the Bills, didn't care at all for his commenting, but that was because my respect of his skills were not very high. I seem to "defend" him now it's because I can't stand this PC mob justice, media fed at that,  that's partial and strangely only applies to a certain group and not others. I wish none of it existed BTW, not that it'd be applied to all! It can affect all of us, and the ones not getting censored now wil get their turn later if the string pullers decide so.

 

Re-edit: if you fire him for being a pouty mouth, insulting the commissioner and very specific people, having made an anti-gay remark, all things that look bad and unprofessional for the Raiders organization he is head coach for, fine. But it goes way beyond, now he is accused of being a bigot, racist, misogynic, and all that crap. Sorry, but his track record and even his remarks don't point to that. Complete overkill, yet again, when it's these subject matters.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Jerome007

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Oh yeah thousands of other applicants have the resume of Gruden 🙄. I love how pro-censorship people justify it to themselves every which way as the 'cause' is so just as to justify any means. You know it's all about not shocking anyone, not any actual crime committed here? Yet his punishment will be way worse than those that did, and violent ones at that. But hey, it's just "moral relativism" to point this, right? Stealing gas is the same as raping and killing? Oh yeah, I forgot, it's not a legal case here, so who cares, ban the man for life.  BTW, you know that all the suspensions, even if related to crime, were not in a way part of a legal process either? 

 

BTW I wouldn't want Gruden as a coach for the Bills, didn't care at all for his commenting, but that was because my respect of his skills were not very high. I seem to "defend" him now it's because I can't stand this PC mob justice, media fed at that,  that's partial and strangely only applies to a certain group and not others. I wish none of it existed BTW, not that it'd be applied to all! It can affect all of us, and the ones not getting censored now wil get their turn later if the string pullers decide so.

 

Re-edit: if you fire him for being a pouty mouth, insulting the commissioner and very specific people, having made an anti-gay remark, all things that look bad and unprofessional for the Raiders organization he is head coach for, fine. But it goes way beyond, now he is accused of being a bigot, racist, misogynic, and all that crap. Sorry, but his track record and even his remarks don't point to that. Complete overkill, yet again, when it's these subject matters.

 

I think you're not listening at all to anything I say much less acknowledging it, which makes it unsatisfying to try to discuss with you. 
Example:

-Dozens or hundreds or thousands of other applicants have one thing until proven otherwise that Gruden does not on his resume: respect and integrity towards his employers/higher-ups in his industry, and respect and integrity towards others.  Gruden's resume as either a coach or a commentator is not so strong that it makes up for that.

-You have yet to show this has anything to do with "censorship" much less that I or anyone else here is a "pro censorship people".  Define censorship, and then explain what is being censored.

 

So I'm out.

 

I'll leave you with this:

 

[BuffaloRebound]

23 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Oh yeah thousands of other applicants have the resume of Gruden 🙄. I love how pro-censorship people justify it to themselves every which way as the 'cause' is so just as to justify any means. You know it's all about not shocking anyone, not any actual crime committed here? Yet his punishment will be way worse than those that did, and violent ones at that. But hey, it's just "moral relativism" to point this, right? Stealing gas is the same as raping and killing? Oh yeah, I forgot, it's not a legal case here, so who cares, ban the man for life.  BTW, you know that all the suspensions, even if related to crime, were not in a way part of a legal process either? 

 

BTW I wouldn't want Gruden as a coach for the Bills, didn't care at all for his commenting, but that was because my respect of his skills were not very high. I seem to "defend" him now it's because I can't stand this PC mob justice, media fed at that,  that's partial and strangely only applies to a certain group and not others. I wish none of it existed BTW, not that it'd be applied to all! It can affect all of us, and the ones not getting censored now wil get their turn later if the string pullers decide so.

 

Re-edit: if you fire him for being a pouty mouth, insulting the commissioner and very specific people, having made an anti-gay remark, all things that look bad and unprofessional for the Raiders organization he is head coach for, fine. But it goes way beyond, now he is accused of being a bigot, racist, misogynic, and all that crap. Sorry, but his track record and even his remarks don't point to that. Complete overkill, yet again, when it's these subject matters.

Who’s banning him from anything in the future?  America is the land of 2nd chances.  Even if he doesn’t show remorse, it seems like he’s the right wing’s new fanboy and has a future in politics if he chooses.  

[LeviF]

3 hours ago, BTB said:

Agree.  No way are any of them going to be released for public consumption.  It would be a nightmare for the NFL, as we all know there are all kinds of damaging emails sitting on some server(or backup).

 

3 hours ago, Rico said:

Yep. The server is probably already bleached.

 

Remember when we were all shown the Spygate tapes?

 

Yeah, me neither.

[Jerome007]

Remember the Asian woman that worked for the New York Times that had been calling for the death of all white people and numerous other racist threats on Twitter— she was never fired nor did she have to apologize. No, she doesn't work for the NFL - but it's the same sort of mob "justice" that is applied here. Yes, Gruden had no choice but to "resign" aka get fired. I never disputed that. He's an idiot. You just won't acknowledge that he will be basically shunned by all for life for this, and that my point is that his punishment is overkill, not that he has to get none. As again, where are the specific anti-Black and anti-women remarks? Fat lip? Calling someone a pu**y? If that's all it takes to be discarded and accused of all the "isms" and be smeared as a despicable man...

Edited October 14, 2021 by Jerome007

[Captain Hindsight]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But see, this isn't a legal thing.  You insult the wrong people to the wrong people, you lose their trust in you and your judgement. 

