report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Well…, in that it would go hand in hand with his current portfolio of investments in Buffalo…, not hard to fathom, 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Oh are you thinking that Terry would own the land/stadium?

 

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Yup, Last game I went to, it took 45 plus minutes to get to the highway, and frankly, that’s pretty normal for a large sporting event, OP is a cluster Fuh k of cars with a high percentage  of “legally” inebriated people driving those cars after a game, as Augie said, let’s not pretend it’s something other than what it is…, 👍

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Where did you park?

 

.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Einstein

[Buffalo716]

26 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

I was at Heinz Field in Pittsburgh recently, and I didn't see any WOW! factor in that facility. It looked kinda cheesy, actually.

(Cinder Block Walls???)

Watch out for the "lowest bidder syndrome", when a lot Govt. money is involved. Look no further than the $140M 'Ralph' Stadium 'upgrade', as to how poorly that money may be spent.

As always, be careful what you wish for.

Andddd the kicker ... That downtown stadium did nothing for the economy of Pitt 

 

I was there 2 weeks ago mid day downtown and there was nothing open!! Mostly everything was closed!

 

 

[LeGOATski]

24 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

I was at Heinz Field in Pittsburgh recently, and I didn't see any WOW! factor in that facility. It looked kinda cheesy, actually.

(Cinder Block Walls???)

Watch out for the "lowest bidder syndrome", when a lot Govt. money is involved. Look no further than the $140M 'Ralph' Stadium 'upgrade', as to how poorly that money may be spent.

As always, be careful what you wish for.

Agree, ugh. Kinda makes me worry.

 

The last 3 stadiums built have been wonders (Atl, Minn, and LA I think) and all were majority private financing.

 

I forgot Raiders... also majority private financing

[Einstein]

6 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The big buck stadiums are awesome, but if Bills fans think they are going to get a first rate facility, for $1.4B, they've got another thing coming. We are getting a new stadium 'on the cheap' regardless of how it is funded.

 

Raiders stadium was “only” $1.9B.

 

And it is beautiful.

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

I was at the Rolling Stones (geriatric) 🙂 performance, and I took note of the construction, and amenities @ Heinz. I would judge it as a lateral move from 'The Ralph', in terms of quality, and sight lines.  It's is safe to say, that I was underwhelmed. I have no idea as to what was spent to build that facility, but my impression, is that it 'wasn't much'.

I was there too ! Actually 3 weeks ago (time flies)

 

Go bills ! 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Buffalo716

[LeGOATski]

Just now, BUFFALOBART said:

The big buck stadiums are awesome, but if Bills fans think they are going to get a first rate facility, for $1.4B, they've got another thing coming. We are getting a new stadium 'on the cheap' regardless of how it is funded.

I assume this is because of cost of land? I mean, Minn was $1.1 bil, Raiders 1.9, Falcons 1.5..... LA has been the only real outlier for cost.

 

$1.4 bil is not cheap. We should expect it to be first rate, and moreso if it is majority private funding.

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Raiders are @ $1.9, but they have back door income to foot that Bill, like this Suite for one game only: https://www.suiteexperiencegroup.com/all-suites/nfl/las-vegas-raiders/Las-Vegas-Raiders-vs-Kansas-City-Chiefs-60067/774263/

It is much easier for private funding to Amortize the $1.9, when you have that going on. Otherwise, it will fall on the 'lunchbox' attendees...

I don't think this has any bearing on the quality they'd strive for in the building. 

[That's No Moon]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Andddd the kicker ... That downtown stadium did nothing for the economy of Pitt 

 

I was there 2 weeks ago mid day downtown and there was nothing open!! Mostly everything was closed!

 

 

The stadium was already in that location, they just shifted parking lots. Since the stadium had already been in that location for more than 30 years I'm not sure what new development you are looking for. The place where Three Rivers was now has an office building with two corporate headquarters and the local cable sports network in it though. In terms of doing "nothing" the downtown hotels I'm sure appreciate the minimum 8 weekends of bookings. The parking revenue is taxed, the hotels are taxed, the people who come into the city for the weekend spend money. Is it some sort of magic bullet of development? No. But it's not nothing. The baseball stadium is the same way and it's unfortunate that the team is so bad because that drives people downtown a lot as well when they are good. 

 

Heinz Field also wasn't very expensive when it was built either. It cost an inflation adjusted 450 million dollars. It is essentially what lots of people here say they want. A basic place to go watch football with good sightlines and not tons of fluff. It preserves tailgating and the traditions the Steelers fans have and generally people are happy with it.  Lincoln Financial in Philly is very similar and cost a very similar amount and is a fine place to watch a game without being JerruhWorld.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

The big buck stadiums are awesome, but if Bills fans think they are going to get a first rate facility, for $1.4B, they've got another thing coming. We are getting a new stadium 'on the cheap' regardless of how it is funded.

