Highmark Stadium now requiring vaccination for entry

[Blainorama5]

Clearly Erie County decided enough was enough since the honor system definitely broke down.  I guarantee you they knew this decision would be controversial and would absolutely upset a lot of people.  But from their perspective, they had no choice but to try to protect people from themselves - for the COMMON good!

Many folks aren't happy about it, but it's still the right thing to do.

We are still in the middle of a pandemic here folks.  This isn't normal (hopefully) and NO ONE is happy about all the hoops we have to jump thru to try and get thru it.  If we all do our part, the sooner we can get back to living how we are used to.  And yelling at each other over the usual stuff...  (Can Josh ever stop fumbling?  Is Die Hard really a Christmas movie?)

 

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

[ArdmoreRyno]

8 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

So a draft is never an option it is dead??  Then why do we have to sign up for selective service at 18. Bottom line there are Federal Mandates. Have been through history and have been upheld all over history. 

This is your one argument. 

 

Okay dude. If we have WWIII and a draft for the first time in 50 years, then the DOD will make you get vaccinated. 😆

[SDS]

There is an awful lot of energy being completely wasted by people insisting that they can bet Hofstra will beat Ohio State straight up. It’s a vaccine not heroin. You’ll forget you had it done within a week. 

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, Blainorama5 said:

Clearly Erie County decided enough was enough since the honor system definitely broke down.  I guarantee you they knew this decision would be controversial and would absolutely upset a lot of people.  But from their perspective, they had no choice but to try to protect people from themselves - for the COMMON good!

Many folks aren't happy about it, but it's still the right thing to do.

We are still in the middle of a pandemic here folks.  This isn't normal (hopefully) and NO ONE is happy about all the hoops we have to jump thru to try and get thru it.  If we all do our part, the sooner we can get back to living how we are used to.  And yelling at each other over the usual stuff...  (Can Josh ever stop fumbling?  Is Die Hard really a Christmas movie?)

 

Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

 

We're the United (States) of America, and that makes things difficult sometimes.  You can say all these things, and to many they are absolutely justifiable, but to others, they see the fact they can fly to Miami this weekend and walk right in without a mask, vax or negative test.  

 

I'd hate for the NFL to do this, and i'm certainly not for it, but it would probably alleviate a lot of angst/community division if they put forth a league-wide stadium policy.  

[Careca]

17 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

If 'Traditional Techniques' are employed, (cutting stones by hand, and placing them by human power) such construction might take 200 years, or longer. (Cathedral of St. John The Divine, in Manhattan) (In progress) It is an apples,& oranges comparison.

We are not using outdated methods of drug/vaccine development, in the 21st. Century. The fact is, a Universal mRNA/ Corona Virus Vaccine was already in development for many years, before this unfortunate crisis hit.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7910833/

 

From your link:The global research and development of mRNA vaccines have been prodigious over the past decade, and the work in this field has been stimulated by the urgent need for rapid development of vaccines in response to an emergent disease such as the current COVID-19 pandemic. Nevertheless, there remain gaps in our understanding of the mechanism of action of mRNA vaccines, as well as their long-term performance in areas such as safety and efficacy.

 

Fair point, I can agree with that.

[Figster]

I think its important for everyone to remember that If large outbreaks start occuring that gets traced back to the stadium. The only way to prevent this from happening again are no fans in the stadiums. If I can respect your feelings when you choose not to become vaccinated. How about respecting my feelings by not depriving me of something I want because of the freedom of choice you made. I keep hearing this argument well If your vaccinated why should you care. I'll tell you why I care. The masks, the social distancing, the business closures and all the other restrictions and damage the pandemic causes doesn't stop happening until we stop the spread. I'm not sure what the average number of kids under 12 would be at a game. I'm sure its in the thousands.

[Beerball]

36 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

 

Your post might make you look pretty clueless.... and what you just called others. Stupid. 

There is NO federal requirement for vaccines. Zero. None. 

I don't read where he said federal, but maybe I missed it.  However, would you consider the military arms of the federal government?  Do the military require vaccinations?  Is this a new requirement?

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, Figster said:

I think its important for everyone to remember that If large outbreaks start occuring that gets traced back to the stadium. The only way to prevent this from happening again are no fans in the stadiums. If I can respect your feelings when you choose not to become vaccinated. How about respecting my feelings by not depriving me of something I want because of the freedom of choice you made. I keep hearing this argument well If your vaccinated why should you care. I'll tell you why I care. The masks, the social distancing, the business closures and all the other restrictions and damage the pandemic causes doesn't stop happening until we stop the spread. I'm not sure what the average number of kids under 12 would be at a game. I'm sure its in the thousands.