 

Gruden hasn't been "permanently banished", he's resigned - speaking of "overkill".  But a person doen't have a right to "regained trust".  Employment by a specific business or employer is not some kind of a "civil right"

Especially in the NFL. Its an exclusive club and Gruden just got kicked out

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Approve censorship if you want. I don't. These emails were so dumb my head hurts ha ha, but they were still made to be private, and while he does make antigay remarks, that's true, most of the other supposedly racists or antiwomen stuff is pouty mouth football/sports talk, stuff that's being going on forever just a few years back in sports, certainly in his days.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Jerome007 said:

 

 

Re-edit: if you fire him for being a pouty mouth, insulting the commissioner and very specific people, having made an anti-gay remark, all things that look bad and unprofessional for the Raiders organization he is head coach for, fine. But it goes way beyond, now he is accused of being a bigot, racist, misogynic, and all that crap. Sorry, but his track record and even his remarks don't point to that. Complete overkill, yet again, when it's these subject matters.

 

You tell 'em honey!  Man can't be fired for that pouty mouth---he was blessed with it!!

 

[DrDawkinstein]

44 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Remember the Asian woman that worked for the New York Times that had been calling for the death of all white people and numerous other racist threats on Twitter— she was never fired nor did she have to apologize. No, she doesn't work for the NFL - but it's the same sort of mob "justice" that is applied here. Yes, Gruden had no choice but to "resign" aka get fired. I never disputed that. He's an idiot. You just won't acknowledge that he will be basically shunned by all for life for this, and that my point is that his punishment is overkill, not that he has to get none. As again, where are the specific anti-Black and anti-women remarks? Fat lip? Calling someone a pu**y? If that's all it takes to be discarded and accused of all the "isms" and be smeared as a despicable man...

 

There was literally ZERO mob justice here.

 

Gruden was being allowed to keep his job after the first leak (so no mob justice getting him fired).

 

And then he resigned immediately following the 2nd leak, because he knew his relationships with the locker room and his bosses (owners and commish) had been damaged beyond repair.

 

Twitter had zero role in any of this. Any mob crying was ignored on the first leak, and never had a chance to even get started on the 2nd leak.

 

Sometimes accountability is real without your boogey man of "mob justice". Consequences, personal responsibility, and all that.

 

[Jerome007]

Keep missing my point. Which is NOT that he resigned or had been fired. How many times do I have to post this? It's that he is smeared way beyond what he wrote with all the racist, anti-women broad brush accusation, and thus no one in any big organisation will ever hire him again. That his punishment greatly exceeds his actions. But that too will pass over your head. 

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Keep missing my point. Which is NOT that he resigned or had been fired. How many times do I have to post this? It's that he is smeared way beyond what he wrote with all the racist, anti-women broad brush accusation, and thus no one in any big organisation will ever hire him again. That his punishment greatly exceeds his actions. But that too will pass over your head. 

Your point keeps changing as its shot down again and again.

1 hour ago, LeviF said:

 

 

Remember when we were all shown the Spygate tapes?

 

Yeah, me neither.

If the SpyGate tapes contained hours of Belichick rattling off his list of commissioners, owners, players, beat reporters, NFLPA leaders, and politicians that hes inviting to blow him then they just might have been fit for public consumption.

 

Thats how you know this was personal.  Goodell's MO is to protect the shield at all costs.

[DrDawkinstein]

9 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Keep missing my point. Which is NOT that he resigned or had been fired. How many times do I have to post this? It's that he is smeared way beyond what he wrote with all the racist, anti-women broad brush accusation, and thus no one in any big organisation will ever hire him again. That his punishment greatly exceeds his actions. But that too will pass over your head. 

 

Another boogey man to keep you scared and outraged when it doesnt actually exist.

 

You dont know that. You dont know that he'll never get another job anymore than I know he'll get another job. You are just jumping to that conclusion because you think it makes your argument stronger. When it's really just a guess at the future.

 

Additionally, even if your guess is right and he never works again... oh, boo hoo, how will he live on his pile of ~$50M he is already sitting on? I'll take a "punishment" of never working again if you give me a $50M fallback plan.

 

You're trying awfully hard to be outraged here. You fit right in on Twitter.

[Jerome007]

Keep your heads in the sand. Anyway, I can't really write what I want as I'll be banned. And you talk of another echo chamber that I'd fit in that censors even more? Ha ha. I thought this was a Bills fan forum, not we had to think a certain way but I've known better for a while now.

 

I don't care abut Gruden but about all the reasons why it's happening. And anyone with a tiny brain can see this is an hatchet job against him. They leaked one thing, it wasn't enough so they leaked more. Now he resigned. And not one tiny bit of any other emails of his or anyone on the WFT or communicating with them are mentioned. Sure. Nothing to see here. He is a RACIST because that's what the media now say, and there is nothing more to the story. Ban him. Cue Randy Moss crying. I'm out. Flame all you want now in all your righteous moral superiority.

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

 Anyway, I can't really write what I want as I'll be banned.

 

Love how you think that is an indictment on everyone else but yourself.

[Just in Atlanta]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:51 PM, Just in Atlanta said:

Our new official pastime:

 

Collective finger wagging over perceived racial/ethnic/sexist comments to make ourselves feel morally superior. That warm dopamine thrill of woke validation is so inviting. 

 

The vitriol on this board over a stupid email about a guy’s lips 10 years ago? Jesus H. With all the problems in this world.
 

Let’s just go through everyone’s 10 year old emails here - or posts- and see what we dig up so we can collectively scold you.

 

 

 

 

Woke vapidness aside, and there's a lot of it goin 'round, given the new info released after this, it's impossible now to keep the guy. He had to go, if for the very least of insulting the boss but also for insulting an entire collection of people. If any of us had been found out for saying things like that at work, we'd be fired. Not a good look for him or the NFL.