Because Bills fans also want tickets to be the cheapest in the league, pay a minimal amount for a PSL and preferably none at all, and drink all their alcohol in the parking lot. I'll be amazed if there isn't someone at the public hearing that demands the stadium accept green stamps.

[SirAndrew]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:11 PM, Augie said:

 

You must have a helicopter. I was 12 cars back trying to get into Hammers lot for the opener at 7:12am. At 7:35 we were still 3 cars back when someone intervened by walking into the road and stopping traffic. It took us more than 20 minutes to go about 50 feet.

 

AGAIN, I don’t care where the stadium goes as long as it remains in WNY. But let’s not pretend we don’t have a traffic issue with the lots in OP.  

I don’t want to sound like the egoistical person that tells people to get out more, but sometimes comparing things is the only way to prove a point. People who think traffic flows smoothly in OP strike me as those who haven’t attended events elsewhere. That’s fine, I’m not picking on anyone, but the traffic in OP is worse than average for an NFL venue. 

[Buffalo716]

31 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I don’t want to sound like the egoistical person that tells people to get out more, but sometimes comparing things is the only way to prove a point. People who think traffic flows smoothly in OP strike me as those who haven’t attended events elsewhere. That’s fine, I’m not picking on anyone, but the traffic in OP is worse than average for an NFL venue. 

And downtown traffic would be much much worse

 

20,000 for sabers games is a nightmare... Now have 70,000

[purple haze]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

And downtown traffic would be much much worse

 

20,000 for sabers games is a nightmare... Now have 70,000

If it goes downtown it will be along with infrastructure additions/changes. Don’t judge the potential based on what exists down there now.  

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, purple haze said:

If it goes downtown it will be along with infrastructure additions/changes. Don’t judge the potential based on what exists down there now.  

That's exactly why it's not going downtown

 

The states not paying for a 1.5 billion dollar stadium and then another that in infrastructure

 

It's in place in orchard Park

Edited October 25, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Patience]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

That's exactly why it's not going downtown

 

The states not paying for a 1.5 billion dollar stadium and then another that in infrastructure

 

It's in place in orchard Park

 

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/sports/buffalo-bills/sen-schumer-federal-money-can-be-used-for-new-bills-stadium-project/

 

Doesn't necessarily have to be all NYS money for the infrastructure part.  

[That's No Moon]

15 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

And downtown traffic would be much much worse

 

20,000 for sabers games is a nightmare... Now have 70,000

The problem for Sabres games is where the arena is located downtown, not that it's downtown. It's in a place where two of the directions to get out are blocked by geography and one of the big roads that should be available is closed because of the train. The place they are discussing for a football stadium does not have that issue to nearly the same degree. They would need to rework some of the 190 access and, if they are smart, make Elm and Oak cross the 190 instead of stopping at it. That will help Sabres and Bills traffic both.

 

You could use the 190 in either direction, Ohio St. To go south, south park Ave to go southeast. If they connect oak and elm as I suggested you could take Elm to the Kensington, you could take Hamburg to Jefferson also to the Kensington or Broadway, or Sycamore, or William St. There is plenty of road infrastructure available to absorb that traffic and yeah, you might drive through the East Side for a minute and see some things you don't want to see, you'll be fine.

 

IMO traffic flow at events and stadiums is rarely about the roads and more about the number of police at the event to direct traffic. The more cops directing traffic and controlling lights the better everything works. Unsurprisingly this is also the area where teams try to cheap out and get the minimum.

[purple haze]

13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

That's exactly why it's not going downtown

 

The states not paying for a 1.5 billion dollar stadium and then another that in infrastructure

 

It's in place in orchard Park

The odds are on Orchard Park, but I think the state might actually shock us for once.  The fact downtown keeps coming up, Schumer talking about federal money, etc. is interesting. 
 

The state/county could have hopped on the 1.4 Billion request and called it a day.  Now the acting Governor is talking about a new state study being done when the state completed one years ago.  Seems they’re trying to find a way to go downtown if possible, but a lot of moving parts and money to that.
 

The old Buffalo mentality, i.e. resist change, why we can’t do it, do what’s easiest, live in the past, will see us with a really nice new joint in OP.  OP is cool.  I grew up going out there.  The rock pile was before my time.  A new mentality, i.e., swing big, make it work, on to the future, will see us with a really nice new joint downtown, along with new/expanded roads and rail service (most likely) which benefits the city outside football season.  Either way, I’ll make my yearly pilgrimage to be where the Bills are.
 

