OT: Are you concerned about Mac Jones?

[TheBrownBear]

How does Mac Jones "scare" anyone?  Even if he turns out to be really good, we still have Josh Allen.  As long as we have Allen running the show on offense and McDermott/Frazier shepherding our defense, I'm not going to be afraid of anyone.  The Pats being good again doesn't suddenly make us a lesser team.

[Boatdrinks]

No, not concerned. McDaniels is a very good O coordinator for sure. More concerned about him than Mac. As for the chances of Mac being something akin to another Brady, they’re somewhere around 0.00001%. As much as I dislike him ( though less now that he’s in Tampa), he’s just a one of a kind player that’s probably the best there’s been in the league. That’s not happening anytime soon, and not with the same team in 2 short years. If you look at Brady’s career, projecting anything close to that on Jones because he has the same Eagle wing on his helmet is nothing short of ridiculous. Now, can we stop with these over the top Patriots threads? They’re a 2-4 team that put a little win streak together, nothing more. 

[Ghost_002!]

6 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

No, not concerned. McDaniels is a very good O coordinator for sure. More concerned about him than Mac. As for the chances of Mac being something akin to another Brady, they’re somewhere around 0.00001%. As much as I dislike him ( though less now that he’s in Tampa), he’s just a one of a kind player that’s probably the best there’s been in the league. That’s not happening anytime soon, and not with the same team in 2 short years. If you look at Brady’s career, projecting anything close to that on Jones because he has the same Eagle wing on his helmet is nothing short of ridiculous. Now, can we stop with these over the top Patriots threads? They’re a 2-4 team that put a little win streak together, nothing more. 

 

 

 

ahhh you seem to be missing a couple games off that record there....

[Mrbojanglezs]

he's more of "at his ceiling" kind of prospect, not a lot of upside there.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Has he played a good Zone defense yet? 

[Ghost_002!]

8 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Has he played a good Zone defense yet? 

 

 

Cleveland played zone last week. How many times they did i do not know, but they played it. And he was able to find the soft spot in that zone and completed the pass to his wide outs (check his 3rd down conversions last week especially). Plus, his coach has been coaching since the 70s..i am sure he has coached him up to approach certain defenses a certain way. (that is not to say he wouldn't struggle against a solid defense)

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ghost_002!

[Rigotz]

Baker Mayfield. That's the comp I see.

 

Fantastic rookie year. A lot of people expected a great rookie season from both players because they both played in "pro-ready" offenses and weren't asked to do a lot. I think what we're seeing is much closer to Mac's ceiling than Pats fans would like to admit.

 

He'll be a great game manager and get them barely in the playoffs or barely outside the playoffs year after year.... like a Kirk Cousins. That's exactly what you hope for in a division rival, because it never gives them a chance to get a superstar QB like the one we have.

[Boatdrinks]

18 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

 

ahhh you seem to be missing a couple games off that record there....

No, they started 2-4 and then went on a little winning streak the next 4 games or whatever. That’s what they are. The media loves them some Patriots and can’t get enough, even though Brady is long gone. 

[Logic]

I'm still not concerned about Mac Jones.

I'm never too concerned about any quarterback until they've done it for 2-3 seasons without showing regression.

There are lots of instances of QBs lighting it up (or at least showing great promise) in year one, only to be thwarted in years two and three after defenses have some tape study in the offseason. As @Rigotzmentioned, Baker Mayfield is a great example. He was so good and so exciting in year one that they cast him in every single TV commercial that will ever be shown. But since year one? Not so great. 

Furthermore, I don't see many special traits in Jones' game. He's quite accurate, I suppose, and seems to have a great mind for the game. He has yet to show, however, that he can elevate his team. That he can put them on his back and carry them to victory. He has the supporting system of a HOF coach, elite defense, and great running game. But when the going gets tough, is he going to be a guy whose skill and determination are great enough to power his team to victory by excellent individual effort? I'm not so sure. If it comes down to a shootout between Allen and Jones, or Mahomes and Jones....who are you putting your money on?

I could be way off base. I'm saying he seems like the next Baker Mayfield or Kirk Cousins, but maybe he's the next Drew Brees. It's certainly too early to tell. But "worried" about him? No, I am not.

