OT: Are you concerned about Mac Jones?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Come on, Hap, disagreeing with him makes total sense, but at least correctly represent what he's saying.

 

You say, "Intangibles and from the neck up 'the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback'"? But that's not what he said.

 

He said, "Mac Jones has some stuff in him, some intangibles, that I think are maybe the greatest we've EVER seen from a quarterback. ... From neck up, I don't know if we've ever seen a rookie that is better."

 

There's still a lot there to disagree with. But let's not distort the message as so many do on here before they attack some point.

 

Let's also not pretend that ESPN is pushing this. It's just some guy on ESPN.

 

Sorry, your distinctions are too fine for me.  Even raising that as a possibility from a rookie after 11 games is "over the top" and I think you know it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for giving Mac Jones his propers that he's playing very well but that's just silly, even with the "maybe" and the "neck up".

 

[Thurman#1]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sorry, your distinctions are too fine for me.  Even raising that as a possibility from a rookie after 11 games is "over the top" and I think you know it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for giving Mac Jones his propers that he's playing very well but that's just silly, even with the "maybe" and the "neck up".

 

 

 

Oh, please. It's not too fine in any way, Hap, and I know you know it.

 

He put in a bunch of qualifiers and you chose to ignore them.

 

That's not defensible. Again, there's a lot there to disagree with but he did not say what you tried to represent him as saying.

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Bruce Smith said:

Just heard this on the Ringer podcast: 

 

 

 

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

That is why I am worried.  NE has faced better teams and their D is playing lights out.  Jones also has faced better teams and played well for a rookie.  The meat of the Bills schedule is coming and I have a sense that Allen and the D won't be as good as they look now.  It is all a facade of an easy schedule.  

 

More proof:  NE destroyed the Jets putting up over 50 with a rookie QB.  Did Allen put over 50 with 260 million dollar contract and several years of experience with better WR's?  

 

Let us no delude ourselves boys.  This is a dogfight now.  

 

Its always a dog fight in the division.  The Pats are a good team.  They just still are not the team of the past.  Also this is another case that looks at a stat in a vacuum.  Although the DVOA says we played the 32 schedule, what wasn't said is the Pats played the 26th schedule (not updated for Falcons yet) which isn't all that much different.  What wasn't said is the Bills rank #1 in DVOA. The Pats currently rank #5.

 

Could we lose to them?  Absolutely.  They are playing just as well as us at this point.  Just differently. Too many people are trying to find ways to say the Bills have no chance without actually saying it though.  Pretty lame to me.  Why do Bills fans purposely try to not believe their team is good when the evidence says otherwise.  Sure, we had two clunkers and a close game loss. And those clunkers were still one score losses. We also had some hefty blowouts.  People want to cry schedule as if to somehow prove the Bills aren't good.  I would buy into that if we were winning those games by our teeth.  We aren't though.  We are blowing them out.

 

Oh well the Pats put up over 50 on the Jets!!!!  Yeah, the Bills put up 45 and still didn't play to their potential.  Whats the difference?  Who cares?  Its not about who played who.  Its about how they will play each other.  I expect a tough game that could go either way and I look forward to it.  I expect our coaching staff to have answers and our team to play good football.  I expect them to find a way to win.  Thats all that matters.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Scott7975

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

[Strethor]

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

[Success]

5 minutes ago, Strethor said:

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

 

They keep making the Brady comparison - both the media and Pats fans.

 

The main comparison is that he's a dink & dunk game manager at this stage of his career, which is what Brady was at a similar time.  And these Pats remind a lot of fans of the 2001 Pats - more defensive oriented, with a QB who doesn't make mistakes and can put a few points on the board.

 

But to go from there to thinking that it's a natural progression to best QB in the league, GOAT and HOF is kind of a stretch.  This may be as good as Mac Jones ever gets (and that was the assessment coming out of college - most pro ready, but lowest ceiling).

 

[Warcodered]

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Warcodered

[Success]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

The hype is out of control - and it's only because he's a Patriot.

 

Listening to the guys on the Thurs. night broadcast was a chore.  Jones threw that pass to Bourne for the TD - Bourne had no one within 10 yards, and Jones had absolutely no pressure, and it was a short pass - and the way those guys talked you would have thought it was a 50-yarder that threaded the needle between 3 defenders, all while Jones had a blitz right in his face.

 

People are already declaring him the best QB from the draft.

 

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, Bruce Smith said:

"The Bills have faced the easiest schedule in the league in terms of opposing DVOA offensively and defensively. It's equivalent to playing the Falcons every week thus far"

 

That is why I am worried.  NE has faced better teams and their D is playing lights out.  Jones also has faced better teams and played well for a rookie.  The meat of the Bills schedule is coming and I have a sense that Allen and the D won't be as good as they look now.  It is all a facade of an easy schedule.  

 

If you're going to cite DVOA, cite DVOA. The Bills are ranked higher than the Patriots in offense, defense, and special teams. If you want to talk about defenses playing lights out the Bills defense is #1 in DVOA and in a tier of its own.

