The Edmunds Report - Week 3, WTF's v. Bills, 09/26/21

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What, 32 more places where the only opinion allowed is their opinion and if you disagree they block you? Yea we need more of that. 

Did they really block you?  

[GunnerBill]

45 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

What is this allowed thing?  I find them to be juvenile in their actions and therefore not particularly trustworthy in the information they put out, they admit to putting out misinformation just to bust peoples balls, how is that what a professional organization does?  

 

My post was about Cover 1. Let's say me and the founder had a debate when he used to post on these boards. I was not rude, I was not disrespectful, I just disagreed with his opinion and he blocked me. Even worse history proved me right on that point. Cover 1 do some decent stuff but it is all pretty subjective and they are not up for honest and open debate about whether the way they are interpreting something is the right way to interpret it. 

40 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Did they really block you?  

 

Erik did, yea.

[Don Otreply]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My post was about Cover 1. Let's say me and the founder had a debate when he used to post on these boards. I was not rude, I was not disrespectful, I just disagreed with his opinion and he blocked me. Even worse history proved me right on that point. Cover 1 do some decent stuff but it is all pretty subjective and they are not up for honest and open debate about whether the way they are interpreting something is the right way to interpret it. 

 

Erik did, yea.

I see, my point was of course pff, one always needs to be able to read between the lines / filter out what is not relevant when reading or viewing such reviews or stat compilations, in which that humans are doing it, and will always have some bias or another, some outfits through their behavior are relegated to a lower position when considering their information as it were… 

 

I of course did not know  Eric blocked you.  Your posts are regularly well thought out and informative, ( whether I agree with them or not 😁) it then requires thought when responding, and that takes energy, that some folk just don’t have or don’t want to put out. 

 

Go Bills!!!

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My post was about Cover 1. Let's say me and the founder had a debate when he used to post on these boards. I was not rude, I was not disrespectful, I just disagreed with his opinion and he blocked me. Even worse history proved me right on that point. Cover 1 do some decent stuff but it is all pretty subjective and they are not up for honest and open debate about whether the way they are interpreting something is the right way to interpret it. 

 

Erik did, yea.

Geez.  Just for making comments that opposed his views?  

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Geez.  Just for making comments that opposed his views?  

 

We had a bit if back and forth about it and I think he got frustrated that I was still arguing the point and wouldn't just say "okay you must be right" and he blocked me, yep.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Cover 1 do some decent stuff but it is all pretty subjective and they are not up for honest and open debate about whether the way they are interpreting something is the right way to interpret it. 

 

 

This is how I feel as well.   They tend to take a glass 3/4 full approach to a lot of things Bills and I can see where that serves the model..........homers subscribe to read about the positive and at worst, the hope.

 

But Cover 1 do tend to go out of their way to try to re-inforce their prior questionable takes.    The recent one discussed here regarding Edmunds "creating" the Poyer interception against Washington is a good example.  Routine play........room to have played it better.........but when you've been selling "high impact" and there aren't plays to show for it, you've gotta' sell greatness in the routine.

 

Erik's take on what Star Lotulelei was going to bring to the Bills after he was signed was illustrated with a few plays that he pulled from Carolina tape..........one was a play where Lotulelei basically just stayed upright and Kuechly made a great, but fairly routine for him, TFL.    Another was a "triple team" where the OL clearly made a mistake in protection that he was selling as him commanding 3 blockers.   I get why it fits the business model but it's not accurate or even realistic at times.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This is how I feel as well.   They tend to take a glass 3/4 full approach to a lot of things Bills and I can see where that serves the model..........homers subscribe to read about the positive and at worst, the hope.

 

But Cover 1 do tend to go out of their way to try to re-inforce their prior questionable takes.    The recent one discussed here regarding Edmunds "creating" the Poyer interception against Washington is a good example.  Routine play........room to have played it better.........but when you've been selling "high impact" and there aren't plays to show for it, you've gotta' sell greatness in the routine.