 

There's quite a bit of data from events showing large outbreaks have not been occurring due to large gatherings in outdoor stadiums.  

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by SCBills

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, Beerball said:

I don't read where he said federal, but maybe I missed it.  However, would you consider the military arms of the federal government?  Do the military require vaccinations?  Is this a new requirement?

 

The point is their is no genpop vaccinate or go to jail mandate. It is a straw man argument, since no one is suggesting that unvaccinated people go to jail for failure to abide by a governmental vaccine mandate.

[Blainorama5]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I'd hate for the NFL to do this, and i'm certainly not for it, but it would probably alleviate a lot of angst/community division if they put forth a league-wide stadium policy.  

In theory I would agree for consistency's sake, but unfortunately, the NFL's authority doesn't supersede local health directives.  This isn't an attempt to thwart people's personal liberties - it's an attempt to quell a PUBLIC HEALTH issue.  Plain and simple.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, billsfanmiamioh said:

So at the same time, one could also ask if this technology has been around for decades, “why now”? It’s not like vaccine development has been put on hold since for the last few decades. Just as it bugs you that people being up this point, it bugs me that people are looked down on for bringing it up. John’s Hopkins has something on their website that shows the typical timeline for vaccine development. Sounds to me like a lot of the reduction in timeline for this one was consolidation of the clinical trial phases. I get that there is probably a lot of red tape in these things, but reading that the parts designed to ensure safety were “shortened” or done concurrently does not exactly give me any warm fuzzies. I think it would be nuts to not have any reservations at all for something that came out in a year as opposed to 5-10. Remember when the talk of a vaccine came around? Seemed like general consensus was 2-3 years best case scenario. Remember J & J having to pitch a million doses when they found out they were contaminated in the manufacturing process? Ever read the report on that? Covid obviously dictated some extreme measures but I just don’t agree with the “take the shot and shut up” mob mentality. I made the decision to get it and protect myself, I don’t vilify those that didn’t.

 

I don't think it's an unreasonable concern to bring up, but at this point it's been brought up and addressed and brought up and addressed.  Which to me moves it from a concern, to an excuse.  But maybe you're right and I'm wrong and there isn't actually a lot out there that does a good job of debunking this, especially if you were looking at a reasonable site and got that impression.  So I'm on it. 

 

I will put up front, though, that concerns which were reasonable a year ago IMO are a lot less reasonable a year later, with more than 200 million doses served in the US alone and full FDA approval.

 

The big place the timeline got compressed was in development, and the reason it got compressed was by the nature of these two vaccines.  They've been pursued for decades because they can be so fast.  The manufacturing process is in place, the characterization tests are in place, you just stick in the DNA or mRNA for the protein you want to make as soon as the sequence is known (and it was known mid-January) and start testing in animals.  The reason more traditional conjugated protein vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines took longer is that a unique manufacturing process and to some extent unique characterization tests have to be developed and vetted for each new vaccine.

 

In this case, the development further accelerated because they used learnings from vaccine development for the similar SARS and MERS.  They took a protein mutation that locks the spike protein in the pre-bound state, the idea being it would develop better neutralizing antibodies (antibodies that prevent binding to cells) that way.  That wasn't the only thing they tried of course - I think the initial animal studies were at least 50 different candidates and Pfizer actually took 4 different candidates through early clinical trials.  But it's not uncommon for scientists to spend several years testing different proteins or pieces of protein to see what will give them the desirable immune response and avoid undesirable responses, in animal models.  Here they used prior knowledge to go right for the gold.

 

The combining of clinical trials is actually NBD for a vaccine, and the reason it isn't done more often is really risk to the company, not safety.  

 

With drugs, phase I is safety and phase II is "first in patient", the readout on whether the drug actually works and large-scale development should continue.  With vaccines, because the point is to give them to healthy people and get an immune response, you look for immune response and get initial "does it work?" info from Phase I. But still, most companies want to make just enough material for Phase II and get a larger readout before they go "full speed ahead".  Phase II material is usually made at a small pilot plant under the same strict regulations as clinical manufacture.  The FDA requires that phase III trials must use the exact manufacturing process you intend to use for commercial manufacture and take place at the same facilities.   Any improvements in yield or purity or length, do it before Phase III.  So normally you complete Phase II and get an initial readout on how the drug or vaccine works, THEN start scaling up the manufacture.

