Daboll on what went right/wrong

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I "get it" that the coaches have no obligation to share their innermost thoughts and plans with the press - and in fact shouldn't.

 

But there were some aspects of this interview that really troubled me.

 

The first was when he was asked if the trick plays were something he had to resort to because of how Pitt's D was playing them.  He said "no, we've been working on them since training camp and we thought that was the right call".  Especially for the backward pass, when the O has been failing to "sell" misdirection plays all game and failing to win and sustain blocks - WTF Daboll, why did you think that?  It seems like a serious judgement gap.

 

The second was when he was asked if he saw Allen finish the game with 51 passing attempts, does he think the offense needs to be more balanced? and he said "we try to do whatever we can do".  Again, he's under no obligation to share his self-criticism with the press, but I get the feeling that he honestly doesn't feel the need to re-consider his approach at all.  It seems like he's pass doesn't work, pass pass pass.  Rush gets 1 yd whups run game not working, Give Up.

 

At 9:45, Daboll was asked by Sal Capaccio about the 1 for 4 skunking in the RZ and why no shots to the endzone.  He said "at that point, we weren't interested in holding the ball too long.  We were trying to get it out of our hands and get it into their hands so they could catch and run.  The longer you have to let a play develop and let a receiver get downfield, the more the pass rush is coming so we were trying to balance that".  I need to look at the sets they were using in or near the RZ, but to @BADOLBILZ point, this is a total head-scratcher on why Daboll would feel he should persist with the 4 and 5 WR sets instead of swapping to a (1,1) or (0,2) set and having extra blockers in there to give plays time to develop. 

 

The most troubling to me was 4:25 where he was asked about the Steelers being able to bring pressure with 3 or 4 and he said "give credit to the Steelers, the last couple years have kind of been like that against this team, give credit to the Steelers, give credit to Coach Butler and to the players that they've got, they're hard to deal with". 

 

It basically sounded as though he was conceding that we just don't have either the personnel OR the plan to deal with a team that can pressure with 3 or 4 guys, which is a terrible thing to feel. 

Now, that said - maybe I will watch the All-22 and feel that there was a plan that was better than it looked, and Josh wasn't making the right reads or choices.  Maybe that's what Josh meant post-game when he said he needed to take the short stuff early and maybe things would have been different.  In which case maybe Daboll needs to be down on the sidelines where he can thump Josh over the head with a Microsoft Surface when he comes off the field and yell "take the mother*****ing checkdown you mother*****ing idiot" if that's what it takes.

 

And also, dealing with effectively a new team each season, I suppose there is going to be an adjustment period where the coaches think the Jimmies and Joes can handle plan X and it turns out they can't - but why not adjust then?

 

 

 

 

I have a nagging concern that perhaps the shotgun, empty formation stuff is more about their concern that Allen might regress if put under center and asked to run play action.

 

The RPO version of play action is better than nothing but it isn't terribly convincing with Allen.    He's a good runner but I think teams will take their chances on designed runs with him so I don't expect to see more of that.

 

But being under center and turning your head away from the defense for a half second on play action is very different.    I think he needs to be able to do that.   Maybe the Bills are trying to figure out how not to go that route but I don't think he can max out his game until he gets comfortable selling run fakes by taking his eyes off the secondary for a split second.   Without that every time he extends to hand off defenses know it's a run.   Which would explain why they are just emptying the backfield when not running.

[PolishDave]

29 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Is that the Bills' focus, or the difference in QB personalities/talent?

 

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there have been plenty of short/intermediate plays called that Josh himself turned into home run attempts.

 

It is the same offense and playbook Daboll had when he was in New England. It's just a matter of which parts he is using here, and how the players are executing it differently. We absolutely have those same running plays and short yardage pass plays. We've used them before. We just didnt on Sunday. Which is what makes it even more frustrating.

 I don't think it is the same playbook.   The plays don't look similar at all to me.

 

How often did the Patriots go 5 wide?

 

Daboll likely borrowed whatever he liked from the Patriots' playbook when he was there.   But, what I see on the field looks quite a bit different.