 

Erik's take on what Star Lotulelei was going to bring to the Bills after he was signed was illustrated with a few plays that he pulled from Carolina tape..........one was a play where Lotulelei basically just stayed upright and Kuechly made a great, but fairly routine for him, TFL.    Another was a "triple team" where the OL clearly made a mistake in protection that he was selling as him commanding 3 blockers.   I get why it fits the business model but it's not accurate or even realistic at times.

 

 

Agree and I get that. Their model requires them to always take the positive stance. But then when you come to a place where guys understand football and you ain't even willing to have a good natured debate about whether there is an alternative possibility without taking your ball home in a strop that is a bad look... might be why he stopped posting.

Edited September 30, 2021 by GunnerBill

[GoBills808]

And yet some of us ahem were trying to explain how Lotulelei functions from the get go in this defense

 

so we can be fairly confident the arc of Edmunds' rhetorical trajectory will follow a similar path

[Dopey]

He's not a Hall of Famer. Get over it. Oh, never mind, we ALWAYS need a whipping boy. Don't we? Star proves you wrong, find someone else. Zay is still in the NFL, Duke is... well, you know. If we had hall of famers throughout the entire roster, some would still need a whipping boy to call out. Makes them feel better about themselves? I don't know.

I for one an enjoying the past couple of seasons. 

On 9/27/2021 at 10:06 PM, Freddie's Dead said:

Since Edmunds is still getting so much hate, I'm going to do this weekly.  The PIT game convinced me that much of the Edmunds hate is undeserved, but I want to see if I'm missing anything.  I'll use the same point system -1, 0, +1, and keep a running total.  I'll ignore plays where he's not involved and only look at coverage if he's onscreen (I don't have the All-22).  I'll also flag plays for the haterz so they can skip the rest.  Let's go to the tape.

 

WTF 1st possession

1st and 10, WTF 21.  Run off RT, TE overruns the hole, blocked out (HATERZ PLAY), 9 yard gain (-1,-1)

3rd and 2, WTF 29.  McKissic comes out, throws a pick on TE, draws the OPI after first down by McLaurin (+1,0)

3rd and 12, WTF 19.  TE covers Logan Thomas in flat, makes tackle 1 yard short of first down (+1,+1)

 

WTF 2nd possession

3rd and 8, WTF 37.  TE blitzes, but peels off to cover RB in the flat, Muffler goes to Logan Thomas, fumble (+1,+2)

 

WTF 3rd possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  TE blitzes, doesn't get there, 10 yard reception (0,+2)

1st and 10, WTF 35.  Run, TE blocked at point of attack, 4 yard gain (0,+2)

2nd and 6, WTF 39.  TE drops into coverage on the right, Muffler throws left, Poyer INT (0,+2)

 

WTF 4th possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  TE calls a line shift, Gibson up the gut, stuffed by TE in the hole for 2 yards (+1,+3)

2nd and 8, WTF 27.  TE drops into coverage, screen to Gibson, TE blocked 11 yards downfield by 79 (HATERZ PLAY), turns to chase Gibson, runs into a pile of people (-1,+2) You know the rest, complete Bills D collapse, 73 yard TD

 

WTF 5th possession

1st and 10, BUF 24.  WR end around, TE blocked backward at point of attack, 7 yard gain (-1,+1)

2nd and 3, BUF 17.  Gibson sweep, TE pursues down line, Poyer 1 yard TFL (0,+1)

3rd and 4, BUF 18.  TE drops into short zone, covers 13, then slides to 17, Logan Thomas settles in seam behind TE, 15 yard completion (0,+1)

2nd and goal, BUF 3.  TE drops into coverage, Muffler takes off and beats everyone to the pylon (0,+1) 

 

WTF 6th possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  TE drops into coverage, Muffler chased OB, 1 yard gain (0,+1)

2nd and 9, WTF 26.  TE drops into coverage, Gibson sweep TFL by Cookie (0,+1)

3rd and 10, WTF 25.  TE drops into coverage, Muffler complete to 13, TE WITH THE STUFF, laying the lumber on 13, 3 yards short of 1st down (+1,+2)

