McDermott, Daboll, Frazier zoom session 9/13

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Momentum is a big thing and when we didn't convert you could feel that air leave the stadium, and it also impacted the defense.

 

Not an excuse.  But we can't expect the defense to bail out the offense constantly.

 

To answer your question, it's nonsense because:

Steelers get paid too, and have some very good offensive players as well.  Not like they lit us up either.  Ben did his old self and made a good escaping pocket play to hit Freimermuth down the seam.  Claypool got Levi to give up a big DPI, questionable, but those 2 plays were the difference for 10 points essentially.

 

Maybe we had different expectations, but I thought Pittsburgh's offense would still be able to score on us in this game, despite the new oline.  Ben is not once what he was, but like last season, Steelers were very much a "30 minute team" in games.  They are exactly the same in that aspect, atbleast Game 1.  That said, I predicted a 30-20 Bills victory, and we gave up 16 points.  I don't care if those all came in the 1st half, or 2nd half.  To me, we gave away the Momentum after both failed 4th down conversions.  That was the clear turning point. 

 

If you're making the point that the failed 4th down conversions were a turning point and there was bad decision making on both whether to go for it and on play calling - I 100% agree.

[Reks Ryan]

it was a bad offensive game plan.  IMO it wasn't the pass vs run ratio that was so bad, it was the formations.    Last year they were pass heavy, but mostly out of 11 personnel, 1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR.     I believe around 70% of their plays last year were 11 personnel and just over 15% with 4 or 5 receiver sets.    Yesterday they ran more the 50% of their plays with 4 or 5 receivers. 

 

The Steelers had a good game plan against those formations and it was evident early on that the Bills O was not creating mismatches.  In the end there were very few plays with open receivers down field or even plays where receivers could catch the ball on the run underneath with any space.    Not sure why Daboll thought it was good idea to keep utilizing the formations that were clearly giving the edge to the Steelers.  The Bills finally adjusted on the 4th QTR drive where Singletary ripped off a couple nice runs, but it was too late.  

 

[stevewin]

3 hours ago, SDS said:

 

 

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

[MasterStrategist]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you're making the point that the failed 4th down conversions were a turning point and there was bad decision making on both whether to go for it and on play calling - I 100% agree.

Yes, but more than that, I think it had a huge impact on the defensive performance from then on out.  Second guessing is easy tho, so I trust coach and like his aggressiveness.

 

Yep, we are on the same page with most of this. I just think it was alot to ask the defense to contain Steelers all game long, they are too talented and well coached.  At some point they were going to break through. 

 

On to Miami, I liked Frazier quotes and Poyers today about needing to get takeaways.  That was the only thing missing yesterday, although Tre's pick should have been it, but hopefully they can get that going this week

9 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

That was literally the same play Daboll called.  I don't think it schematically was any different, just poorly executed.

 

Allen took the snap to the left, like he was running the speed option.  And the defense alignment was ready for it, even Tomlin called that out in his presser.

 

Either Josh should have audibled, or coaches should have recognized the defense formation and called timeout

[PolishDave]

45 minutes ago, Reks Ryan said:

it was a bad offensive game plan.  IMO it wasn't the pass vs run ratio that was so bad, it was the formations.    Last year they were pass heavy, but mostly out of 11 personnel, 1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR.     I believe around 70% of their plays last year were 11 personnel and just over 15% with 4 or 5 receiver sets.    Yesterday they ran more the 50% of their plays with 4 or 5 receivers. 

 

The Steelers had a good game plan against those formations and it was evident early on that the Bills O was not creating mismatches.  In the end there were very few plays with open receivers down field or even plays where receivers could catch the ball on the run underneath with any space.    Not sure why Daboll thought it was good idea to keep utilizing the formations that were clearly giving the edge to the Steelers.  The Bills finally adjusted on the 4th QTR drive where Singletary ripped off a couple nice runs, but it was too late.  