  

[Rochesterfan]

On 10/21/2021 at 11:50 PM, Augie said:

 

After Nashville last weekend, I have to say I realized how much I LOVED the option of hotels and bars in walking distance. I had been to games there multiple times, but this thread reminds me of how different it could be. Not saying better or worse, just different. I don’t like the whole drinking, driving and parking aspect that requires planning for games in remote areas. Nothing is perfect, but Nashville handled it with ease with packed hotels and bars downtown. It was a blast, once again! 

 

People often fear change, but change can be good. Games in OP are GREAT, but there are other types of experiences that can also be great. People should be open minded, in all ways. 

 

This is exactly the point.  We read over and over last week about the “Bills takeover” - thousands of fans hitting bars and hotels around the stadium for 3 straight days.  Concerts and live music and drinking and food and then a walk to the stadium.

 

Watch the game and if we had won - they would have walked back downtown and drank and partied more and then back to the hotel.

 

There was tailgating, but in a totally different way and it was an amazing time.  It should be the experience we are trying to build and support.  Local breweries, restaurants, bars, and hotels all along the downtown corridor and use them to enhance an experience.

 

Orchard Park has nothing around the stadium and therefore the experience is dependent on what is brought from outside. 
 

 

[Rochesterfan]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:12 AM, Einstein said:

 

This feels like a bit of “the grass is greener on the other side”. I say that because Titan fans hate their stadium being downtown. It is a consistent gripe on the Titans message board.

 

Among other things, parking sucks and traffic leaving the stadium is horrendous. You likely didn’t have to deal with it because you’re a tourist and can simply walk back to the hotel. Locals don’t want to walk back to a hotel or a bar after the game. They want to go home.

 

They’re currently trying to pass legislation that will add another 100+ acres to the stadium complex which would include more parking, hotels, etc to make the stadium more viable.

 

Summary: The Titan experience is nice for tourists, bad for locals. And Buffalo isn’t exactly a top tourist attraction.

 

The family I have in Tennessee love the Stadium.  They drive in from the Southeast and pretty much get in and out. 
 

My understanding talking to them is they like it because having it downtown limits the number of visitors cars and traffic was fine.

 

We went to a Bills game when they came up a few years ago and the traffic in OP was terrible.  Getting in and out from the south was difficult and slow.

 

I think it depends upon the goals and what you want.  The game day experience is changing and the money is being spent - get the biggest bang for your buck that you can.  
 

To me the biggest bang with the biggest buck is downtown.  
 

The smallest bang is a new stadium in OP.

 

The wildcard is doing something with UB either downtown or in Amherst and getting 2 Bangs for the buck and what the cost of that is.

 

 

[BillStime]

17 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

This is exactly the point.  We read over and over last week about the “Bills takeover” - thousands of fans hitting bars and hotels around the stadium for 3 straight days.  Concerts and live music and drinking and food and then a walk to the stadium.

 

Watch the game and if we had won - they would have walked back downtown and drank and partied more and then back to the hotel.

 

There was tailgating, but in a totally different way and it was an amazing time.  It should be the experience we are trying to build and support.  Local breweries, restaurants, bars, and hotels all along the downtown corridor and use them to enhance an experience.

 

Orchard Park has nothing around the stadium and therefore the experience is dependent on what is brought from outside. 
 

 

 

We were told by the resident experts here that a downtown stadium will have ZERO economic impact. They even pointed to specific studies that said so... Ignore what you saw and heard in Tennessee.

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

It might be easier to get federal funds along with state funds if the project is seen as more than just a football stadium.

 

 

[May Day 10]

30 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

We were told by the resident experts here that a downtown stadium will have ZERO economic impact. They even pointed to specific studies that said so... Ignore what you saw and heard in Tennessee.

 

 

 

What do those bars and restaurants do during those some-355 days there arent Bills games?..... Fine, add in a monster truck rally and a Gunz and Roses concert.  If we are talking an MLB ballpark or even a state of the art brick and mortar amphitheater, I would be more behind it as you can count on many dates that could sustain business and create a 'district'.

 

The stadium downtown is cart before the horse.  We need true economic development downtown by the way of multiple fortune 500 companies anchoring there along with many residents within the city-proper.  

 

Nashville is a booming attractive city, with 6 fortune 500 companies and a lively entertainment culture.   It is already an attractive destination for travelers, with or without a football stadium.

 

Buffalo has 1 fortune 500 company in M&T.

 

Until Buffalo gets more commerce downtown... everything else is just window dressing to try to attract people from the suburbs sometimes.  Then they leave.

Edited October 25, 2021 by May Day 10