[Ghost_002!]

24 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

No, they started 2-4 and then went on a little winning streak the next 4 games or whatever. That’s what they are. The media loves them some Patriots and can’t get enough, even though Brady is long gone. 

 

 

You know this doesn't make sense right, no what they are is 6-4. there is no such thing as a "little winning streak" in NFL football when you only play games once a week. And i wouldn't start discrediting their wins because as it's been said in here already by fellow bills posters. The bills schedule has been pretty easy to date as well. In fact i heard on sport radio yesterday that to date the bills schedule has been a little easier than the patriots..

 

Teams have won superbowls on "little winning streaks" Look at the 07 Giants, and the Bucs from last year...they went on "little winning streaks and won the whole thing....not comparing them to those teams..just making my point about "winning streaks"

22 minutes ago, Logic said:

I'm still not concerned about Mac Jones.

I'm never too concerned about any quarterback until they've done it for 2-3 seasons without showing regression.

There are lots of instances of QBs lighting it up (or at least showing great promise) in year one, only to be thwarted in years two and three after defenses have some tape study in the offseason. As @Rigotzmentioned, Baker Mayfield is a great example. He was so good and so exciting in year one that they cast him in every single TV commercial that will ever be shown. But since year one? Not so great. 

Furthermore, I don't see many special traits in Jones' game. He's quite accurate, I suppose, and seems to have a great mind for the game. He has yet to show, however, that he can elevate his team. That he can put them on his back and carry them to victory. He has the supporting system of a HOF coach, elite defense, and great running game. But when the going gets tough, is he going to be a guy whose skill and determination are great enough to power his team to victory by excellent individual effort? I'm not so sure. If it comes down to a shootout between Allen and Jones, or Mahomes and Jones....who are you putting your money on?

I could be way off base. I'm saying he seems like the next Baker Mayfield or Kirk Cousins, but maybe he's the next Drew Brees. It's certainly too early to tell. But "worried" about him? No, I am not.

 

 

He is a rookie, he is not asked to do this as of yet. This is year one. They are purposely bring him along slowly. They would have this same approach if it was Trevor Lawrence. It has nothing to do with ability, it has more to do with putting their QB in the best situation and accuracy and a great mind for the game are great traits to haveI? You need that more then your ability to sling the football or else you are Jamies Winston. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ghost_002!

[frostbitmic]

I'm very concerned about Mac Jones...

 

I'm concerned that after a strip sack he'll twist one of our defenders ankles leading to injury.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

Cleveland played zone last week. How many times they did i do not know, but they played it. And he was able to find the soft spot in that zone and completed the pass to his wide outs (check his 3rd down conversions last week especially). Plus, his coach has been bill b coaching since the 70s..i am sure he has coached him up to approach certain defenses a certain way. 

Interesting…. I watched the highlights quickly and a lot of the big plays to Hunter and that big WR seemed to beat man, but hard to know without more detailed view and breakdown. 

[KeLLy1278]

5 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Bill Belichick is a master at putting quarterbacks in the best position to succeed.   This reminds me of how he used Brady early in his career.  

 

I am more worried about Belichick.

Well to be fair, Brady has masked a lot of Bill’s mistakes over the years.  What QB has Belichick succeeded with other than with Tom?  Garropolo is made of glass, Bledsoe was about to get Bill fired before Brady stepped in and what did Bill do with Testaverde?  Nothing.  Belichick is a master… as long as Brady is his QB or if Parcells is the head coach.

[Logic]

25 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

He is a rookie, he is not asked to do this as of yet. This is year one. They are purposely bring him along slowly. They would have this same approach if it was Trevor Lawrence. It has nothing to do with ability, it has more to do with putting their QB in the best situation and accuracy and a great mind for the game are great traits to haveI? You need that more then your ability to sling the football or else you are Jamies Winston. 

Right. I understand that and I agree.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see any particular special traits that he has that are going to enable him to go toe-to-toe with the Josh Allens and Patrick Mahomes of the world when the time comes. These days, the best offenses are quarterbacked by guys that are mobile, can play off-structure, can improvise, can make a defender miss and find answers when plays break down. I'm not sure Jones will ever be that guy. I'm not saying he definitely won't, I'm just saying I don't see the evidence that he's more than a throwback pocket passer with an average arm.

