Raiders vs Chargers MNF Game thread

[CapeBreton]

Pretty easy to say this now but what was Miami thinking drafting Tua? Obviously the fans were dying for Tua so they gave them what they wanted but Tua has a weak arm and serious durability issues but they still took him over Herbert who has amazing traits but wasn’t labeled as a leader. Anyways I’m just glad Herbert is not in our division. 

[QCity]

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

[Big Blitz]

17 minutes ago, QCity said:

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

 

 

 

Trying to think of a rookie QB that walked into a better situation that started essentially day 1.

 

Can't.  

[billsbackto81]

27 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

By all means, feel free to compare them this year. 

 

I'll also state again as I already have....im completely happy with Allen thus far, I just think Herbert is better. 

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

[QCity]

6 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Trying to think of a rookie QB that walked into a better situation that started essentially day 1.

 

Can't.  

 

Yeah, that's just a ridiculous statement. Again, he wasn't even supposed to start. Anthony Lynn was his coach and you wouldn't even know who his OC was without Goolging it (the great Shane Steichen). 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, QCity said:

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

What makes you say Herbert isn't at Allen's level? Josh's legs are better but other than that I think it's pretty close. Both are outstanding young qbs.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

I think you are confusing and mudding the arguments. Yes, Herbert went into a better situation than Josh and others. Still that doesn't mitigant his talent or performance. It's not far to use the talent around him as an excuse that lessens his talent. I see Herbert as very close to Allen's level. He was very good against the Chiefs and the Raiders. Make some great reads and throws, stayed cool in the pocket, make some big 4th down conversions, and looked like a leader with great confidence. 

[billsbackto81]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think you are confusing and mudding the arguments. Yes, Herbert went into a better situation than Josh and others. Still that doesn't mitigant his talent or performance. It's not far to use the talent around him as an excuse that lessens his talent. I see Herbert as very close to Allen's level. He was very good against the Chiefs and the Raiders. Make some great reads and throws, stayed cool in the pocket, make some big 4th down conversions, and looked like a leader with great confidence. 

You're right in the sense that if the individual has talent it will be evident regardless of the presence of talent or lack thereof. But I do feel you're mistaken if you think that not having quality players around you won't accelerate your development as a QB. How's Sam Darnold doing now that he's on a squad with good skill players on both sides of the ball? He looks like a totally different player now that he's off that dumpster fire of a team in New Jersey. How do think Herbert would be doing on the Jets? I'm sure he'd show glimpses of promise, but success? Doubt it.

 

Herbert is very good and at this stage and it's fair to say he's farther along than Allen was in his 2nd year. He also has the benefit the Bills had last year as an under the radar team that no one took seriously until they snuck up on everybody. I'm not stamping "Elite" status upon him until he makes the post season and wins a couple games. His arrow is definitely pointing up though. 👍 Glad he's not in the AFCE.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

You're right in the sense that if the individual has talent it will be evident regardless of the presence of talent or lack thereof. But I do feel you're mistaken if you think that not having quality players around you won't accelerate your development as a QB. How's Sam Darnold doing now that he's on a squad with good skill players on both sides of the ball? He looks like a totally different player now that he's off that dumpster fire of a team in New Jersey. How do think Herbert would be doing on the Jets? I'm sure he'd show glimpses of promise, but success? Doubt it.

 

Herbert is very good and at this stage and it's fair to say he's farther along than Allen was in his 2nd year. He also has the benefit the Bills had last year as an under the radar team that no one took seriously until they snuck up on everybody. I'm not stamping "Elite" status upon him until he makes the post season and wins a couple games. His arrow is definitely pointing up though. 👍 Glad he's not in the AFCE.

Good response. 👍

[newcam2012]

No doubt team talent can help or hurt a Qbs development. You have cited valid examples. However, a mediocre QB with a very talented team will never be elite or a franchise QB. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make. Herbert looks elite but its too early for me to declare it. 

[gobills404]

 

[cd1]

4 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

Also -  How many of the above started college ball at the Community College level ( ie an extreme deficit in quality team and COACHING )?

 

All of these players did not start the race at the same starting line.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Yeah, that's just a ridiculous statement. Again, he wasn't even supposed to start. Anthony Lynn was his coach and you wouldn't even know who his OC was without Goolging it (the great Shane Steichen). 

 

And last year they had zero, and I mean zero, offensive line. Indeed my concern with Herbert last year was that he would learn bad mechanical habits in an effort to overcome the total lack of protection he was being offered. 