 

The Patriots are a good balanced team. 5th overall in DVOA which is better than anyone would have predicted (and this is before the Falcons game is factored in). And they have had a harder schedule but they haven't been beating their good opponents. Their above average opponents in DVOA were the Saints, Bucs, and Cowboys... all losses. They've beaten their middling opponents in the Browns, Chargers, and Panthers.

 

The Patriots will not be an easy opponent by any means. We are just better across the board as of right now. If we play like crap against the Colts and/or Saints the picture will become more muddled.

Edited November 20, 2021 by HappyDays

[L Ron Burgundy]

Their game plans are unreal.  Mac is doing this well because of their schemes.  I've watched a few hours of Pat's games and they're scheming him mostly short stuff that's super effective. Beating them will be a test for Frazier imo.  Make adjustments as they do.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, please. It's not too fine in any way, Hap, and I know you know it.

 

He put in a bunch of qualifiers and you chose to ignore them.

 

That's not defensible. Again, there's a lot there to disagree with but he did not say what you tried to represent him as saying.

 

Kindly don't tell me what I think or know.

 

I believe you to be splitting hairs (too fine a point).  That's my opinion.  Deal.

 

With or without the qualifiers, I think it's a ridiculous quote - and this despite my being fully willing to acknowledge that Mac Jones is Doing His Job within the Patriots system and doing it well to date.

 

I have no more to say on the subject.  If you want to puff this up into some sort of position you believe I need to defend, Have a Ball.  You pick the argument, you start the argument, you carry on both sides.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us

 

Yep.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Kindly don't tell me what I think or know.

 

I believe you to be splitting hairs (too fine a point).  That's my opinion.  Deal.

 

With or without the qualifiers, I think it's a ridiculous quote - and this despite my being fully willing to acknowledge that Mac Jones is Doing His Job within the Patriots system and doing it well to date.

 

I have no more to say on the subject.  If you want to puff this up into some sort of position you believe I need to defend, Have a Ball.  You pick the argument, you start the argument, you carry on both sides.

 

 

Frankly, that is absolute bull picky. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

And what I did is anything but splitting hairs. Not even remotely.

 

What it is is a common and obvious rule for discussion, a rule that makes for infinitely better, smarter, clearer discussion, and that rule is ...

 

 

 

If you're going to attack what a guy says ... then attack what he says. 

 

Don't attack what he did not say.

 

Don't remove parts of his argument and then attack the fact that without the parts you removed his arguments make no sense. And that's what you did here, Hap.

 

Don't distort the argument and then attack the distortions.

 

Don't twist the argument and then attack the fact that it's twisted.

 

 

 

This is simple common sense. This guy didn't say what you said he did. So you misrepresented his argument and then argued that he's wrong in presenting an argument that in fact was created by you, not him.

 

You created a straw man. It happens consistently on these forums. And it is destructive to reasonable discussion.

 

Disagreeing with somebody and saying it ... totally reasonable. Misrepresenting what he said ... completely unreasonable. Degrades discussion.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Thurman#1

[P Riv]

20 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

Not worried about Jones but am concerned about Bellycheck scheming a defense against us 

 

 

 

They look like they have for the last 2 decades, except at QB.  If 12 were back there with this current team we'd be pretty F'd.  

As it stands, we're going to win this Division, no doubt.  

[PatsFanNH]

22 hours ago, Strethor said:

It's really funny to see Pats fans and media immediately link him to be a Brady second coming and that it's over for our regin at the top of the AFCE. It's certainly a good start for him, nothing is guarenteed in this league

I see the team being similar to 2001 in the fact it’s D first, followed by the run game with accurate passing when needed. NOT saying it’s 2001 just the style they are playing is that of Brady first year starting. Which IMO is the best thing for a rookie QB.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

2 hours ago, P Riv said:

 

They look like they have for the last 2 decades, except at QB.  If 12 were back there with this current team we'd be pretty F'd.  

As it stands, we're going to win this Division, no doubt.  

 

But 12 isnt back there and once we upgrade the Oline they wont be a match for us.

 

 

[P Riv]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

But 12 isnt back there and once we upgrade the Oline they wont be a match for us.

 

 

 

I like the confidence, but that upgrading will happen in the offseason.  They upgraded this past offseason, and now have the division lead.  Point being, everybody "upgrades" in the offseason but it only works out for a few teams.  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 hour ago, P Riv said:

 

I like the confidence, but that upgrading will happen in the offseason.  They upgraded this past offseason, and now have the division lead.  Point being, everybody "upgrades" in the offseason but it only works out for a few teams.  

 

We didn't upgrade, we signed everybody back , which was a mistake. Absolutely sign Milano but bringing back the offensive line was not smart because they weren't good last year. Also not beefing up the DT position was a mistake

 

 

[Success]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

We didn't upgrade, we signed everybody back , which was a mistake. Absolutely sign Milano but bringing back the offensive line was not smart because they weren't good last year. Also not beefing up the DT position was a mistake

 

 

 

I think once they made some investments in the line, they wanted to believe & stick w/ those guys. But has anyone in that unit met expectations?  I'm not a good evaluator - I just know that the line as a whole is not good.  We had high hopes for some of these guys, like Morse & Dawkins.  Should we just scrap it and start from scratch?

 

No answers here. The only thing that is 100% is that the O-line has to be the top priority in the offseason.