Picking up Edmunds Option a Rare Beane Mistake

[BarleyNY]

13 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

We have a linebacker who regularly makes “splash plays” and it’s not #49.

That’s fair. “Splash plays” was generous on my part.  I was not a proponent of the Bills picking up Edmunds’ option and I certainly don’t want them to pay him a huge contract to stay.  He is very athletic and that certainly helps him make positive plays, but his mistakes and inconsistencies continue to be an issue.  He’s just not worth what he’s going to cost. 

[RochesterLifer]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There have been some unfair criticisms of Edmunds........like saying his isn't physical enough........that's certainly not the case.

 

But the criticism regarding his lack of big, game changing plays over the last 3+ season's is simply factual.    And it's not just fans on a website who note it.   Watch the games.   It's part of his identity around the league now.

 

People like yourself and @Max Fischer can do a ton of research trying to familiarize yourself with the Bills defense.....but to understand what you are seeing you also need to be able to use your own eyes and a little common sense as well.

 

Milano and Edmunds don't have identical roles in the defense.

 

They are similar but you can't on-one-hand say that they have nearly identical roles but effectively one guy "by design" makes big plays and the other does not.   

 

Edmunds is a top 10-12 MLB/ILB ...........a devalued position.........and that's OK but when you are the biggest and most gifted player playing the position in the NFL and your team traded up in the middle of round 1 to select you and you are about to become a $12M-$20M per year cap liability.........people are going to expect YOU to be the guy making plays.    

 

The mike on a defense is traditionally a mirror reflection of the (also de-valued) RB position.......and if you take your nose out of the biased Bills coverage/analysis and actually follow the rest of the league....... that's really still the case with most of the truly elite MLB/ILB's.

 

Physically, Tremaine Edmunds is the Derrick Henry of inside LB's..........but unlike Henry he doesn't perform like a truly elite player at the position.

 

In short, save the line of bulls*t about he's just so misunderstood for people who don't know he can perform A LOT better.

 

And there we have vintage badolbilz in a nutshell, insulting anyone he disagrees with. 

- In Micah Hydes sack Sunday, Tua immediately goes to his hot read, Devonte Parker, running a quick slant. Edmunds is there, closing it off. Hyde gets the "big play".

- On AJ's sack, Tua looks immediately to his tight end. But Edmunds is there, closing it off. Epenesa gets the "big play".

I have a seven year old nephew likes seeing "big, game changing plays" but doesn't yet recognize the scheming and team contributions to those plays. Edmunds is doing his job very well in Frazier's and McDermott's defense.

 

I am responding, not because we disagree, but because your mannerisms are so far out of line:

- Behaving as an internet tough guy just spoils the conversation: "In short, save the line of bulls*t about he's just so misunderstood for people who don't know he can perform A LOT better."

- And finally, "And don't get me started..." Nobody wants to get you started. I suspect many would just like you to just leave.

 

ctk232 crushed you in this conversation. Have a snickers bar.

Edited September 23, 2021 by RochesterLifer

[Buffalo716]

11 hours ago, ctk232 said:

I just…how are these hot takes still going on? Do you not watch or understand our defense? I’ll try and keep this short as I’ve (and many others) have posted this more times than should be needed.
 

1. McD runs a base nickel defense which, by literal definition, does not have a “traditional” MLB, nor does it even have an MLB position.
 

2. The roles as assigned are damn near identical between Milano and Edmunds in the defensive scheme. This is intentional as it primarily is used to address the pass heavy league we find ourselves in.
 

3. It does so without sacrificing too much in run defense by asking the front four (especially 1T and 3T IDLs) to gap manage, while Edmunds and Milano are free to plug in addition to our hybrid nickel DB. Anyone wishing to disagree with me here hasn’t listened to the players, much less Lorenzo Alexander literally say as much. 

To use someone like Klein in Edmunds role would require a fundamental shift in scheme, as it did last year when Milano went down and Klein had to step in for an extended period. This is due to the completely different physics abilities and attributes of Edmunds, and just how unique of a player profile is required to play this position in McD’s defense. It’s maddening to hear these takes when what you’re asking for is nothing short of an entirely different defense, philosophy and all.