In the NFL, to be a very good quarterback for a very long time, you have to have some kind of special traits that elevate your game. I'm simply saying that at this point, I'm not sure what those are -- if they exist at all -- for Jones. He's winning right now by being smart and taking care of the football on a team coached by the GOAT and paired with an elite defense and great running game. But if and when the time comes to put the team on his back? I don't know, man...

As I said, I could be totally wrong. Maye he's Drew Brees. Maybe he's Joe Montana. Maybe I'm an idiot. Who knows?

[auburnbillsbacker]

4 hours ago, ALF said:

Mac has excellent stats for a rookie so far, great draft pick by NE* at 15

It angered me that he was available at 15.  The Patriots were so arrogant, and were willing to let him go if another team drafted him 1-14.  Instead, they just sat there and he was available.  The Bills had to trade up from 21 to 12, then 12 to 7 to get Allen.  In order to do that they had to make several other trades to accumulate draft capital.  Not the Patriots.  

[Ghost_002!]

25 minutes ago, Logic said:

Right. I understand that and I agree.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see any particular special traits that he has that are going to enable him to go toe-to-toe with the Josh Allens and Patrick Mahomes of the world when the time comes. These days, the best offenses are quarterbacked by guys that are mobile, can play off-structure, can improvise, can make a defender miss and find answers when plays break down. I'm not sure Jones will ever be that guy. I'm not saying he definitely won't, I'm just saying I don't see the evidence that he's more than a throwback pocket passer with an average arm.

In the NFL, to be a very good quarterback for a very long time, you have to have some kind of special traits that elevate your game. I'm simply saying that at this point, I'm not sure what those are -- if they exist at all -- for Jones. He's winning right now by being smart and taking care of the football on a team coached by the GOAT and paired with an elite defense and great running game. But if and when the time comes to put the team on his back? I don't know, man...

As I said, I could be totally wrong. Maye he's Drew Brees. Maybe he's Joe Montana. Maybe I'm an idiot. Who knows?

 

 

He is not a gun slinger and was not adveristied as such. He doesn't have to be. For the QB position, it's important to have the mind over just having the ability. Yes being mobile makes a difference but that definitely doesn't matter if you game plan and scheme to counter what the defense gives you.

 

Look at Brady and look at Rodgers. Rodgers has way more ability than Brady, but Brady is the more successful one out of the two. 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ghost_002!

[Logic]

12 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

He is not a gun slinger and was not adveristied as such. He doesn't have to be. For the QB position, it's important to have the mind over just having the ability. Yes being mobile makes a difference but that definitely doesn't matter if you game plan and scheme to counter what the defense gives you.

 

Look at Brady and look at Rodgers. Rodgers has way more ability than Brady, but Brady is the more successful one out of the two. 

 

Right, but the game has changed.

Look at the best quarterbacks in the league right now other than Brady: Mahomes, Allen, Murray, Jackson, Herbert, Prescott, Rodgers, Wilson, Watson, even up-and-coming guys like Joe Burrow and Jalen Hurts...ALL of them  are mobile and can play off-structure and improvise and have exemplary athleticism. Brady is arguably the ONLY successful quarterback in the league who is an immobile, throwback pocket passer. Obviously, his elite football mind and 20 years of experience allow him to continue to be All-World. I'm just saying that offensive football AS IT'S PLAYED NOW, in 2021, seems to favor mobility and the ability to play off-structure. I don't think that's even in question.

If Mac Jones becomes one of the league's best quarterbacks over the course of his career, he'll be bucking a trend and will be the exception rather than the rule. I'm not saying he can't or won't do it. But the question posed in this thread was "are you concerned about Mac Jones?", and the answer for me is still "no" for the reasons I've laid out.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Logic

[Ghost_002!]

15 minutes ago, Logic said:

Right, but the game has changed.