 

WTF 7th possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  TE drops, McKissic run, TE blocked 5 yards downfield (HATERZ PLAY), 10 yards, 1st down (-1,+1)

1st and 10, WTF 35.  TE drops into coverage on Logan Thomas, Muffler throws it, Thomas tips it, Taron Johnson INT.  Did not see the holding call on TE, which was declined, looked like he had good coverage otherwise (0,+1)

1st and 10, WTF 41.  TE covers McKissic in the flat, Muffler throws to McKissic, 4 yard gain (0,+1)

 

1st half observations:

 

1.  Up and down half for TE.

2.  I flagged three HATERZ PLAYs that the haterz will use to talk down TE.

3.  Neither Rapelisberger nor Muffler threw much TE's way in coverage.  Those who keep saying that TE is terrible in coverage need to show us some tape, 'cause I'm not seeing it.

 

WTF 8th Possession

1st and 10, WTF 40.  TE on a delayed blitz, Muffler with 1st down completion to McLaurin (0,+1)

1st and 10, BUF 45.  McKissic run, TE sets edge, McK cuts inside, 5 yard run (0,+1)

2nd and 5, BUF 40.  Jet sweep, TE chases down the line, cleans up the 5 yard TFL with Hyde (+1,+2) 

3rd and 10, BUF 45.  TE in coverage on Logan Thomas, Muffler throws incomplete to WR left (+1,+3)

 

WTF 9th possession

1st and 15, WTF 5.  Gibson run, TE sheds a block, dives for the tackle but Gibson fakes him out his jockstrap (HATERZ PLAY, but can't lie, TE looked stupid on this one), 7 yard gain (-1,+2)

2nd and 8, WTF 12.  TE drops, Muffler goes past LOS and throws, illegal forward pass, loss of down (+1,+3)

3rd and 13, WTF 7.  TE drops, Muffler throws his way, and Hyde makes the pick.  It looks like TE baited him into the INT, something I saw another poster complain about, that TE never "baits" the QB.  Sure looks like he did there (+1,+4)

 

WTF 10th possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  TE washed out a bit, 3 yard run gain (0,+4)

 

WTF 11th possession

1st and 10, WTF 1.  TE piles into line, 1 yard run (0,+4)

2nd and 9, WTF 2.  TE drops, Muffler does not throw his way yet again, dropped pass (0,+4)

3rd and 9, WTF 2.  TE drops, Muffler hits McKissic on safety valve, jukes TE for first down (HATERZ PLAY, but agree, TE needs to make that tackle short of the sticks) (-1,+3)

1st and 10, WTF 14.  TE drops, Muffler pulls it down and scrambles for 7 (0,+3)

2nd and 3, WTF 21.  Muffler with the play action, throws and TREMAINE EDMUNDS, WITH THE REJECTION! (in my best Marv Albert)  Great play by TE, Muffler caught the rejection, and TE cleaned up with a 1 yard TFL (+1,+4)

3rd and 5, WTF 20.  TE drops, Muffler pulls it down after finding no one open, and dives short of 1st down (0,+4)

4th and 1, WTF 24.  TE plugs up the middle, and Cookie cleans Muffler's clock (+1,+5)

 

WTF 12th possession

1st and 10, WTF 25.  Gibson off-tackle, TE sheds blocks and makes the tackle, 7 yard gain (HATERZ PLAY) (0,+5)

2nd and 3, WTF 32.  Gibson up the gut, TE sheds a block, completely whiffs on the tackle (HATERZ PLAY, but again, TE looked stupid on this one) 1st down run (-1,+4)

2nd and 13, WTF 35.  TE covers Logan again, makes tackle after completion to other receiver (0,+4)

1st and 10, BUF 44.  TE drops, Muffler throws to McLaurin, TE misses the tackle (-1,+3)

 

Conclusions

1.  Edmunds is a good MLB, not great.  The Bills will re-sign him if the price is right.

2.  His coverage skills are excellent.  They rarely throw his way, and when they do, he usually makes the tackle for minimal gain.