 

I certainly could be wrong though.   Maybe we will start seeing a bunch of screens to Singletary a bunch of quick slants to Beasley and a bunch of passes to Knox in the red zone.

 

Seems to me that Daboll is trying to be more of an innovator as opposed to sticking to the tried and true.   

 

Daboll seems like the adult version of a happy kid at Christmas time who just got a shiny new toy (named Josh Allen) to play with.   He will test his new toy and abuse it from time to time doing inappropriate things.   I think he is going to ram the toy into the wall a few times to see if it breaks or not.   He will leave it in the driveway occasionally so his dad accidentally runs it over with the station wagon.  He will leave it out in the rain from time to time.    The neighbor's dog might take a dump on it because it was left out in the sandbox.    It will get kicked around a lot.   It'll get some paint scraped off it and a dent here or there.  Fortunately I think Josh Allen is well built like those metal Caterpillar Tonka trucks we played with as kids.  😆

[PolishDave]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

I have a nagging concern that perhaps the shotgun, empty formation stuff is more about their concern that Allen might regress if put under center and asked to run play action.

 

The RPO version of play action is better than nothing but it isn't terribly convincing with Allen.    He's a good runner but I think teams will take their chances on designed runs with him so I don't expect to see more of that.

 

But being under center and turning your head away from the defense for a half second on play action is very different.    I think he needs to be able to do that.   Maybe the Bills are trying to figure out how not to go that route but I don't think he can max out his game until he gets comfortable selling run fakes by taking his eyes off the secondary for a split second.   Without that every time he extends to hand off defenses know it's a run.   Which would explain why they are just emptying the backfield when not running.

 

Don't all gunslingers prefer to face the defense the whole time?    Gives them more time to process the field and notice defenders "actual" intention rather than their pre-snap presentation?    Steelers do this with Big Ben, no?   Kelly was a very effective shotgun quarterback - while still running lots of draws and shovel passes to Thurman.     Seems like it makes them a slightly more effective passer at the sacrifice of not having the play action option.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 I don't think it is the same playbook.   The plays don't look similar at all to me.

 

How often did the Patriots go 5 wide?

 

Daboll likely borrowed whatever he liked from the Patriots' playbook when he was there.   But, what I see on the field looks quite a bit different.

 

I certainly could be wrong though.   Maybe we will start seeing a bunch of screens to Singletary a bunch of quick slants to Beasley and a bunch of passes to Knox in the red zone.

 

Seems to me that Daboll is trying to be more of an innovator as opposed to sticking to the tried and true.   

 

Daboll seems like the adult version of a happy kid at Christmas time who just got a shiny new toy (named Josh Allen) to play with.   He will test his new toy and abuse it from time to time doing inappropriate things.   I think he is going to ram the toy into the wall a few times to see if it breaks or not.   He will leave it in the driveway occasionally so his dad accidentally runs it over with the station wagon.  He will leave it out in the rain from time to time.    The neighbor's dog might take a dump on it because it was left out in the sandbox.    It will get kicked around a lot.   It'll get some paint scraped off it and a dent here or there.  Fortunately I think Josh Allen is well built like those metal Caterpillar Tonka trucks we played with as kids.  😆

 

The Pats ran plenty of 5 wide. It was normally, though not always, with a back on the field and split out but Brady liked empty against certain teams. They actually used it a couple of times against Pittsburgh's D to good effect although it was in the LeBeau era I believe rather than against Butler's defense. New England were going empty more than normal as way back as 2009 / 2010. 

[PolishDave]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Pats ran plenty of 5 wide. It was normally, though not always, with a back on the field and split out but Brady liked empty against certain teams. They actually used it a couple of times against Pittsburgh's D to good effect although it was in the LeBeau era I believe rather than against Butler's defense. New England were going empty more than normal as way back as 2009 / 2010. 

 

Could very well be.  I don't recall it being their norm.  Norm as I recall was having a back in the backfield.  But I drink a lot when watching the games. 

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

I have a nagging concern that perhaps the shotgun, empty formation stuff is more about their concern that Allen might regress if put under center and asked to run play action.