 

 

Seemed to me in that game that having more than 3 receivers out there for Allen was kind of a waste anyway.    If he isn't going to throw the ball to the checkdown guy(s), then why even have those guys out there running routes?   May as well have extra blockers to give time for the deep routes to develop.

 

If the Bills are going to continue to flood the field with that many receivers, then Allen has to have the maturity to throw to the guys who are going to be open with regularity there, the ckeckdown short route runner.

 

It would also help if we had short route runners that were exceptional at the run after catch.    All those years of watching the Patriots throw 4 yard passes that some midget receiver would turn into 10-12 yard gains comes to mind.   A Tyreek Hill would be nice.

[YoloinOhio]

25 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Don't know how Daboll watched that play then drew up and practiced whatever the hell that was yesterday - was like how can we take this play that worked and change it just enought so that it will be a catasrophe

I think one of his flaws is just that he gets too cute 

[stevewin]

32 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

That was literally the same play Daboll called.  I don't think it schematically was any different, just poorly executed.

 

Allen took the snap to the left, like he was running the speed option.  And the defense alignment was ready for it, even Tomlin called that out in his presser.

 

Either Josh should have audibled, or coaches should have recognized the defense formation and called timeout

Daboll's 2021 version had a receiver out wide to the left, who then came into the back field, bringing an extra defender down on the edge right where the play was going to go (vs the 2004 version which had the TE shift from left to right - drawing attention to the right side) - then in 2004 version Bledsoe takes the snap and does a hard fake sneak to the right (whre the TE had shifted - presumably to block), drawing even more attention to that side - while 2021 version Josh barely takes a 1/4 step "fake" then stands back and chucks it.  For trick plays the devil is in the details - if they actually practiced it in OTAs and TC they should have gotten the design/details right (the biggest thing was why change the design of the play that worked perfectly to have a receiver bring a defender down to where the fake was going to go - just stupid)

Edited September 14, 2021 by stevewin

[MasterStrategist]

59 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Daboll's 2021 version had a receiver out wide to the left, who then came into the back field, bringing an extra defender down on the edge right where the play was going to go (vs the 2004 version which had the TE shift from left to right - drawing attention to the right side) - then in 2004 version Bledsoe takes the snap and does a hard fake sneak to the right (whre the TE had shifted - presumably to block), drawing even more attention to that side - while 2021 version Josh barely takes a 1/4 step "fake" then stands back and chucks it.  For trick plays the devil is in the details - if they actually practiced it in OTAs and TC they should have gotten the design/details right (the biggest thing was why change the design of the play that worked perfectly to have a receiver bring a defender down to where the fake was going to go - just stupid)

Actually McKenzie came in jet sweep motion, faking the jet sweep (he never came.into the backfield).  So it was designed to get the defense to hesitate or think it was going to the right or Josh on a a sneak.  Neither faked.out the Steelers.

 

In addition, it was poorly executed by Gilliam and Spencer Brown.  Go watch the replay, Brown gets tossed aside by Ingram and Gilliam doesn't get to the edge to block the corner.  

 

Either way it's over with and onto Miami

[jlgarsh]

I thought clock management in the 4th was atrocious too. They were slow getting to the line and could have gone for a TD first instead of a FG if they weren’t so slow. It seemed like they didn’t have a game plan for playing from behind, which I don’t get. It reminded me of the super bowl in 2004 where McNabb didn’t run the hurry up offense and the Eagles ran out of time to come back.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

Actually McKenzie came in jet sweep motion, faking the jet sweep (he never came.into the backfield).  So it was designed to get the defense to hesitate or think it was going to the right or Josh on a a sneak.  Neither faked.out the Steelers.

 

In addition, it was poorly executed by Gilliam and Spencer Brown.  Go watch the replay, Brown gets tossed aside by Ingram and Gilliam doesn't get to the edge to block the corner.  

 

Either way it's over with and onto Miami

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.

Look it, I agree.  Daboll can get too cute.