3.  The haterz had more fodder with today's game, because there were two plays I saw where TE looked completely stupid.  I didn't see that against PIT.

4.  I thought TE had a better game against the Squeelers than he did against the WTF's.  My grades for TE so far:

 

Squeelers - B+

WTF's - B- 

 

For the haterz, I get it, I was with you.  You see one or two plays that look bad, and you extrapolate to TE's entire body of work.  The best example is coverage skills.  I see the complaints, but outside a TE seam route against PIT, TE is solid in coverage.  If you have examples that prove that wrong, please post.  For now, I'm looking forward to seeing TE get better.  

Star says "HELLO?!?!?" 

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree and I get that. Their model requires them to always take the positive stance. But then when you come to a place where guys understand football and you ain't even willing to have a good natured debate about whether there is an alternative possibility without taking your ball home in a strop that is a bad look... might be why he stopped posting.

Probably stopped posting cause they are so busy.  They have done very well.  If peeps wanna say its homerism, then they got into the biz with homerism at the right time.  I thought they were critical of Josh in their film analysis while pointing out some of his good stuff.  

 

Overall, I think cover 1 has been great and I enjoy their content.  Maybe they seem like homers cause this board is hilariously pessimistic (see threads/posts on Allen regression, allen cant play in wind, allen cant play in front of crowds, tremaine edmunds is bad at MLB).  If youre gonna deal with that stuff might as well just do it on twitter where its more visible.  They have been highly regarded by the other thoughtful content creators like Joe Marino and Bruce Nolan.  I dont think either of those guys are homers, and they seem to be able to have discussions/disagreements.  They are able to get guests from other teams every week, and I dont think they could do that if were the homers that didnt understand football.

[Freddie's Dead]

Hey, as much as I like a good debate on the merits of PFF vs. Cover1, start your own thread.  It's time to get back to questioning my objectivity. 🤪

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Probably stopped posting cause they are so busy.  They have done very well.  If peeps wanna say its homerism, then they got into the biz with homerism at the right time.  I thought they were critical of Josh in their film analysis while pointing out some of his good stuff.  

 

Overall, I think cover 1 has been great and I enjoy their content.  Maybe they seem like homers cause this board is hilariously pessimistic (see threads/posts on Allen regression, allen cant play in wind, allen cant play in front of crowds, tremaine edmunds is bad at MLB).  If youre gonna deal with that stuff might as well just do it on twitter where its more visible.  They have been highly regarded by the other thoughtful content creators like Joe Marino and Bruce Nolan.  I dont think either of those guys are homers, and they seem to be able to have discussions/disagreements.  They are able to get guests from other teams every week, and I dont think they could do that if were the homers that didnt understand football.

 

Oh I never said they don't understand football. They do (although certain of them maybe not quite as much as they think). Are they homers? A little, but that is fine, their audience is Bills fans. My issue is with the fact that Erik wasn't willing to accept his perspective on an issue might not be the only one or indeed the correct one - and so it proved. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me. It is a game of opinions. But when someone won't even contemplate that theirs is wrong to the point where they block someone who is debating them.... yea I lost some respect for him. 

[YattaOkasan]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Oh I never said they don't understand football. They do (although certain of them maybe not quite as much as they think). Are they homers? A little, but that is fine, their audience is Bills fans. My issue is with the fact that Erik wasn't willing to accept his perspective on an issue might not be the only one or indeed the correct one - and so it proved. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me. It is a game of opinions. But when someone won't even contemplate that theirs is wrong to the point where they block someone who is debating them.... yea I lost some respect for him. 

Sure thats fair.  This place can be a bit crazy so it may have gotten under his skin during that particular interaction (don't want to speak for them, nor do I have any perspective on the situation youre talking about).  But they seem to be able to have football discussion with many great content creators (dont know how they are on the twitter sphere) which is why the description of the situation seemed odd to me. 

 

I would also note that I have appreciated your thoughts over the years and you are one of the reason I actually come back to this board.  So thank you for what you do.  