 

The RPO version of play action is better than nothing but it isn't terribly convincing with Allen.    He's a good runner but I think teams will take their chances on designed runs with him so I don't expect to see more of that.

 

But being under center and turning your head away from the defense for a half second on play action is very different.    I think he needs to be able to do that.   Maybe the Bills are trying to figure out how not to go that route but I don't think he can max out his game until he gets comfortable selling run fakes by taking his eyes off the secondary for a split second.   Without that every time he extends to hand off defenses know it's a run.   Which would explain why they are just emptying the backfield when not running.

RPO doesn’t involve QB runs, you’re thinking of read option which we don’t use.

[Eastport bills]

4 hours ago, PolishDave said:

Tale of 2 offensive coordinators.

 

Greg Roman - Lopsided running focus

Brian Daboll - Lopsided passing focus

 

If I have to err on one side or the other, I'll take Daboll's aggressiveness every time.    Even in a loss to Pittsburgh.

 

It is so much more fun watching an offense that is always looking for the homerun play - even on fourth and 8.     

 

And when they are clicking.....man it is fun!

 

If they just get Josh to dial it back a hair until things are obviously going in their favor.   Then step on the gas.

Fun is great,but winning championships are what this club is looking for. If you aren't multidimensional, these NFL athletes will defend you and shut you down. Josh was our primary running threat, he got shut down. The inability to run in short yardage caused that 4th down debacle. Dabol has to incorporate running with our backs to open up things for Josh. If he doesn't because he knows better, we're going to put our franchise QB vulnerable to hard hits.

[billybrew1]

4 hours ago, BringBackFlutie said:

Clearly. 

 

However, the general sentiment after the AFCCG was that we need to be able to use the RBs and TEs effectively when other things aren't working.  The coaches went into the season saying that the players at those positions aren't a problem. 

 

...So are they really not a problem, and Daboll never figured out how to use them in the exact aforementioned situations; or are they a problem, and the real solution is that we're just sort of going to ignore them and hope nobody notices that we still don't use them?

How many touches did Singletary have? I thought he surpassed 15 which should be around his rate.

Knox had a couple big catches and had his fair share of snaps.

 

You don't attack a strong suite with your weak suite. WR is our strong suite, Pittsburgh's is cornerback.

Our five had to block their four and couldn't get it done.

We beat them twice, they beat us once.

Let's move on!

It's time to....

Squish the Fish!

 

Go Bills!

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

RPO doesn’t involve QB runs, you’re thinking of read option which we don’t use.

 

Yeah the post is about play action and the lack thereof in the Bills offense and why.   Wasn't well stated and a clumsy mixing of points(designed run from empty backfield), but yes I do mean RPO.

 

And no the Bills don't run "read option"(which to clarify, is a dedicated run only play because the OL are moving downfield to block at the snap) and yes I am convinced that teams are more than happy to let Allen execute designed running plays............aside from perhaps within 5 yards of the goal line........so they really do not serve as a deterrent to just rushing the QB with abandon from an empty backfield. 

 

An empty-backfield Allen is the best a defense can hope for, IMO.  Add in referees willingness to throw holding flags again and a wide open, unobstructed view for officials to watch 5 blockers hold 4 gap-responsibility-absolved pass rushers.......it's a recipe for dink and dunk football with predictable penalties sprinkled in.    And that's literally what has happened over and over in both the preseason and the first regular season game.    

 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Yeah the post is about play action and the lack thereof in the Bills offense and why.   Wasn't well stated and a clumsy mixing of points(designed run from empty backfield), but yes I do mean RPO.

 

And no the Bills don't run "read option"(which to clarify, is a dedicated run only play because the OL are moving downfield to block at the snap) and yes I am convinced that teams are more than happy to let Allen execute designed running plays............aside from perhaps within 5 yards of the goal line........so they really do not serve as a deterrent to just rushing the QB with abandon from an empty backfield. 

 

An empty-backfield Allen is the best a defense can hope for, IMO.  Add in referees willingness to throw holding flags again and a wide open, unobstructed view for officials to watch 5 blockers hold 4 gap-responsibility-absolved pass rushers.......it's a recipe for dink and dunk football with predictable penalties sprinkled in.    And that's literally what has happened over and over in both the preseason and the first regular season game.    