 

For the defense we do run, and Edmunds has been asked to QB for the past four seasons, he has done a phenomenal job. Not without error or injury affected play, but phenomenal nonetheless. So much so he’s made multiple pro bowls, and lest we forget the fact that he played most of the past two seasons less than 100% with his shoulder (a shoulder…as an LB). Put simply, the success of our defense lies as much with him as does the offense with Josh.
 

I say maddening, but it’s also truly hilarious to see everyone here pile on the Edmunds hate with little to no statistical evidence, reference to performance vs assignment execution, or the pretty obvious fact that we’ve had a top ten D for almost four seasons now. The only supported claim I’ve seen is he has missed gap assignments on run plays, but this is a very low probability event at best when compared to overall defensive snaps and run plays faced. Also, isn’t our run D something like 2nd in the league after the first two weeks? Who knows…guess we’ll be having this conversation again by week 10 based on how frequently these threads pop up.

I will agree with most of what you're saying

 

But there is a MIKE in a nickel defense and a WILL linebacker

 

Not in traditional 43 roles... The WILL (Milano ) actually lines up strongside in nickel...  

 

Because the two linebackers in the nickel set are basically mirroring inside backers in a 34... Not a traditional Mike and will role

 

 

 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

7 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

 

And there we have vintage badolbilz in a nutshell, insulting anyone he disagrees with. 

- In Micah Hydes sack Sunday, Tua immediately goes to his hot read, Devonte Parker, running a quick slant. Edmunds is there, closing it off. Hyde gets the "big play".

- On AJ's sack, Tua looks immediately to his tight end. But Edmunds is there, closing it off. Epenesa gets the "big play".

I have a seven year old nephew likes seeing "big, game changing plays" but doesn't yet recognize the scheming and team contributions to those plays. Edmunds is doing his job very well in Frazier's and McDermott's defense.

 

I am responding, not because we disagree, but because your mannerisms are so far out of line:

- Behaving as an internet tough guy just spoils the conversation: "In short, save the line of bulls*t about he's just so misunderstood for people who don't know he can perform A LOT better."

- And finally, "And don't get me started..." Nobody wants to get you started. I suspect many would just like you to just leave.

 

ctk232 crushed you in this conversation. Have a snickers bar.

It’s weird then that the Bills’ coaches have been saying the same things - that Edmunds needs to start making more big plays.  They must not understand their own defense.  🧐

Edited September 23, 2021 by Coach Tuesday

[dave mcbride]

10 hours ago, ctk232 said:

Not sure where to start here………

 

So you’re saying because he doesn’t make the big game changing plays (whatever that means) he isn’t worth extending much less having on the team? If that’s so then you have a case to make for cutting most every player on the team depending on what your definition of frequency of big plays is. For example, as equally “big” as the sack is on any given play, the 1T eating up a double team opening an inside gap makes it even possible to begin with is just as “big” - Tre does this repeatedly, as does Milano.

 

The responsibilities of both LB positions in the base nickel defense are damn near identical the way McD wants them to be played. It’s a hybrid combination of physicality and speed, primarily to negate passing offenses in dropback zone coverage while playing fast in gaps in run defense. This isn’t research or opinion, it’s what McD has said about his own defense. As a result, neither are nor can be what everyone considers prototypical or “traditional” LBs. This is also why we have the hybrid nickel position, which requires a larger more physical DB to attack on runs and blitzes. Milano and Edmunds have the same responsibilities in the defense, but each have unique physical attributes that allow them to excel in different areas. Despite this, both are asked to drop in coverage, gap stuff, and blitz from multiple positions. 

Why are you comparing him to Derrick Henry? Attempted argument by analogy? Also are you saying the rest of the league’s MLB/ILB are all hard nosed run stuffers, which is the defining quality that makes them truly elite? Ever seen Devin White? Darius Leonard? Bobby Wagner? They drop in coverage with the best of them. Mirror-reflection of the RB, just what is that supposed to mean as a measure of what an LB is and should be in THIS defense. Not sure what the rest of the league has to do with how our defense is run, but sure…

 

Lastly, can he play better? He sure thinks he can, and considering his age I’m not one to argue with it. What player on our team can’t play better? But your hilarious expectations of what he should be because of what it took to get him are woefully inconsistent with the reality of his strong performance, and marked improvement each year. 