[Max Fischer]

In this defense, MLB may be the most difficult position. The principle job appears to be pass protect the middle of the field. That's not easy.  Every snap, the MLB must diagnose the play in an instant and be in the right spot to disrupt the offense. 
 

IMO, there is a strong correlation between the entire defensive effort and the play of the MLB. 

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

This is how I feel as well.   They tend to take a glass 3/4 full approach to a lot of things Bills and I can see where that serves the model..........homers subscribe to read about the positive and at worst, the hope.

 

But Cover 1 do tend to go out of their way to try to re-inforce their prior questionable takes.    The recent one discussed here regarding Edmunds "creating" the Poyer interception against Washington is a good example.  Routine play........room to have played it better.........but when you've been selling "high impact" and there aren't plays to show for it, you've gotta' sell greatness in the routine.

 

Erik's take on what Star Lotulelei was going to bring to the Bills after he was signed was illustrated with a few plays that he pulled from Carolina tape..........one was a play where Lotulelei basically just stayed upright and Kuechly made a great, but fairly routine for him, TFL.    Another was a "triple team" where the OL clearly made a mistake in protection that he was selling as him commanding 3 blockers.   I get why it fits the business model but it's not accurate or even realistic at times.

 

 

Haha. You are doing exactly what you accuse Cover 1. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Max Fischer said:

Haha. You are doing exactly what you accuse Cover 1. 

 

Exaggerating the impact of certain Bills players?

 

Nah.

 

There are actually players who are making the best play they can on defense..........Edmunds is just rarely one of them..........that's why you don't see interceptions, forced fumbles, recoveries, pressures, sacks etc.. from Tremaine.    It's not because he's not being put in position to make them.  

 

@GoBills808 thinks turnovers and therefore turnover differential is entirely random but the reality is that the differential is as decisive of a stat as there is in the sport..........and Edmunds has a LONG track record of not contributing to that number.  

[Max Fischer]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Exaggerating the impact of certain Bills players?

 

Nah.

 

There are actually players who are making the best play they can on defense..........Edmunds is just rarely one of them..........that's why you don't see interceptions, forced fumbles, recoveries, pressures, sacks etc.. from Tremaine.    It's not because he's not being put in position to make them.  

 

@GoBills808 thinks turnovers and therefore turnover differential is entirely random but the reality is that the differential is as decisive of a stat as there is in the sport..........and Edmunds has a LONG track record of not contributing to that number.  

You and others just won’t accept Edmunds MLB is so much different than any other MLB that you’ve lost all perspective. 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

You and others just won’t accept Edmunds MLB is so much different than any other MLB that you’ve lost all perspective. 

 

 

 

Tell me about other LB's.

 

I've gone into detail on the differences between Edmunds and the best.    I've illustrated how others make plays given similar responsibilities.    

 

We will always have a group of homers like yourself on here who don't follow the rest of the league but want to tell everyone how unique what a certain Bills player brings to the table is.

 

He's a good player..........but unfortunately his trajectory is a lot like Tyrod Taylor at QB.........Tyrod threw for more yards per attempt in 2015 than Josh Allen did last year........Edmunds came out the box making plays...........but in the process of trying to be more responsible they both lost that big play ability.

 

Maybe Edmunds was destined to become a small play MLB once teams got tape on him............but I think more likely he just hasn't been able to combine all of the mental aspects of the game and still be able to play a style that's conducive to playmaking.

 

That's why I say I am still hopeful that the game slows down for him.   But 49 starts and 3000 snaps is A LOT of time to wait.

 

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

You and others just won’t accept Edmunds MLB is so much different than any other MLB that you’ve lost all perspective. 

 

He’s not so different in his role from someone like Fred Warner. 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He’s not so different in his role from someone like Fred Warner. 

My only memories of Warner are him being burned by passes from Allen last year and Rodgers last week. 

 

Imagine the hot takes fans had on him, lol.

[pigpen65]

Poyer ruled out for Sunday with ankle injury