 

Yep, and further re: the conversation on Allen: I absolutely loathe when they call those QB draws. I understand it's just basically a check when he sees a light box but still...this staff clearly understands the concept of EV (or EPA which ever you prefer) and taking your MVP QB and running the ball with him is just so stupidly negative EV I can't even begin to describe how much I hate it. It just screams 'we don't know what to call here and we've lost our feel for the drive so let's try to get some easy yards'. tldr Cannot stand the QB draw and iirc there were about 5 of them on Sunday.

[BillMafia716ix]

Making Zack Moss inactive vs. a tough physical Steelers defense was a cocky move. It was literally….hey we have all these WR’s let’s go empty and throw it all game. It was a cocky gameplan and it backfired. 

[HappyDays]

I think the QB draws out of empty are just to keep the defense honest. As others have pointed out you can't sell a run play in empty. It's like 3rd down pass coverage on every play, the defense doesn't have to think about it. So I think Daboll figures put the QB draws on tape and make defenses at least think about it. I'm certainly not a fan of that strategy, I'd rather just keep the RB in the pocket to either hand the ball off or pass protect.

[Da webster guy]

7 hours ago, Figster said:

Teams figure you out in this league. 

 

Did you watch the last two games?

 

There is no reason why Knox and Singletary should not be a bigger part of the game plan. None.

 

Agreed.  actually the last three games our offense has stunk.  Don't forget the Ravens game where our offense scored a whopping 10 pts at home.

 

I'm glad Daboll is back as our OC, and he seems to be good at what he does, but he really knows how to make our offensive line look bad with his predictability. 

 

I'd love to have our new look pass rush get to play against a Daboll offense, just pin back and attack the QB 50 times a game.

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think the QB draws out of empty are just to keep the defense honest. As others have pointed out you can't sell a run play in empty. It's like 3rd down pass coverage on every play, the defense doesn't have to think about it. So I think Daboll figures put the QB draws on tape and make defenses at least think about it. I'm certainly not a fan of that strategy, I'd rather just keep the RB in the pocket to either hand the ball off or pass protect.

 

It doesn't keep them honest.   The Steelers were largely indifferent to Allen's designed runs.   Modern defense isn't about preventing modest gains like that it's about making teams work their way down a long field without making enough mistakes to kill their drive...........and tryna help them make mistakes with TFL's, sacks and turnovers.    It's not full-on MLB "3 true outcomes"......and the NFL game by design is somewhat crafted to prevent such statistical manipulation of the sport.......but teams really aren't sweating the small stuff like that on defense.  

 

 I'm not a big proponent of running the football more.........but there are going to be games and opponents where you gotta' be able to take advantage of them selling out for pass defense.    And it's not just to "keep them honest".........running the ball physically takes the starch out of an opposing defense.   

 

 

[Meatloaf63]

8 hours ago, FireChans said:

Our strength is our QB and our WR’s. Did you watch last season?

Yes, I watched us get shut down most of the play offs, I’d like us to raise our game to handle pressure better.

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, PolishDave said:

Tale of 2 offensive coordinators.

 

Greg Roman - Lopsided running focus

Brian Daboll - Lopsided passing focus

 

If I have to err on one side or the other, I'll take Daboll's aggressiveness every time.    Even in a loss to Pittsburgh.

 

It is so much more fun watching an offense that is always looking for the homerun play - even on fourth and 8.     

 

And when they are clicking.....man it is fun!

 

If they just get Josh to dial it back a hair until things are obviously going in their favor.   Then step on the gas.

 

People have been saying for 20+ years that NFL is a passing league.  Each year, that's more and more true.  Seeing the trend, Beane and McD went all in on the passing game.  

On defense, we run Nickel about 90% of the time - most in the NFL.  One of our 2 starting LBs is a former safety.  We're built to stop the pass.

 

On offense, McD hired Daboll as OC - a guy with a reputation for being good at the passing game, weak at the running game.  Then Beane, McD, and Daboll built our offense around Allen.   