Our defense is predicated on having a MLB who is as instinctive, as good in coverage, and as capable of making big plays as Luke Keuchly. That's who the Bills thought they were trading up for. He is not close to being that player. Badol is right that it's a devalued position, although just as there are elite RBs, there are elite MLBs (all of the ones who fall in that category are guys who can cover, however). The better way to think about it is that inside LBs who are excellent at stopping the run are more or less a dime a dozen relative to DEs, pass rushing OLBs, and CBs. Think Reggie Ragland ad infinitum. Wagner is special just the way that Alvin Kamara is special -- they are excellent in the pass game. Edmunds has the tools to be good in the pass game, but the fact of the matter is that he was a poor pass defender last season. It's too early to tell this season. I'm hoping for the best.   

[BADOLBILZ]

14 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

 

And there we have vintage badolbilz in a nutshell, insulting anyone he disagrees with. 

- In Micah Hydes sack Sunday, Tua immediately goes to his hot read, Devonte Parker, running a quick slant. Edmunds is there, closing it off. Hyde gets the "big play".

- On AJ's sack, Tua looks immediately to his tight end. But Edmunds is there, closing it off. Epenesa gets the "big play".

I have a seven year old nephew likes seeing "big, game changing plays" but doesn't yet recognize the scheming and team contributions to those plays. Edmunds is doing his job very well in Frazier's and McDermott's defense.

 

I am responding, not because we disagree, but because your mannerisms are so far out of line:

- Behaving as an internet tough guy just spoils the conversation: "In short, save the line of bulls*t about he's just so misunderstood for people who don't know he can perform A LOT better."

- And finally, "And don't get me started..." Nobody wants to get you started. I suspect many would just like you to just leave.

 

ctk232 crushed you in this conversation. Have a snickers bar.

 

 

1. Everyone has a role in every play.   Being where you are supposed to be away from the ball is expected.......it's not the same as making a big play.   We understand the concept of team defense.........but the idea that Edmunds himself cannot make any big plays because he is too busy letting everyone else get the credit is laughable.  Routine plays are cited as Edmunds highlights.   We've had some posted in this thread.  

 

 

 

@ctk232 tried to shout down the conversation in this thread with snark..........you don't see it that way because you clearly don't have any common sense.......you are like a 7 year old nephew in that regard.     

[dave mcbride]

31 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

 

And there we have vintage badolbilz in a nutshell, insulting anyone he disagrees with. 

- In Micah Hydes sack Sunday, Tua immediately goes to his hot read, Devonte Parker, running a quick slant. Edmunds is there, closing it off. Hyde gets the "big play".

- On AJ's sack, Tua looks immediately to his tight end. But Edmunds is there, closing it off. Epenesa gets the "big play".

I have a seven year old nephew likes seeing "big, game changing plays" but doesn't yet recognize the scheming and team contributions to those plays. Edmunds is doing his job very well in Frazier's and McDermott's defense.

 

I am responding, not because we disagree, but because your mannerisms are so far out of line:

- Behaving as an internet tough guy just spoils the conversation: "In short, save the line of bulls*t about he's just so misunderstood for people who don't know he can perform A LOT better."

- And finally, "And don't get me started..." Nobody wants to get you started. I suspect many would just like you to just leave.

 

ctk232 crushed you in this conversation. Have a snickers bar.

The argument isn't what he did in the Miami game (although he made a couple of poor plays trying to make stops on outside runs along with fulfilling assignments well), but more on his overall performance last season, which wasn't great and a step backward from 2019. Granted, he played injured for much of it, and that doesn't get mentioned enough. Playing with a bum shoulder as MLB is really rough. Regardless, the guy he was drafted to be -- Luke Kuechly -- made play after play after play after play. Edmunds does not, at least up to this point. Maybe Edmunds gets closer to that level of performance as this season progresses. I am hopeful because of the talent. But it's laughable to suggest he's anywhere close to Kuechly at this point in his career. His postseason performance last season was uneven too -- good against the Ravens, but mostly a JAG-level player against the teams that had strong passing offenses: Indy and KC. He was awful vs. KC, but so was almost everyone else.  