Look at the best quarterbacks in the league right now other than Brady: Mahomes, Allen, Murray, Jackson, Herbert, Prescott, Rodgers, Wilson, Watson, even up-and-coming guys like Joe Burrow and Jalen Hurts...ALL of them  are mobile and can play off-structure and improvise and have exemplary athleticism. Brady is arguably the ONLY successful quarterback in the league who is an immobile, throwback pocket passer. Obviously, his elite football mind and 20 years of experience allow him to continue to be All-World. I'm just saying that offensive football AS IT'S PLAYED NOW, in 2021, seems to favor mobility and the ability to play off-structure. I don't think that's even in question.

If Mac Jones becomes one of the league's best quarterbacks over the course of his career, he'll be bucking a trend and will be the exception rather than the rule. I'm not saying he can't or won't do it. But the question posed in this thread was "are you concerned about Mac Jones?", and the answer for me is still "no" for the reasons I've laid out.

 

 

 

Right, the QB position has evolved. But out of all those QBs you named, how many SBs have they won,  how many have they even gone to..excluding Brady? I can name them. collectively taken Brady out the mix. 3. Mahomes has one, Rodgers one, and Wilson one. that's it.

 

in fact-look at Mahomes with that ability he has...and he only won 1 SB and got his a** kicked last SB.  And might not go back to another one this year. This game is so much more than just the players ability. Reason why BB is so successful. 

 

and of top of it..it's still not a good idea to have your QB running. As their positions has evolved, so has the defensive players. They are bigger and faster. QBs still getting trucked by these guys can still end a career. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ghost_002!

[longtimebillsfan]

1 hour ago, KeLLy1278 said:

Well to be fair, Brady has masked a lot of Bill’s mistakes over the years.  What QB has Belichick succeeded with other than with Tom?  Garropolo is made of glass, Bledsoe was about to get Bill fired before Brady stepped in and what did Bill do with Testaverde?  Nothing.  Belichick is a master… as long as Brady is his QB or if Parcells is the head coach.

Cassell and Garropolo are two perfect examples.  Belichick got the most out of both of these qbs while they were in in New England.  I am not saying they excelled elsewhere.

 

Garrapolo did take the 49ers to the Superbowl howeve, that is really off point.

 

Just expressing my opinion

 

 

[Logic]

18 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

Right, the QB position has evolved. But out of all those QBs you named, how many SBs have they won,  how many have they even gone to..excluding Brady? I can name them. collectively taken Brady out the mix. 3. Mahomes has one, Rodgers one, and Wilson one. that's it.

 

in fact-look at Mahomes with that ability he has...and he only won 1 SB and got his a** kicked last SB.  And might not go back to another one this year. This game is so much more than just the players ability. Reason why BB is so successful. 

 

and of top of it..it's still not a good idea to have your QB running. As their positions has evolved, so has the defensive players. They are bigger and faster. QBs still getting trucked by these guys can still end a career. 

As to your first two paragraphs: you're still talking about the past. I'm talking about the present. Brady is literally the ONLY example of an immobile, throwback pocket passer playing at a consistently elite level in the NFL RIGHT NOW. Every other guy you can name in the top 10 of quarterback play year to year has mobility, athleticism, etc. 

Further, when I talk about mobility in QBs, it doesn't mean QBs that run for 500 yards a year. I'm talking about pocket mobility, escaping pressure, rolling out to the left and right, making off-platform throws, and also the athleticism and improvisatory ability to make off-structure plays.

Also, the whole "Running QBs get injured more" trope has been disproven again and again. It simply isn't true. QBs are far more likely to be injured in the pocket than they are when on the move.

With regard to the question of whether or not a given quarterback can elevate their team when things aren't going well: Simply look at the Browns' situation with Baker Mayfield right now. When the defense and running game are humming, they win games. When either of those things aren't functioning well, Mayfield has not proven over the past couple of seasons that he can routinely lift the team up, carry them on his back, and win football games. Put another way, he's not much more than a game manager who NEEDS a great supporting roster in order to succeed. BECAUSE he hasn't shown the ability to transcend that and to produce at a high level in the passing game, the Browns aren't sure whether or not they want to spend big money on him.

I do not doubt that Jones can be a good care-taker of the football and can win games when paired with a defense and running game. I'm questioning whether or not he'll be able to elevate his team when those two things aren't going well.