 

In this case, the manufacturers said "damn the cost, we're gonna go right from Phase I to clinical manufacture.  Moderna said it because they took money from President Trump's Operation Warpspeed and Dolly Parton etc etc. so it wasn't entirely their dime if it fizzled.   Pfizer did it because Bourla (CEO) told them to and because they have the deep pockets (didn't take external development money).  It was a huge financial risk

 

But from a safety viewpoint it was no big deal because you don't enroll and inject 40,000 people all at once, you enroll and inject about the same number of people you would in a normal phase II trial and just put in a benchmark where you package up the data you collect on that subset and go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for safety concerns as well as efficacy, then give it to the FDA to comb while meanwhile you continue enrolling volunteers and inject as soon as you get the green light to proceed.  But the pause to finalize and scale up manufacture and produce commercial-grade vaccine wasn't there, because they used the manufacturing process and commercial grade production for phase II.

 

I was actually part of the Phase III clinical trial for Rubella vaccine in 1968.  Rubella is 100% non-fatal disease which half the infected people didn't know they had, and the only way the vaccine was going to do what it was intended to do (prevent infection during early pregnancy) was if vaccination were widespread.  We all lined up and got vaccinated, "save the babies".  But back in the 1960s when people were actually seeing the ravages of many of the diseases for which vaccines are common in the wild, there was general agreement that vaccines were a Public Benefit.  Someone who suggested they were gonna wait an extra 6 years to get injected because that's how long development ought to take and it was suspicious - what corners did they cut to develop the vaccine so fast? would probably have been regarded as a bit anti-social.   We were proud of science and technology and welcomed scientific advances, and we were community-minded.

 

As for "why now", development took place for SARS and for MERS and for Ebola, but none of those diseases took off and became a global threat.  They weren't that contagious.  There's been development for cancer treatments, and development for flu, but with flu they're going up against an established vaccine with an established safety record, so the bar is higher, and the acceptance is lower.

 

Hope this helps, and fair warning, I may split this off to the Off the Wall thread.

 

 

[Figster]

4 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

There's quite a bit of data from events showing large outbreaks have not been occurring due to large gatherings in outdoor stadiums.  

 

We just had one of them studies featured here on TBD.  The co author won't go to football games because of the dangers.

[loyal2dagame]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think it's an unreasonable concern to bring up, but at this point it's been brought up and addressed and brought up and addressed.  Which to me moves it from a concern, to an excuse.  But maybe you're right and I'm wrong and there isn't actually a lot out there that does a good job of debunking this, especially if you were looking at a reasonable site and got that impression.  So I'm on it. 

 

I will put up front, though, that concerns which were reasonable a year ago IMO are a lot less reasonable a year later, with more than 200 million doses served in the US alone and full FDA approval.

 

The big place the timeline got compressed was in development, and the reason it got compressed was by the nature of these two vaccines.  They've been pursued for decades because they can be so fast.  The manufacturing process is in place, the characterization tests are in place, you just stick in the DNA or mRNA for the protein you want to make as soon as the sequence is known (and it was known mid-January) and start testing in animals.  The reason more traditional conjugated protein vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines took longer is that a unique manufacturing process and to some extent unique characterization tests have to be developed and vetted for each new vaccine.

 

In this case, the development further accelerated because they used learnings from vaccine development for the similar SARS and MERS.  They took a protein mutation that locks the spike protein in the pre-bound state, the idea being it would develop better neutralizing antibodies (antibodies that prevent binding to cells) that way.  That wasn't the only thing they tried of course - I think the initial animal studies were at least 50 different candidates and Pfizer actually took 4 different candidates through early clinical trials.  But it's not uncommon for scientists to spend several years testing different proteins or pieces of protein to see what will give them the desirable immune response and avoid undesirable responses, in animal models.  Here they used prior knowledge to go right for the gold.

 

The combining of clinical trials is actually NBD for a vaccine, and the reason it isn't done more often is really risk to the company, not safety.  

 

With drugs, phase I is safety and phase II is "first in patient", the readout on whether the drug actually works and large-scale development should continue.  With vaccines, because the point is to give them to healthy people and get an immune response, you look for immune response and get initial "does it work?" info from Phase I. But still, most companies want to make just enough material for Phase II and get a larger readout before they go "full speed ahead".  Phase II material is usually made at a small pilot plant under the same strict regulations as clinical manufacture.  The FDA requires that phase III trials must use the exact manufacturing process you intend to use for commercial manufacture and take place at the same facilities.   Any improvements in yield or purity or length, do it before Phase III.  So normally you complete Phase II and get an initial readout on how the drug or vaccine works, THEN start scaling up the manufacture.