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KuecLu00.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EdmuTr01.htm

[PaoloBillsFanFromItaly]

The point with Edmunds is its "averageness" in the running game.

Most of the time is doing is job, ok, but he very rarely makes a great play.

For example, he may shoot his gap and meet the pulling guard closing the gap of his responsibility, but he won't BEAT the pulling guard and make the tackle in the backfield.

When the OL reaches the LB level he never make a great play, most of the times he is carried downfield by olinemen thus giving the RB a good amount of yardage.

In the passing game is very good, but pedestrian, and he has not good hands to make plays on the ball.

[NewEra]

20 hours ago, Gambit said:

Such a smart play that unfortunately goes unnoticed because ppl would rather hate on him.

They don’t go unnoticed.  I

 

On 9/21/2021 at 9:14 PM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I would argue that says more about your memory and what you are looking for than it does about his performance.

 

One comes immediately to mind.  On the play when he stoned the guy at the goal line on third and goal last year, he absolutely imposed his will.

 

Most times when he makes a tackle, really. The ball carrier would rather stay up. Tremaine tackles him.

 

What you and many others seem to want is the train wreck Brandon Spikes or Dick Butkus kind of play. That's not the kind of player he is. And there really aren't many more Brandon Spikes / Dick Butkus players in the NFL anymore. The league has changed. McDermott wants a guy with speed, height and length in the middle. He doesn't need a guy to blow people up. He need someone to make tackles, to go sideline to sideline, to be very strong in pass coverage and Tremaine does that.

huge exaggeration.

 

Literally no one wants a Brandon spikes.  Those you are speaking of want a LB that is adept in coverage as well as stopping the run.  They want a Lb that can make the correct reads lightning quick.  A LB that creates turnovers and can capitalize on the oppositions mistakes.  A LB that isn’t so easily manipulated by the QBs eyes.  
 

most importantly…..those fans just hope that we don’t overpay a LB which could cause huge cap problems down the road.  If he were signed to multi year contract and he were making 7M per year, I don’t think anyone would be talking about him in a negative light.  He was seen as a franchise cornerstone and building block the moment he was drafted. After 3 seasons, it’s time to figure out if we’re going to pay him as such.  I think that it’s more than fair to critique a cornerstone player who’s contract is coming up for an extension.  
 

I like Tremaine.  He’s just not a star, likely set to be paid like a superstar.  To this point, I don’t think his play has warranted a monster extension.  Maybe his play this year will change my, and others’, mind. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by NewEra

[Nextmanup]

16 minutes ago, PaoloBillsFanFromItaly said:

The point with Edmunds is its "averageness" in the running game.

Most of the time is doing is job, ok, but he very rarely makes a great play.

For example, he may shoot his gap and meet the pulling guard closing the gap of his responsibility, but he won't BEAT the pulling guard and make the tackle in the backfield.

When the OL reaches the LB level he never make a great play, most of the times he is carried downfield by olinemen thus giving the RB a good amount of yardage.

In the passing game is very good, but pedestrian, and he has not good hands to make plays on the ball.

My lasting image of Edmunds on a football field is him being pushed/taken to a spot on the field he doesn't want to go to by a blocker, while being powerless to do anything about it.

 

I've see that happen to him like 20 times; this has been talked about as long as he's been playing.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, PaoloBillsFanFromItaly said:

The point with Edmunds is its "averageness" in the running game.

Most of the time is doing is job, ok, but he very rarely makes a great play.

For example, he may shoot his gap and meet the pulling guard closing the gap of his responsibility, but he won't BEAT the pulling guard and make the tackle in the backfield.

When the OL reaches the LB level he never make a great play, most of the times he is carried downfield by olinemen thus giving the RB a good amount of yardage.

In the passing game is very good, but pedestrian, and he has not good hands to make plays on the ball.

 

 

Yeah he is surprisingly poor in space against OL downfield...........he should be discarding those big guys out in space.........but as @Simon pointed out in his post Monday.......Edmunds will eventually get rolled onto his flat side.......and if it's a screen pass on 3rd and 15 he might just cause a pile up with his door jam routine and leave the opponent a yard or two short of the first!

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[LabattBlue]

They may have picked up his 5th year option, but their is no way they are giving him a big contract for a 3 down player who makes so few impact plays. 
 