[GunnerBill]

Tuesday morning reflections:

 

- I have been pretty sure that the AFC Superbowl contenders came down to Kansas City, Buffalo and Cleveland, but I am really close to adding the Chargers to that list. And it is not just because of Justin Herbert. It is because of that defense. Man they are fast and aggressive. Brandon Staley is one of the best young defensive minds in the game;

 

- Herbert is a really talented Quarterback and he was efficient last night but some of the hype I have read this morning is a bit over top. He dinked and dunked efficiently, he made good reads and he had three touchdown tosses - the one to Cook particularly impressive, but he had some misses on plays that were there down the field too. He has had more impressive games than this one for sure;

 

- You know where you win football games? In the trenches. LAC knew their offensive line was a problem in 2020. The upgrades are paying dividends in both the passing game and the running game;

 

- I think it is mainly on play calling, but it might also be a bit of Carr's reads at the line, but why, oh why do the Raiders only ever throw down the field when it becomes an absolute necessity? I raised this after the Ravens game too when they didn't get Ruggs or Edwards involved until the final 2 minutes of regulation. The first half everything was short and it allowed the Chargers to creep up. I know the protection wasn't great but you still have to occasionally threaten over the top otherwise you become so simple to defend against. Why draft Henry Ruggs and then fail to use him? Once they started to get him involved they came into the game and some underneath stuff opened up for Waller and Jacobs;

 

- Jon Gruden's reign with the Raiders has not been the tire fire some predicted. They are one game over .500 since the start of 2019 but these clunkers that they throw in where the whole team just looks overmatched for a half or even a full game are killers. Yesterday reminded me of their beatdown in Atlanta last year and there are just too many of these days. I have to believe some of that is on coaching. Too often they just look unprepared to play.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by GunnerBill

[dollars 2 donuts]

5 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

… I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

 

Tua

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by dollars 2 donuts

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Lol, you people are hilarious. 

 

God forbid you acknowledge the quality Qb play from the team in the thread specifically designed to talk about it. 

 

You must hate Allen if you think another Qb is better...lmao. 

 

Not enough to love our quarterback. We must run every other quarterback in the league down. No idea where the desire to do this comes from. 

 

I disagree with you about Herbert being better than Allen by the way, but I agree this board has an obsession with tearing other quarterbacks down even when they are good. 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

 

Easily the best? I dunno. Joe Burrow is pretty darn good. And the situation he walked into was definitely comparable with Allen's if not worse. And because the Bengals are idiots they still can't protect him. Herbert is the #1 from that class so far, but when you consider the context around them (which I agree you have to when comparing Allen and Burrow to guys who got drafted in better spots) I think Burrow is a pretty close second. I just fear for Burrow because Cincy is Cincy. But had he been drafted by the Chargers I think he could be matching Herbert right now. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by GunnerBill

[BananaB]

8 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (2020)

PFWA All-Rookie Team (2020)

William V. Campbell Trophy (2019)

2020 Senior Bowl MVP

2020 Rose Bowl Offensive MVP

3x Academic All-American (2017–2019)[1]

NFL records

Most total TDs by a rookie quarterback: 36

Most passing TDs by a rookie quarterback: 31

Most completions by a rookie quarterback: 396

Most 300-yard games by a rookie quarterback: 8

 

 

Yea, he is. 

Two different situations. Not saying Allen would match those stats if he had the luxury of going to a similar situation, he wouldn’t he was by far way more raw coming out of college. 
Throwing to Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin behind a terrible oline is a bit different then Kennan Allen, Mike Williams and Hunter Henry. 
 

To be honest I haven’t  seen much improvement from Hebert first game to his last. Which could be a factor down the line when players start changing. When he signs a big contract and they gotta make cuts and manage the budget better. 
 

I’ll take Allen, despite the talent around him he has proven to make the players around better. Jay Jones, John Brown, Robert foster, Beasley and Diggs all have had the best year of their career with him throwing them the ball. We have also seen major improvements from year to year in his play. Pocket presence, accuracy and decisions. Sky is still the limit for this guy.

 

You drool about all the rookie records though, Cleveland did the same a few years ago

Edited October 5, 2021 by BananaB

[JMF2006]

Not to take anything away from this fine young QB...But.....

 

I think Herbert has had a way better supporting cast for his first two years than Josh had.

 

 In year three the Bills finally got Josh a true #1 receiver and a half decent line.

 

Its nice that the league is getting a good influx of young talented QB's it was much needed with Both Mannings gone along with Brees and sooner rather than later Brady ,Ryan and Rodgers.

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Easily the best? I dunno. Joe Burrow is pretty darn good. And the situation he walked into was definitely comparable with Allen's if not worse. And because the Bengals are idiots they still can't protect him. Herbert is the #1 from that class so far, but when you consider the context around them (which I agree you have to when comparing Allen and Burrow to guys who got drafted in better spots) I think Burrow is a pretty close second. I just fear for Burrow because Cincy is Cincy. But had he been drafted by the Chargers I think he could be matching Herbert right now. 

Fair point GB. Burrow may end up like David Carr if Cincy doesn't step up and get him protected. Herbert just looks the part granted surrounded with more skill. Herbert like Josh just look built for the long haul. Durability is critical for today's QB and though Burrow isn't slight by any measure but he'll be up against it,  kinda like Tua and Miami's O line. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by billsbackto81