 

In this case, the manufacturers said "damn the cost, we're gonna go right from Phase I to clinical manufacture.  Moderna said it because they took money from President Trump's Operation Warpspeed and Dolly Parton etc etc. so it wasn't entirely their dime if it fizzled.   Pfizer did it because Bourla (CEO) told them to and because they have the deep pockets (didn't take external development money).  It was a huge financial risk

 

But from a safety viewpoint it was no big deal because you don't enroll and inject 40,000 people all at once, you enroll and inject about the same number of people you would in a normal phase II trial and just put in a benchmark where you package up the data you collect on that subset and go over it with a fine tooth comb looking for safety concerns as well as efficacy, then give it to the FDA to comb while meanwhile you continue enrolling volunteers and inject as soon as you get the green light to proceed.  But the pause to finalize and scale up manufacture and produce commercial-grade vaccine wasn't there, because they used the manufacturing process and commercial grade production for phase II.

 

I was actually part of the Phase III clinical trial for Rubella vaccine in 1968.  Rubella is 100% non-fatal disease which half the infected people didn't know they had, and the only way the vaccine was going to do what it was intended to do (prevent infection during early pregnancy) was if vaccination were widespread.  We all lined up and got vaccinated, "save the babies".  But back in the 1960s when people were actually seeing the ravages of many of the diseases for which vaccines are common in the wild, there was general agreement that vaccines were a Public Benefit.  Someone who suggested they were gonna wait an extra 6 years to get injected because that's how long development ought to take and it was suspicious - what corners did they cut to develop the vaccine so fast? would probably have been regarded as a bit anti-social.   We were proud of science and technology and welcomed scientific advances, and we were community-minded.

 

As for "why now", development took place for SARS and for MERS and for Ebola, but none of those diseases took off and became a global threat.  They weren't that contagious.  There's been development for cancer treatments, and development for flu, but with flu they're going up against an established vaccine with an established safety record, so the bar is higher, and the acceptance is lower.

 

Hope this helps, and fair warning, I may split this off to the Off the Wall thread.

 

 

Good info in this post right here. Thank you! 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

13 minutes ago, Figster said:

I think its important for everyone to remember that If large outbreaks start occuring that gets traced back to the stadium. The only way to prevent this from happening again are no fans in the stadiums. If I can respect your feelings when you choose not to become vaccinated. How about respecting my feelings by not depriving me of something I want because of the freedom of choice you made. I keep hearing this argument well If your vaccinated why should you care. I'll tell you why I care. The masks, the social distancing, the business closures and all the other restrictions and damage the pandemic causes doesn't stop happening until we stop the spread. I'm not sure what the average number of kids under 12 would be at a game. I'm sure its in the thousands.

If vaccinated people weren't getting Covid, I'd be 100% in agreement with you. The reality is the the vaccination does not stop the spread. Hence the outrage. 

[Just Jack]

21 minutes ago, SDS said:

It’s a vaccine not heroin. You’ll forget you had it done within a week. 

 

I don't know about that, I'm itching to get that booster.  

[loyal2dagame]

2 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

If vaccinated people weren't getting Covid, I'd be 100% in agreement with you. The reality is the the vaccination does not stop the spread. Hence the outrage. 

Fire extinguishers don't prevent fires,  but they help to minimize the damage

Edited September 15, 2021 by loyal2dagame

[Rubes]

4 minutes ago, Figster said:

We just had one of them studies featured here on TBD.  The co author won't go to football games because of the dangers.

 

Just to clarify, not a co-author; I authored the accompanying editorial. And yes, I wouldn't go to the opener because of the risk.

 

With the vaccine requirement, however, I may come back for a later game...

 

[MAJBobby]

25 minutes ago, ArdmoreRyno said:

This is your one argument. 

 

Okay dude. If we have WWIII and a draft for the first time in 50 years, then the DOD will make you get vaccinated. 😆

Glad you admitted that there is a Federal Mandate in place.  

[Captain Caveman]

12 minutes ago, Blainorama5 said:

In theory I would agree for consistency's sake, but unfortunately, the NFL's authority doesn't supersede local health directives.  This isn't an attempt to thwart people's personal liberties - it's an attempt to quell a PUBLIC HEALTH issue.  Plain and simple.

The NFL certainly as a a private business could choose to require its customers to be vaccinated, just like any other business.

[Rubes]

3 minutes ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

If vaccinated people weren't getting Covid, I'd be 100% in agreement with you. The reality is the the vaccination does not stop the spread. Hence the outrage. 

 

Come on, man. You know better than that.