They would be crazy to give him a top 10 Linebacker contract. 

[LABILLBACKER]

6 minutes ago, BTB said:

They may have picked up his 5th year option, but their is no way they are giving him a big contract for a 3 down player who makes so few impact plays. 
 

They would be crazy to give him a top 10 Linebacker contract. 

I agree with giving him the 5th year option just to take another peek around the curtain. But it's very doubtful he gets a big long term contract. 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, BTB said:

They may have picked up his 5th year option, but their is no way they are giving him a big contract for a 3 down player who makes so few impact plays. 
 

They would be crazy to give him a top 10 Linebacker contract. 

Prepare to be disappointed

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, PaoloBillsFanFromItaly said:

For example, he may shoot his gap and meet the pulling guard closing the gap of his responsibility, but he won't BEAT the pulling guard and make the tackle in the backfield.

He literally did that on Sunday. You should go watch the Cover1 breakdown of the defense against Miami.

 

In fact, he beat two blocks. He was blocked by two guys while Milano wasn't blocked at all (another mistake by Miami's poor OL, I assume). Milano slips through and makes the play and gets all the credit. Milano should absolutely get credit, but no casual fan sees Edmunds making an even more impressive play there. 

[LeGOATski]

14 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

What an absolutely perfect description of Tremaine. I cannot remember one big play he's made in his 4 years. Go ahead and call him a glorified 2nd strong safety based on the defense we run. And accumulating a bunch of tackles 3-4 yards downfield field doesn't excite me. He's even uninspiring when he rarely blitzes the qb. We all hoped in maybe be close to Keuckly but that's never going to happen. Great assessment BADOL.....

Some of you just have a terrible memory or maybe too selective.

 

I think it was the Rams last year when Edmunds stuffed a run behind the LOS to stop a 4th down. It was impressive. Or maybe it was SF. I would have to look back on it. I'm not saying he makes a ton of these plays, but the people saying he's made none are obviously exaggerating. 

[ctk232]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

I will agree with most of what you're saying

 

But there is a MIKE in a nickel defense and a WILL linebacker

 

Not in traditional 43 roles... The WILL (Milano ) actually lines up strongside in nickel...  

 

Because the two linebackers in the nickel set are basically mirroring inside backers in a 34... Not a traditional Mike and will role

 

 

 

 

 

For sure. If this technicality is needed then yes, there absolutely is a "Mike"/"Will" call for each defensive snap to coordinate assignments. But what those assignments are and what each position is asked to do are practically the same/interchangeable, and certainly aren't traditional as you mention. This was in regard to my first post, responding to someone wanting a traditional "run stuffing" MLB in this defense

[Rocky Landing]

12 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Some of you just have a terrible memory or maybe too selective.

 

I think it was the Rams last year when Edmunds stuffed a run behind the LOS to stop a 4th down. It was impressive. Or maybe it was SF. I would have to look back on it. I'm not saying he makes a ton of these plays, but the people saying he's made none are obviously exaggerating. 

I have a terrible memory for such things, but I feel I can say with confidence that when the Bills have been backed up to the end zone with goal to go at the one yard line, Edmunds has stopped blockers, and ball carriers dead in their tracks on multiple occasions. Maybe that's not considered a "splash play," but it has kept opponents out of the end zone.

 

And that's about as far as I'm probably going to go in this conversation. This seems to be one of those debates that gets dominated by the extremes from both sides. Too much intransigence. Although, I will say that from reading some of these arguments, I have adjusted my perspective on Edmunds, and his position. And, I stand by my initial point on Edmunds in this thread: While his development has been relatively slow, I believe he has yet to reach his potential.

[PaoloBillsFanFromItaly]

The debate is dominated by extremes because Tremaine is a former first round pick and a big investiment  by the organization. If Tremaine was a third round pick nobody would complain.

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, PaoloBillsFanFromItaly said:

The debate is dominated by extremes because Tremaine is a former first round pick and a big investiment  by the organization. If Tremaine was a third round pick nobody would complain.

If he was a 3rd round pick we’d be talking about how best to upgrade the position, not the potential (monster) contract his agent may think is coming based on his questionable Pro Bowl selections.