 

Yesterday's performance notwithstanding, our offensive lineman are almost to a man, better at pass pro than run blocking.  We have ace WRs and mediocre RBs.  We're built to throw the ball.  Last year, a staggering 73.5% of our yards come through the air.  

 

There used to be something in the NFL called "passing downs" but not in Buffalo Bills land.  The term is meaninglessly axiomatic  in WNY: every down is a passing down.  

 

The problem with building a team entirely around the pass is that if the QB is having a bad day, we don't have much of an alternative.  The 90s Bills could win on the ground or in the air.  This team needs to air it out.  When we can't, we lose.  

[SoCal Deek]

32 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

People have been saying for 20+ years that NFL is a passing league.  Each year, that's more and more true.  Seeing the trend, Beane and McD went all in on the passing game.  

On defense, we run Nickel about 90% of the time - most in the NFL.  One of our 2 starting LBs is a former safety.  We're built to stop the pass.

 

On offense, McD hired Daboll as OC - a guy with a reputation for being good at the passing game, weak at the running game.  Then Beane, McD, and Daboll built our offense around Allen.   

 

Yesterday's performance notwithstanding, our offensive lineman are almost to a man, better at pass pro than run blocking.  We have ace WRs and mediocre RBs.  We're built to throw the ball.  Last year, a staggering 73.5% of our yards come through the air.  

 

There used to be something in the NFL called "passing downs" but not in Buffalo Bills land.  The term is meaninglessly axiomatic  in WNY: every down is a passing down.  

 

The problem with building a team entirely around the pass is that if the QB is having a bad day, we don't have much of an alternative.  The 90s Bills could win on the ground or in the air.  This team needs to air it out.  When we can't, we lose.  

I’m not sure that’s what this discussion is about. The problem with the offense is that they’re lining up in a formation that tells the defense it’s a passing play before the ball is snapped. That gives a TREMENDOUS advantage to the defense. You hope to get a split second of doubt out of the defense with play action and the occasional running play. Heck five wides pretty much negates a screen pass! Way, way too limiting.

Edited September 14, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[JPP]

8 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Would hate to run into him in a dark alley.

Yeah he might eat you 

[hondo in seattle]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure that’s what this discussion is about. The problem with the offense is that they’re lining up in a formation that tells the defense it’s a passing play before the ball is snapped. That gives a TREMENDOUS advantage to the defense. You hope to get a split second of doubt out of the defense with play action and the occasional running play. Heck five wides pretty much negates a screen pass! Way, way too limiting.

 

I agree, it's way too limiting. 

 

I think every DC in the league knows Daboll is a pass-first guy.  So I don't think the formation really matters all that much.  Whether Motor is in the backfield or not, the defense is expecting pass.  

 

Ideally, an offense can attack the entire field.  It can run between - or outside - the tackles.  It can pass short, middle, or deep - to the sideline or between the hash marks.  When a defense is forced to defend everything, it often fails.  But Daboll doesn't put defenses in that position.  

 

Yet, for all of Daboll's flaws, the Bills averaged over 30 points a game last season.  He's clearly doing something right.  

[Mango]

8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This is literally the Patriots offense that they ran for 20 years, won 6 Super Bowls, and built a dynasty with.

 

I dont think the overall scheme of "pass first, use short passes as your running game" is the issue, as much as it was the specific game plan and play calling out of that offense in a single week. The frustrating part is there are huge parts of that scheme which arent 5-wide and which utilize RBs and TEs. He just refused to use it on Sunday, which is a problem. 3 years into this scheme, it should have been fairly easy to adjust to something everyone is familiar with. He simply refused to.

Right. I think you elude to the issue. The issue isn’t necessary the “short pass to replace the run” it’s that they don’t even attempt to use it, or try to run the ball regularly, or try get the TE involved regularly to start picking up 3-5 yards with relative certainty. 
 

I do think trying to turn our run game into something it’s not with the same personnel over and over again (OL and RB1) is more of an uphill climb than changing some of the route concepts in the passing game to help facilitate certain situations/match ups. Ultimately I think that also helps the run game as well.