 

My original comment was to say this was a high risk/high reward type play call, and it backfired.  But we'd be all singing a different tune if it panned out. Daboll has had some creative gems in past seasons, this was not one of them.

 

Then this 2nd post was to simply explain what Daboll was trying to do schematically, which was very similar/same concept as the 2004 play.  Get defense thinking QB sneak, then pitch it wide to a speed back.  On top of that, the added jet motion was eye candy.  Obviously none of it worked and completely was blown up.

 

For the record, I'm just too risk averse to like a playcall in that situation.  Steelers had it defended, and this is why we have a Zack Moss RB, but with him not dressed, it hampers these situations.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

For the record, I'm just too risk averse to like a playcall in that situation.  Steelers had it defended, and this is why we have a Zack Moss RB, but with him not dressed, it hampers these situations.

 

Well, one justification for Gilleslee being dressed was that in preseason, he was used in a short yardage fullback role.  So there's that.

 

I wasn't trying to pick a nit with you, just reacting to your comment "I don't think it schematically was any different".  The problem with those kind of plays is that if you tamper with the details (eg small WR vs TE, moving in to the L vs moving across the formation to the R) you may tamper with features that sell the play and make it work. 

[3rdand12]

17 hours ago, PolishDave said:

 

Seemed to me in that game that having more than 3 receivers out there for Allen was kind of a waste anyway.    If he isn't going to throw the ball to the checkdown guy(s), then why even have those guys out there running routes?   May as well have extra blockers to give time for the deep routes to develop.

 

If the Bills are going to continue to flood the field with that many receivers, then Allen has to have the maturity to throw to the guys who are going to be open with regularity there, the ckeckdown short route runner.

 

It would also help if we had short route runners that were exceptional at the run after catch.    All those years of watching the Patriots throw 4 yard passes that some midget receiver would turn into 10-12 yard gains comes to mind.   A Tyreek Hill would be nice.

Bills under Josh's tenure never throw to check downs or block and release guys like Singletary. so how would we know if Bills have good RAC options ?  lol
 

I agree with you. And I might guess Josh does too.

the game has always been about a willingness to take what the defense gives you

17 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I think one of his flaws is just that he gets too cute 

and or arrogant ?

[Coach Tuesday]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

 

Relatedly - Ingram was a late free agent pickup for the Steelers.  You telling me we couldn't have gotten that guy and saved our second round pick for something more useful in 2021, like a guard?  Beane throws away his 2nd rounders like candy.

[3rdand12]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So you've just called out one way it was schematically different - it looks like a TE motioning into the 'pile o' blockers' in the 2004 version, adding credibility to the idea it's a QB sneak.  No one is worried about McKenzie adding to the pile, and the jet sweep stuff hadn't faked the Stillers out earlier in the game.

 

Then the other point is that we were failing to properly block Ingram All. Freakin'. Game.  Dawkins got spun like a prayer wheel.  So, now in a critical play on the game, we're going to go all gimmicky and put our success on the shoulders of a raw rookie OLman to do what our "franchise" LT has been failing at, all game?

 

Sometimes I feel Daboll gets too entrenched in his Ivory tower thinking about the X's and O's and gets totally divorced from the Jimmies and the Joes who have to make it work.  He also gets too cute thinking about "well if we do this then the defense will do that" and doesn't talk to Frazier or McDermott or Hughes or Milano or whoever to get a reality check "ah, OK, coach, if I saw this, I'd actually think...."

 

I saw that a lot in 2018 and a bit in 2019 and I thought experience had drawn it out of him, like a poultice draws an infection, but it turns out it was only festering under the skin and waiting to erupt.

Poultice and prayer wheels. Not bad for a conversation about Football details

[Locomark]

On 9/13/2021 at 3:45 PM, SectionC3 said:

I loved the flea flicker.  Great call, just didn’t work. 

I hate any pass play that has only 1 receiver in a pattern. What an awful design.